Discussion: Arelith’s Getting Too Big?

[Seven Sons of Sin]

(This feedback is largely based on the exploration of the new areas around Minmir, Guldorand, and the Skull Crags.)

Holy yikes is this area beautiful and way too large.

I’m not sure what the design principle is for much of these areas. I’ve welcomed a lot of the new areas and zones for Arelith that have been added under Irongron’s watch. I’ve becoming increasingly wary of much of these “large” maps, but optimistic. But a lot of these new areas have me scratching my head.

Why, exactly, do these areas need to be so absolutely large?

Is Arelith’s new design intent for wilderness to be incentivizing horses? Riding?

If you wander through some of these new zones, they just go on, and on, and on. I’m all for wilderness expansion. I’m all for new frontiers. Heck, I played a Knight of the Road who just wandered the isle. I loved wandering.

But this takes the enjoyment out of wandering. The lack of “density” in some of these new locales really makes walking around a struggle. Am I doing something wrong? Are these areas supposed to be “dungeons” and not just… the wilderness space between settlements?

Is Arelith’s population increasing at such a dramatic rate that we need to not only add more zones, but “giant” zones?

Can we not achieve the same new sense of exploration but make crossing a new zone from corner take a few minutes rather than… over 5?

What is equally frustrating is that some of these new areas are just… areas. They feel like a geographic simulation of how terrain should realistically shift. Which is fine. Maybe that’s the point? To make Arelith feel more “real”? But if so, this level of quasi-realism for area design means that the areas don’t feel purposeful. Like, there should be something *cool* to see. A ruin. A relic. A natural wonder. I don’t know, something that draws me to it.

Or am I just supposed to be caught up in how pretty the trickling streams look?

Maybe there’s server logistics that I’m not aware about, but I almost feel like Arelith should be making things *more dense*, not more spread out. More layered, more likelihood of running into someone. But that’s not going to happen in new Minmir, new Guldorand, and new Skull Crags because my god does it just go on forever.

[PeterRasta]

As someone who feels very much the same, I'd be just as interested in hearing about some of the behind-the-scenes design reasonings for these new, vast areas.

In particular, if we can expect old areas as they are overhauled with the new HAK content to be getting the same treatment?

[Sockss]

They're very pretty.

Though I've got similar gripes with them. They feel like a screenshot showcase for NWN assets, but not a functioning area for a game.

They're also really inefficient when it comes to the rising population, as you'll not reset spawns.

For me, the fun with wandering is stumbling on other people. Exploration is all well and good, but that's just a once-only thing. Reducing the number of portals would be great for that, but I can't get behind it when it takes so long to get from a-b without them.

[Void]

Skal has one of the humongous zones too. There are multiple huge areas in the middle, which take forever to traverse. While you're there, they do look nice, but it is just you, the cold, and the legion of neutral deer there.

I think zones that do not fit into fully zoomed out minimap window may be overkill, and what's more they won't really play well with arelith spawn system. A player you'll never meet may be blocking area spawns, for example.

[CookieMonster]

I recently found myself wandering from the Deep Kiln, to the Goblin village and onto the Surface around the new Minmir Area. The former two was very fun, they are quite large but they are dense and their is a lot of things to look out. The Goblin village did push the line a little with it's Maze like layout.

However, once I hit Minmir and began to explore I used a lens, because the "You are in a canyon between cliffs, you are on a flat plain between cliffs" really makes it difficult to actually see the area you are in due to camera angle limitations. Not to mention Pathfinding is a NIGHTMARE when their are all of these inclines and declines.

[Aradin]

I agree. I'd prefer denser, more packed areas with locations of interest and a higher chance of meeting other players.

As for the dev goals behind big areas, I know that Irongron favours large areas so that's been a push behind the bigger new areas. I can't quite remember all the reasoning behind it though; maybe a dev will chime in.

*Edit: I'd prefer denser, more packed areas when it comes to things like traveling between settlements and general RP areas. For dungeons I'm happy to have it be a larger area. Just my two cents.

[Irongron]

I'm not fond of repeating the same points in duplicate threads, but will do so again here.

I should begin by saying, as before, a lot of this will simply come down to taste. Personally I like large wilderness, and have long felt Arelith too dense. I understand some people may feel otherwise, but ultimately, as always, I'm going to build the server I'd like to see.

Anyway, to the practical reasons...

1. Rare Encounters

These only work ir there is space for them. I've added hundreds, and hope to eventually add thousands more.

They do not require an area to be vacant in order to reset, so that isnt an issue.

Some of these new wilderness areas have a lot of these, but they are mostly 'off road' to reward exploration.

2. Resources.

It used to be the case Arelith had many, now we have a great deal. Rather than need to place then in dungeons, large wilderness allows me to place them in the upon without being in plain sight.

