Discussion: Arelith’s Getting Too Big?

[Marsi]

Instead of increasing movement speed, horses should be more ubiquitous. General horse-riding outside of combat shouldn't require such an investment. I think a lot of the big areas were done with horses in mind, except most people aren't taking horse-riding because of the obfuscated mechanics and the unreasonable sacrifices it demands.

And I get the the bigger areas = less interactions argument, but I have just as sad memories of abandoned roads even on the old, tiny Arelith. In my mind it's entirely to do with travel convenience, and whether the current zeitgeist is more disposed to locked quarter RP.

Despite Skal's huge areas, I'm always running into people, likely because of there being no portals. I think there's a middle-ground between making everyone turtle crawl everywhere and instant gratification, and it would have a diversity of travel options that sensibly trade convenience for resources.

To put things into perspective, Arelith has a *long* way to go before it gets to "40 minutes IRL between two point of interest"-tier, like most other servers. What we've had is extreme austerity, and what we're seeing now is only nudging slightly away from that.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Instead of increasing movement speed, horses should be more ubiquitous. General horse-riding outside of combat shouldn't require such an investment. I think a lot of the big areas were done with horses in mind, except most people aren't taking horse-riding because of the obfuscated mechanics and the unreasonable sacrifices it demands.

And I get the the bigger areas = less interactions argument, but I have just as sad memories of abandoned roads even on the old, tiny Arelith. In my mind it's entirely to do with travel convenience, and whether the current zeitgeist is more disposed to locked quarter RP.

Despite Skal's huge areas, I'm always running into people, likely because of there being no portals. I think there's a middle-ground between making everyone turtle crawl everywhere and instant gratification, and it would have a diversity of travel options that sensibly trade convenience for resources.

To put things into perspective, Arelith has a *long* way to go before it gets to "40 minutes IRL between two point of interest"-tier, like most other servers. What we've had is extreme austerity, and what we're seeing now is only nudging slightly away from that.

To play the devils advocate here. It takes about 30 or so minutes at walking pace to get from nexus falls to new guldorand. Give or take about 5 minutes.


That being said I'm a big advocate for less portals and less, but BIGGER, areas. Both for performance and sanity reasons. Yes there are bugs associated with this but I think it'll be better long term.

[NauVaseline]

4. Nwn asset limit.

A couple of months ago Arelith broke down, because we went above a 16,000 asset limit, on each server areas account for 1000 of these. We made some changes to buy us some space, but unless NwN gets updated this will continue to lurk on our horizon.

Can't you just push things into hak's?

This would be the path forward.

[Sockss]

That being said I'm a big advocate for less portals and less, but BIGGER, areas. Both for performance and sanity reasons. Yes there are bugs associated with this but I think it'll be better long term.

Fewer, larger areas, will result in more players at once in those areas and a big performance decrease.

[Irongron]

Pushing areas and other resources into HAKs is something we will have to do eventually, and have discussed.

It's not really suitable for areas though, as these are more commonly adjusted and haks aren't ideal for frequent edits. We also have a limit to the size of our HAK if we want to remain on consoles.

As I already said though, I am not remotely considering reducing the size of any of these areas.

[Nitro]

It's not really suitable for areas though, as these are more commonly adjusted and haks aren't ideal for frequent edits. We also have a limit to the size of our HAK if we want to remain on consoles.

Are consoles really worth limiting ourselves for though? Typing on a console is finicky at best even if you have an actual keyboard plugged in to the console. At worst you see people standing still for several minutes just to type out short messages or relying entirely on voice lines.

To be honest, I don't think catering to a console/mobile experience (especially at the cost of the PC experience) is very healthy for a serious roleplaying environment.

[Kuma]

It's not really suitable for areas though, as these are more commonly adjusted and haks aren't ideal for frequent edits. We also have a limit to the size of our HAK if we want to remain on consoles.

Are consoles really worth limiting ourselves for though? Typing on a console is finicky at best even if you have an actual keyboard plugged in to the console. At worst you see people standing still for several minutes just to type out short messages or relying entirely on voice lines.

To be honest, I don't think catering to a console/mobile experience (especially at the cost of the PC experience) is very healthy for a serious roleplaying environment.

ravenloft made an rp-lite action version of their server for consoles and those that aren't as concerned for their gothic horror setup. could consider resurrecting the FL era with modern arelith mechanics (and not FL) for the console experience and save ourselves the hassle while still providing an experience.

