Spellsword Feedback

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ASqueakyPitFiend
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Spellsword Feedback

Post by ASqueakyPitFiend » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:30 am

So I've played some full wizards in the past, and I've given spellsword a try. Looking at how they're set-up, I can see why they're barred from using certain epic spells and some commands.

Yoink: Feels similar to summoning a monster or planar creature, except summoning an actual person which they're already barred from summoning. Makes sense.

Epic Illusion: Just like above, falls under summoning a companion or etc. Makes sense.

So with that being said, it doesn't make too much sense that they're barred from certain Spell Foci commands such as Epic Abjuration, Epic Divination, or Epic Transmutation. I'm perhaps not seeing the big picture to it and I'll admit ignorance to it, though in my opinion it seems a bit misplaced to bar them from some interesting commands.

This is just my opinions, feel free to add in your thoughts if you agree with the current mechanics or feel that Spellswords should be given access to certain commands.

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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Royal Blood » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:12 am

I think I am okay with them not having epic spells though I mean why not? Clerics get them. But my bigger issue with the class has been warding

If you server transition your spell book like resets and you can ward. EXCEPT for Epic Mage Armour which is the most important.

Also, spell sword imbues tend to get stuck. You have to remove your weapon from your inventory if you want to change the imbue which is kinda annoying too.

Otherwise I think it's a nice class. The AC/Ab isn't overly powerful and you compensate with Imbues and a few spells. It's strong if used right and one of the few classes that can get enough lore comfortably to use WoF scrolls ontop of naturally using Disjunction
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by ASqueakyPitFiend » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:42 am

The refresher on spells is a bit of a problem. But I think that's more a coding bug than anything else. I like that they only get Epic Mage Armor and not like Hellball or G.Ruin. Personally I feel a melee combatant with Hellball would be grossly overpowered. A Melee Palemaster could achieve this but not without some heavy investment.

As far as the weapons, agreed. A bit annoying but it's not detrimental as I've found. My solution for it is either stuffing them in a Workstation, barrel, or put them in a trade screen. As long as they leave your inventory, you're good. Spellsword is a hot mess when it comes to scripting, and I don't envy the Devs when the times come when they have to make edits to the class. XD

As a melee combatant, it's pretty well rounded in it's AC vs AB and I can personally attest to the ability to get Lore to use WoF scrolls pretty easily. With some forethought and planning, you can get a pretty good build of spells and scrolls to become a very potent utility fighter. It'll be extremely interesting to see how Hexblade upsets/compliments this class.

In the end, I still think at least having the ability to use the Epic Abjurer commands or the scry command could be really neat.

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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Cataclysm of Iron » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:43 am

Royal Blood wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:12 am
Also, spell sword imbues tend to get stuck. You have to remove your weapon from your inventory if you want to change the imbue which is kinda annoying too.
I've found that

1) if you cast an imbue with an existing imbue, it just overwrites.
and
2) if you rest with your weapon equipped, the rest will dispel the imbue, but if you rest with it in your inventory it will remain.


I agree that only the Illusion and Conjuration epic spells are directly inconsistent with Spellsword limitations but I think the idea is just that generally an Epic Spellsword is never gonna be as much of 'complete' mage as a regular Wizard, and I can get behind that.
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by ASqueakyPitFiend » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:11 am

Cataclysm of Iron wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:43 am
Royal Blood wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:12 am
Also, spell sword imbues tend to get stuck. You have to remove your weapon from your inventory if you want to change the imbue which is kinda annoying too.
I've found that

1) if you cast an imbue with an existing imbue, it just overwrites.
and
2) if you rest with your weapon equipped, the rest will dispel the imbue, but if you rest with it in your inventory it will remain.
If you cross servers with imbues on or the server crashes. Resting tends to not dispel them. It's happened to me as well. Once that happens, you either have to do as I mentioned above, or wait for the duration to expire. A minor thing, but not really world ending

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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Royal Blood » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:49 am

In regards to the imbues it's been my experience that if you have 2 imbues on and you cast a new one it will get rid of both the old ones. Then, you cannot stack the new one. It's not the end of the world yeah just a quirk.

So you only get 1 imbue effect. Mine get stuck frequently.

I am wondering if maybe wizards should get a command to 'Dump' their rest like they drain themselves to lower the rest score.

When I was leveling and even now and even with alcohol if you're over 50% rest and happen to not have your spell book setup quite right you're kind of unplayable specifically in PVE etc. You just gotta sit around or go find a tavern which isn't always an option.
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:55 am

I know suggestions are closed, but Spellswords could really benefit from a -dispelimbues command or something similar.


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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Hunter548 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:13 pm

ASqueakyPitFiend wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:30 am
So I've played some full wizards in the past, and I've given spellsword a try. Looking at how they're set-up, I can see why they're barred from using certain epic spells and some commands.

Yoink: Feels similar to summoning a monster or planar creature, except summoning an actual person which they're already barred from summoning. Makes sense.

Epic Illusion: Just like above, falls under summoning a companion or etc. Makes sense.

So with that being said, it doesn't make too much sense that they're barred from certain Spell Foci commands such as Epic Abjuration, Epic Divination, or Epic Transmutation. I'm perhaps not seeing the big picture to it and I'll admit ignorance to it, though in my opinion it seems a bit misplaced to bar them from some interesting commands.