Once again this is an area where exploration can be rewarded l.

3. Viability of horses, caravans, portals.

All of these provide for quick or instant travel, and all are superfluous when it takes less than 3rl minutes to walk between settlements (which was the case - it is still VERY short).

So long as provide means of fast travel, and nexus points where PCs naturally meet, we absolutely can expand wilderness. If one doesnt like wandering? You are not obliged to.

4. Nwn asset limit.

A couple of months ago Arelith broke down, because we went above a 16,000 asset limit, on each server areas account for 1000 of these. We made some changes to buy us some space, but unless NwN gets updated this will continue to lurk on our horizon.

It is sensible to plan for. - merchants sharing conversations, multi function scripts and, of course, larger areas. These also allow for future dungeon/feature addition without needing to make more space in which to fit them.

It is currently absolutely vital that we conserve assets wherever possible. 1 large area is 2, six smaller ones, 12.

5. Well, there is no 5, really, I just wanted to reiterate that even if the above 4 were not considerations, I would likely still do this. I love a feeling of scale, and absolutely DO stop to 'admire how pretty a stream is'. This didn't start with Minmir, I've been expanding wilderness since I took over - swamps, jungle, trading route, Upperdark, Lowerdark; Sibayad, the list goes on and on, all used to be TINY.

[TimeAdept]

I do think it would be worth bearing in mind at least one factor: The spawns resetting. Especially in wilderness areas that see moderate travel for are also used for writs, this can keep areas empty for inordinate amounts of time. You could consider looking at areas like this, and transitioning them over to that 'rare spawn' system, where monsters can refresh without a zone being empty/untravelled for the ticks it takes to respawn them. This might not be a bad thing for spawn areas in general, but definitely for travelled wildernesses.

[Exordius]

Huge density not only is not fun but causes lag and crashes. My last server was incredibly dense with most towns and dungeons literally next door to each other with almost nothing in-between. That server crashes dozens of times each day, has super lag 75% of the time, and often goes down and takes days or even weeks for the devs to get it back up and running. Main reason i came to Arelith was because the world actually felt like a world and it took time to get places... there were areas in between instead of all the towns being one transition away from each other. I fully support Irongron on this... making the server smaller will not make things better it will make them worse.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

I can see the point the OP is making and I can see the point Irongron is making.

When changes were made between Cordor and Bendir - new nature areas felt like they were popping into existence. This feels odd to the psyche. When new castles and dwellings got created it felt like they were being 'squeezed' in. On the Isle of Skal the vast central Tundra and large forests are 'real estate' that is as yet uncivilized. It does feel more natural.

A horse culture is definitely lacking on Skal. Those stocky, long-maned viking ponies (research info on Icelandic horses for a RL comparison) are definitely a desireable means for transport.

So you want horses for regular non-knight travel? Player ingenuity people! Make it happen!

[Wuthering]

I think they work best as optional areas to explore occasionally. Getting lost in enormous areas can be fun as something different when you're in the mood. But something like the tundras in Skal that have to be traversed over and over to get anywhere could really stand to be smaller since the novelty of the size gets old the tenth time crossed that day or week.

My desktop does okay with them but I play on an older laptop sometimes and the immense areas really struggle to load and sometimes fail completely (just get stuck on the area transition screen and have to kill the game.) Or when they do load they're so slow and buggy I have to give up.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Nope. The bigger the better in my opinion, and I love all of these new maps so far. I'm a nook and cranny explorer, and while I made the mistake of exploring some of these nooks and crannies alone and ended up in the fugue as a result they seem awesome for a small group to go out and explore. Also, goblin town is easily my new favorite pre epic dungeon, because I can't just auto pilot it solo like everything else.

[PeterRasta]

I'm of the opinion (popular or not) that Arelith doesn't have the population to support such vast areas without immediately imparting a sense of scarcity or lack of players abouts if redeveloped this way across the board, only further exaggerated by adding to the number of towns (and sizes thereof) on the module, when players have found issue already for years with Cordor alone being split up across 2 (or 4) areas, making it seem desolate in off-hours.

Less density and a wider population spread would only exacerbate this further.

Luckily I can traverse these vast areas rather rapidly owing to haste wands should I want to, I guess I'm just concerned random NPC encounters might very well soon outnumber random PC encounters if everything is expanded upon this way.

I know which one I'd prefer, and which ultimately would be the most interactive.

EDIT; To clarify, it isn't just about taste. Its about the viability in regards to sustaining player-to-player frequency of interaction across the module.