[the grim yeeter]

I don't like the idea of sacrificing server and roleplay quality just for the sake of obtaining/maintaining a larger playerbase.

[Drowboy]

If it's genuinely that important for switch users to have Arelith Access (as a switch owner, straight up, the keyboard is terrible and there's much, much, much better games to spend my console bucks on, btw) I think an Arelith-lite action-y server is probably the way to go, assuming the numbers are even there.

Which I can't find. There's no posted sales data that I can track down for console buys, but given how bad the reviews seem to be, I'd be surprised if it was a noticeable percentage of EE sales. Putting Arelith into this sort of limiting scenario seems kind of arbitrary when there's other options for essentially lite-to-no-rp setups that doesn't compromise the rest of the server.

[Shadowy Reality]

I don't like the idea of sacrificing server and roleplay quality just for the sake of obtaining/maintaining a larger playerbase.

We kinda already have this. This is what RPR encompasses.

Absolutely nothing stops someone from treating arelith as an action server, where they just go from spawn to spawn killing things, buy things in shops and that is the extent of their interaction with the server.

That person will have RPR 0, but we do not send those people away unless they directly break rules or interfere with others' roleplay. As far as I know no one has ever been banned for just killing monsters, even if that effectively breaks rule number 1: role play. Note that I wouldn't want an Action Arelith server either, because I believe those type of players can slowly be drawn into roleplay.

[Marsi]

It took me a while to accept Arelith's new identity as a HAK server, it'd be disappointing to see the potential that has come with what was sacrificed cut short in order to facilitate yet another audience capture.

[Irongron]

There is a difference between choosing not to go live on consoles (something I did not do, do not regret, & is a call ultimately already made), and ending support for consoles by going over the download limit, of I think, 4gb (a figure already large enough to be off putting for new players on any machine).

I'm really not sure why this thread is still going. A sizeable group of players have said they enjoy the larger wilderness, I have said I will not reverse the approach, or remake areas that were a significant effort, and have explained, at length, my reasons, of which the HAK size topic plays a tiny part.

With increased player numbers and an active staff of more than 30, Arelith has very much evolved into a full time job for me, I love it, of course, but will absolutely follow my creative vision in content I produce for it (and encourage other devs to do the same).

I dont expect everyone to like it, but they can, especially if they choose to play here, at very least, respect that is absolutely our right. Constructive feedback is welcome, but posts that amount to "I personally don't like what you're doing, and so you should change it." really need to stop now.

[Sockss]

I do think the vast majority of players dislike the large area approach, admittedly I don't talk to everyone. I think that's also mirrored in this thread.

The reasoning you've given for the bigger areas doesn't really hold up and I posted some (very) brief rebuttals earlier, these things can be solved with changes elsewhere. I don't think it's fair to stomp on peoples opinions on the matter (I agree that it amounts to "I personally don't like what you're doing, and so you should change it.") when your own stance is similar ("I personally like what I'm doing so I'll continue to do it".)

Personally I think the thread's taken a constructive turn, with people trying to marry the RP we're all here for with these new large areas and make the best of it and no one is being rude or demanding you do anything, just offering suggestions to try and improve everyone's experience.

[Void]

It's not really suitable for areas though, as these are more commonly adjusted and haks aren't ideal for frequent edits. We also have a limit to the size of our HAK if we want to remain on consoles.

Are consoles really worth limiting ourselves for though? Typing on a console is finicky at best even if you have an actual keyboard plugged in to the console. At worst you see people standing still for several minutes just to type out short messages or relying entirely on voice lines.

To be honest, I don't think catering to a console/mobile experience (especially at the cost of the PC experience) is very healthy for a serious roleplaying environment.

ravenloft made an rp-lite action version of their server for consoles and those that aren't as concerned for their gothic horror setup. could consider resurrecting the FL era with modern arelith mechanics (and not FL) for the console experience and save ourselves the hassle while still providing an experience.

No, thanks. Quality is more valuable than quantity. There was already a thread about issues with swithc players.

[Kenji]

I made a poll specifically for this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28085

Cast your vote but leave the feedback here in this thread! I understand people often voice their opinions through posts, but some (like me) who prefer the big areas for exploration purposes and less loading screens may choose to remain silent for the most part.

[Straxus]

Keep it up... the more I explore (and ultimately make deadly mistakes) the more I love the server.

As I said before, some of you I think are really looking at this as a personal issue, and not what is best for the world itself.

Running the same dungeons gets tired, and one can only listen to uppity bantering, threats from superior races, and the who's who talking about what's what... sometimes it is nice to explore, and rush around killing things.

Eventually, you will run out... these added areas, just give a lot more room for expansion, of cities, strongholds, and the like.

The server I played years ago, never really expanded, and lost their player base for servers that did.

What really does it matter if the transition is three minutes, or ten minutes away. I don't see how this is really even an issue. Beside, Iron said it best... "I HAVE SPOKEN"

I think this should get locked.

We are all just repeating ourselves anyway.

[NMan7496]

Personally, I think some of the areas around Cordor and Bendir are too small. Arelith is supposed a large island that takes a LONG time to walk from end to end. The larger areas make traveling more immersive in my opinion, and allows for more RP while moving from place to place. The larger areas also allow for more detail to be put into them and, so, more of the nooks and crannies of the island are able to be shown.

Additionally, as someone who has issues with lagging and crashing in/around area transitions, having fewer of them is much nicer.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

As I already said though, I am not remotely considering reducing the size of any of these areas.

I think we can all probably call this conversation finished, friends.

[Straxus]

Personally, I think some of the areas around Cordor and Bendir are too small. Arelith is supposed a large island that takes a LONG time to walk from end to end. The larger areas make traveling more immersive in my opinion, and allows for more RP while moving from place to place. The larger areas also allow for more detail to be put into them and, so, more of the nooks and crannies of the island are able to be shown.

Additionally, as someone who has issues with lagging and crashing in/around area transitions, having fewer of them is much nicer.

Agree 100%.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I echo a lot of what Socksss has said.

I love wandering. Wandering is cool. Maybe there is a cultural shift occurring, but the smallness of previous iterations did allow for some likelihood of "on the road" roleplay. Now, it seems less so.

Maybe we just need more horses.

With the ease of fast travel mechanics, what *is* the reason these settlements are becoming so far apart?

It seems contradictory, no? Make Guldorand farther from the Radiant Heart, but there is still a twoway in Minmir- so what does the sense of scale accomplish?

I have become relying on portals and ship travel ironically much more than ever before. I love Guldorand and Brogendenstein and the Crows Nest because I can get to them quickly. I never go to Bendir anymore. Never. It is literally now more backwater than a tiny logging town in the mountains.

A lot out of my "routes" are dictated by their proximity to fast travel options. A lot of how I adventure is "looping" from the unknown back to a portal hub or ship location, rather than a linear journey furthur into the wilderness.

Making a bigger and bigger server but still having an abundance of really easy to access and fast travel zones seems incongruous.

How is this any different from suggestion way back of putting a banker and a kit seller in the Cordorian Mercantile building, so I dont have to travel 4 zones after I sell my loot just to deposit my gold?

There, we got rid of that needless "bloat". Maybe to some that is some kind of sandboxy simulation that folk enjoy - cool, I can respect that.

But the principle there is the same as the principle when it comes a vast expanse.

If anything, maybe I should be advocating for river-ferry that goes from Cordor to Bendir or something.

Because I bet you money the reason why you see activity in Arelith settlements is directly related to their ease of access.

Which really means pro-coastal settlements, and anti-interior.

Maybe this isnt helpful or "constructive" in some kind of tangible sense, but I think there is a systemic dilemma here that needs some clarification.

[the grim yeeter]

I dont expect everyone to like it, but they can, especially if they choose to play here, at very least, respect that is absolutely our right. Constructive feedback is welcome, but posts that amount to "I personally don't like what you're doing, and so you should change it." really need to stop now.

I do not think there is anyone here that does not respect this. It's your server. You decide what happens. We all know this, and we accept it. I think I speak for all of us when I say we value what you and the others do.

But I do not think players are wrong to think that they are able/allowed to give their opinion on these forums, even if they don't agree with something you and/or the other devs do?

[Huschpfusch]

I have not hat time yet to go explore the big areas. Just ran about the Bendir/Guldorand/Minmir maps once. At some points the summons or monsters would get stuck. But my only real issue then was it seemed not much NPCs and actual doable quests/writ was there (may have changed since then but I have not checked)
So I think, in adittion to regular spawns and rare spawns on the big maps there could be actual trigger spawn spots (e.g. a moss-covered menhir), that on click spawn a random encounter from the encounter palette tied to that spot. Clickable 1/24rl hours per character. And the big number of encounters means that even with a party of 6 there could be a different encounter all six times. So players might actually prepare in towns for spot point events. Which might as a sideeffect perhaps also increase the chance of randommeeting players on the big maps.
And there could be an open call for encounter ideas and quest NPCs or whatever other contentideas for bigmaps so the staff can more quickly create and shove new doable things into the big areas and they feel spacious but also full of actual adventure.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

Up until a month ago, I'd be leaning more on the camp of those thinking the module might be too big.