[strong yeet]

Areas don't need to be enormous. Dungeons especially suffer from this design trend of maximum-size areas, where the respawn script (which goes by area) is simply incompatible. This is saying nothing of the many performance/crashing issues big areas have (Hello Sencliff, hello Cordor, hello Kohlingen, etc.)

I doubt there will be any changes to the respawn system, so I wonder why area sizes keep getting bigger and bigger. It's not like this is anything new; even "old" content like the Orclands had this to a much more minor degree.

[Irongron]

Areas don't need to be enormous. Dungeons especially suffer from this design trend of maximum-size areas, where the respawn script (which goes by area) is simply incompatible. This is saying nothing of the many performance/crashing issues big areas have (Hello Sencliff, hello Cordor, hello Kohlingen, etc.)

I doubt there will be any changes to the respawn system, so I wonder why area sizes keep getting bigger and bigger. It's not like this is anything new; even "old" content like the Orclands had this to a much more minor degree.

I think it is true that the default spawn system has an issue here, and at very least I should increase the amount of rare spawns in such locations.

However the new areas have zero stability problems. The nature of these tilesets means they do not require extensive placeable work, sometimes barely at all. Performance is great across the board wherever they have been used.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Here's my issue. Writs tell me to go West of Bendir or North of Guldorand to do dungeons appropriate for my level. I go in those directions and am greeted with overpowered mobs that even level 30 characters belonging to the most overpowered classes seem to have trouble dealing with. I won't be able to do the lumberjacks writ for example until I am way too high of a level to get paid for it because there are birds the size of houses that I need a level 30 totem druid to deal with. I'm fine with having higher level content for epic characters. But why do you stick this higher level content right between settlements and dungeons I need to do for writs as a level 12-16 character?

[Marisakis]

Currently, Arelith appears to be layered with a fairly simple design philosophy in mind: the further away from starting areas and towns, the more difficult enemies become. This however seems to, for some reason, come with immensely populated areas even when travelling to and from dungeons or writ areas. We're talking dozens of animals, bugbears and whatnot spawning, with for example the hobgoblins not really having an area to call 'home'. They just.. live there? The balance system exists to give the server some variation in this, but I honestly feel like some travel without constant encounters should be permissable.

I am a fan of large, wild areas, too. I remember servers where you could just sit at the top of a waterfall, quietly chat, and NOT have to worry every moment that a mob would assault you. Perhaps Arelith is meant to be more rougher, and frontier, but still.. Would it be a problem for this resource limit, to have a network of areas that are more like 'roads'? Safer, with only the occasional encounter? Then dungeons and writ areas could be layered or sandwiched in between, possibly but rarely acting as shortcuts.. And we could have forest areas that act as these roads too, even if less travelled, not being obvious 'hostile' territory.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

I am a fan of large, wild areas, too. I remember servers where you could just sit at the top of a waterfall, quietly chat, and NOT have to worry every moment that a mob would assault you. Perhaps Arelith is meant to be more rougher, and frontier, but still.. Would it be a problem for this resource limit, to have a network of areas that are more like 'roads'? Safer, with only the occasional encounter? Then dungeons and writ areas could be layered or sandwiched in between, possibly but rarely acting as shortcuts.. And we could have forest areas that act as these roads too, even if less travelled, not being obvious 'hostile' territory.

I agree - exploring and poking around and discovering the remote and wild areas is one of my favourite things in Arelith and although the adaptational weirdness of 'oh wow they shoved way more in between these two places than used to be there' when we get areas redone is definitely a thing, I think it's just a consequence of this being a game and it's worth it happening rarely for the cool new areas.

Indeed, I'm constantly blown away by how many dungeons or areas link together by off-the-beaten-path routes, semi-secret transitions, and connected wilderness or cave systems. They do make me sad sometimes that knowing all these secret routes and wilderness trails has little RP relevance beyond exploring because of the proliferation of so many kinds of efficient and accessible fast travel - but for reasons discussed here and elsewhere, I do realise the fast travel is a necessary concession to not everyone enjoying that kind of play and everyone (me included) having real life restrictions on time in game.

All that said, it grates on me sometimes how bewilderingly lethal ostensibly commonly-used major travel routes are, and I would always appreciate the roads being much safer - maybe only being dangerous if the -balance system was out of balance and/or with the occasional rare encounter - whilst heading 'off road' remaining increasingly dangerous.

I can respect the design decision either way though - the design setup of 'these are the small safe areas at Lv3-5, and your bubble will gradually grow outwards from there as you level up' is consistent and easy to understand, and I can see why there could be a strategic decision that it's worth the weirdness of common threats on major roadways which would be lethal to 99.99%+ of the residents of Arelith.

[AstralUniverse]

So when I came back from a break during the transition to EE I made a character in Skal and I was so bored in the empty tundra.