Because while poking around with a few alts for the past...three years, I often felt overwhelmed and lost in ways that did not feel like they were fun. However, most of those times, I'd be logging on for little more than one hour, be on my own with little to no rp during that time, and then leaving with the feeling that Arelith just wasn't for me anymore.

Cue to a few weeks ago, where I suddenly felt inspired to play one of those alts again, it all clicked, I found friends to play with again, and all of the sudden those same areas are a whole lot of fun to delve into, wander through, and get lost in.

My point being, a lot of this is on us, the players, too. We are given a sand box to play in, but we chose the shapes of the castles we build.


On a less abstract and pansy view of things, and getting more to the point:

- The horde of new areas and places feel beautiful and wild and real. I like it. Had I still been playing my shaundakulite ranger, Borin, when these were implemented, I would've had a field day.

- Sometimes they might feel a bit empty, and though I would not mind some more touches and details here and there to add a bit more depth, I also think part of that is on us, the players. There is a whooooole lot of free real estate for factions do stuff and try and create a presence on the module. This is true even in older areas. I remember when the last changes were added to the Arelith Forest (Ansrivar Pond, the ogre clearing and so on), and to this day, I am still amazed that so many of those corners and nooks and niches haven't been used for something (some have, over time.)

-I am not sure if anyone has looked into this system at all since Dunshine left the admin team, but there're tons, and I mean tons, of spots around these new areas just begging for the lasso/climbing/rappel system to be implemented. I have found none so far, and I don't think that's just because I am blind.

-Following from the above point, I know there's a long to do list, but since we have haks and a lot of crazy possibilities now, it would not be a bad idea to discuss new systems to implement that would add more ways to interact with the module, so that these areas could feel more alive, rather than like beautiful wallpapers.
- Maybe more stuff to do with shovels.
- Get really crazy and add canoes to somehow navigate the larger streams and bodies of water that criscross the island now.
- Add more information to the -tracks command, so that it speaks to the geography of the place, not just the spawns. It might not
be an insanely useful mechanical advantage, but since this is still an rp server, it could add cool flavor.
- This has been discussed before in different ways, but a means to "facilitate" rest while in the wilderness, like temporary
settlement "boosts" to food and rest meters if you have X item set down.
- Tinker with the spawning system a bit more, so that it might make it look like the world is living and changing even when our
characters are not there. I know those who prefer to play Arelith more like an mmorpg grind fest might not like this, but it'd be
cool if beyond the unique monsters, one could also see friction and conflict (or diplomacy!) between the different evil factions on
the island. Why do the ettins randomly stop once they get to the tree lines of the forest? Why don't they raid the bugbears? Or
join them for dwarf stew and a party?



And I could go on and on...

To sum up...I think it is all about potential, and there's a lot of it there. Not to mention that the population certainly has grown enough to support the expansion.

[DangerDolphin]

Would like to see:

- More horses
- Untrained horse riding on ponies (With severe combat penalties and spell failure if you have 0 ride, but you can still move quickly)
- Buffs to expeditious retreat speed and perhaps more travel spells
- Ranger movement speed bonuses (Maybe applied to their whole party, so they can RP guiding people through the areas)
- Small increase to the monk speed cap
- Removal of the silly package delivery walk speed thing, but keep the portal restrictions on it

[Iroh]

The question isn't really are areas too big. The question should be: "Do these new large areas have things to see and do." If an area is large for the sake of being large with absolutely nothing to do and see. I can see the problem.

However, they can easily add to them. Ruins, Towns, Forests, Dungeons, random buildings, mysterious lore, etc. (A hot springs run by a friendly Balor Lord named Steve). Okay, that last bit was a half-joke, but you get the idea.

Are the areas so large they cause performance issues on old and new hardware? If yes, then probably too big or crowded. If no, then likely no. However, each place should have something unique about it and to do/see. (Personally, I recommend some kind of landmark in a few of these zones. A random statue, A friendly Balor Lord named Steve, etc)

That said, areas should feel semi populated (animals, enemies, etc) unless it's something like the middle of the desert. Sand for miles.