It took me a while and a movement speed nerf to a certain class might have something to do with it but eventually I got used and felt more appreciative towards the 'realism' it offers.

Then the Shyr, minmir and the crags were reworked and now I'm entirely sold I wouldnt want it any other way.

The thing I like the most is that you dont actually need to know the area to find resources /because/ it's large and realist. You need granite? Well, take a walk around a mountainside and there's plenty of stone everywhere if you climb a little. You need a certain herb? you WILL find it somewhere in the forest because it's large enough for all resources without them being too close and easy to find.

[Marsi]

I think it's all about balance, and distribution of hubs and points of interest. Arelith is very top heavy in that you have all these huge areas in the north, but in the south, or wherever there are older areas, we have legoland proportions.

Another thing, vastness doesn't always translate to more nooks and crannies. I like my sprawling expanse to be straightforward to travel but rewarding to step off the path -- hills and caves and little recesses for people to build hidden camps. Sometimes what we get is literally just a giant flat square eg. the quagmires. Time consuming to walk, but nothing to explore and nowhere to hide.

All this said, I much prefer the more matured geography Arelith has been getting. Its always felt very themeparky, a scattershot of obligatory fantasy locales, but now the landscape is really getting to be a character of its own. I empathize with people who hate travelling in open world games, but travel is an important part of fantasy and storytelling, and it's important its done right (which it rarely is).

ps. I'd love to see Arelith forest embiggened. I absolutely LOVED fixed level Arelith forest.

The thing I like the most is that you dont actually need to know the area to find resources /because/ it's large and realist. You need granite? Well, take a walk around a mountainside and there's plenty of stone everywhere if you climb a little. You need a certain herb? you WILL find it somewhere in the forest because it's large enough for all resources without them being too close and easy to find.

This is really important. If you want vast, realistic terrain, it needs to fit people's expectations. When the areas get too big for people to maintain a working memory of where every single resource is, a la diorama sized Arelith of old, they should be able to intuit that a mountain will yield stone.

[Morgy]

I prefer these massive areas myself.. I find the constant loading screens a lot more immersion breaking.

[chris a gogo]

I love exploring and finding new things.
The scale means you can walk along the road not explore 3/4 of the map to me that's great means I have a reason to wander around looking for new things to kill me.

So yes big fan of the new areas.

[RedGiant]

I see Iron's points and acknowledge all. The new tilesets are beautiful and places like Soulhaven have found a new and better life.

I do also sympathize with the OP however. I don't know if someone was there before me, but I have travelled through some of these v...a...s...t areas and occasionally found them utterly empty. This is terribly tedious if you are on foot. I think we're on to something with reexamining the spawn system in light of this new reality.

I also think these areas will mature over time. Some of them area amazingly detailed and improved, like the Viper-Temple, the Spriggan Lair, and Soulhaven. But /some/ of the entirely new content feels a little 'beta-release', like the caves o' slimes and bears (tm). I cannot wait to see the new Guldorland and, if you look for it, you can already seen the outlines of a vast and intricate interconnection taking shape. I'm sure the staff has more in store and, in their usual fashion, will continue to polish all.

[Void]

I see Iron's points and acknowledge all. The new tilesets are beautiful and places like Soulhaven have found a new and better life.

Actually I feel that grassy part on the new tiles around lake minmir and shyr doesn't quite look right. Something is odd about it, and it doesn't quite match the feel of the rest of the game. The inclines and bumps in the area also break line of sight spell targeting often, and make it difficult. For example, the nasty stone trench in one of the parts has stair-like incline, and when standing on top of it, it is very difficult to target things tha spawned even a half a level below.

Skal vast wilderness, in comparison, is great. Very atmospheric, just huge to the point of being tiring.

There are also good places in shyr/skull crags, with verticality and DEEEP chasms with entrances half way down. Those look good.

Just the grass feels weird.

Regarding new guldorand, I like the autumn feeling of it as it is now, and would be great if this wasn't destroyed.

[Straxus]

I haven't had any opportunity to visit any of these places, on my way to Guldorand, I died, not sure if this was one of the areas affected by this new change... but if it was... I absolutely loved the realistic feel. I have only seen a small percentage of the island... most of it I can't make it to, outside of taking a caravan or boat, because walking usually ends with my death.

I am totally fine with this fact though, because everytime I push through a little farther, and get a little stronger, and use more tactics in the areas I failed before.

I want the feel of being lost, not knowing that the next transition will take me to safety.

Plus... as for someone with outlandish ideas for what his character may attempt... maybe a new town might be settled? Or stronghold? Or a deep tunnel into the underdark!

It will help spread out the vast population, helping with Lag in the same places we always see it.

Give it time. Understand that there is a method to Iron's madness.