This is just my opinions, feel free to add in your thoughts if you agree with the current mechanics or feel that Spellswords should be given access to certain commands.
The original reason was because when Spellswords were first in development (2-3ish years ago?), they were significantly stronger than they are currently; they had int modifier to damage, they had higher AC, they got four APR for free, they had 300 damage DOTs from acid imbue, fire imbue was a much bigger penalty to ac, they had armor imbues, etc. The fear amongst the various people giving input on it (I was one of them, though YCE and kirito were the ones actually coding the class) was that if they also had access to -scry or whatever that they'd completely replace normal wizards and sorcerers. Some of the ESF bonuses (-scry, and especially -ward_teleport) have very large implications for PvP balance and would have given them even more power - and at the time they were competing with bards for strongest class in the game.

In the years since with spellswords having been brought back into line you could probably make an argument it wouldn't skew balance too much, but with the recent timestop change I'm of the mind that the various -commands (and Mords/Mass Haste) are the only thing keeping vanilla mages relevant. So unfortunately, it's still probably not a good idea for intra-class balance reasons.
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by ASqueakyPitFiend » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:02 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:55 am
I know suggestions are closed, but Spellswords could really benefit from a -dispelimbues command or something similar.
100% agree with this
MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:55 am
The original reason was because when Spellswords were first in development (2-3ish years ago?), they were significantly stronger than they are currently; they had int modifier to damage, they had higher AC, they got four APR for free, they had 300 damage DOTs from acid imbue, fire imbue was a much bigger penalty to ac, they had armor imbues, etc. The fear amongst the various people giving input on it (I was one of them, though YCE and kirito were the ones actually coding the class) was that if they also had access to -scry or whatever that they'd completely replace normal wizards and sorcerers. Some of the ESF bonuses (-scry, and especially -ward_teleport) have very large implications for PvP balance and would have given them even more power - and at the time they were competing with bards for strongest class in the game.

In the years since with spellswords having been brought back into line you could probably make an argument it wouldn't skew balance too much, but with the recent timestop change I'm of the mind that the various -commands (and Mords/Mass Haste) are the only thing keeping vanilla mages relevant. So unfortunately, it's still probably not a good idea for intra-class balance reasons.
I was around when Spellsword was originally released and I honestly forgot they had all that stuff. I recall them being able to imbue their armor as well which got removed. So I can see now why they were barred from the commands. This makes sense, back then. Now, I'm still in the mind that they could benefit from Spell Commands without being unbalanced to normal wizards. Certainly not all of the Spell Commands, but a select few. As far as Epic Spells go, I feel they're good where they are. Just getting EMA is enough.

Regardless, these are some pretty good responses. Keep them coming.

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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Royal Blood » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:14 pm

I think that even if Spellswords had access to epic spells. (The unique ones like scry, teleport, etc not hell ball and stuff.) They would still be okay and not quite replace Wizards.

I am not sure what other builds are out there but the one I've been using for like a year now only has 1 epic spell focus in Transmutation. Because we have to choose feats for Melee combat a Spellsword still isn't as 'good' a caster as an actual caster. So there remains a difference in choosing those two pathes.

Really, I don't think the spell swords actual 'spells' are any good beyond their self buffing. The only 2 offensive spells I really have are disjunction and Greater missile storm. Otherwise -everything- else is used for warding and imbue. I think that remains a distinct difference in play style from pure wizards/casters.

If my spellsword could use epic spells right now the only thing she would gain is the ability to create portals for people to use. Again with this build I only have 1 epic spell school. I suspect other Spellswords are in a similar boat? I've not seen too many epic ones though.
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Straxus » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:05 pm

I chose a different route with mine.

My go to spells outside of bluffs are fireball, Evard's Black Tentacles, and now hold monster.
Sound lance was huge at lower levels.

I am not even close to anything Epic anyway, but I think the feats I have chosen along the way probably would have negated the options anyway.

I use two longsword regardless of the penalties, because I was basically rebuilding a fighter mage from a 90s pen and paper game.

I think the lack of access to certain spells and the barred school is a great trade off for the power of launching a fireball while surrounded, and not taking any real damage for the next few rounds.

As far as the imbues go. I use incendiary cloud on one for the D12 fire damage, and Ball lightening for the D8, + the fact that lightening then hits other creatures around you.

That effect at low levels as well really helped keep me alive when I was very weak.
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by ASqueakyPitFiend » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:04 am

Royal Blood wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:14 pm
I think that even if Spellswords had access to epic spells. (The unique ones like scry, teleport, etc not hell ball and stuff.) They would still be okay and not quite replace Wizards.

I am not sure what other builds are out there but the one I've been using for like a year now only has 1 epic spell focus in Transmutation. Because we have to choose feats for Melee combat a Spellsword still isn't as 'good' a caster as an actual caster. So there remains a difference in choosing those two pathes.

Really, I don't think the spell swords actual 'spells' are any good beyond their self buffing. The only 2 offensive spells I really have are disjunction and Greater missile storm. Otherwise -everything- else is used for warding and imbue. I think that remains a distinct difference in play style from pure wizards/casters.

If my spellsword could use epic spells right now the only thing she would gain is the ability to create portals for people to use. Again with this build I only have 1 epic spell school. I suspect other Spellswords are in a similar boat? I've not seen too many epic ones though.
My go to for spells are saveless damage spells. As a two weapon fighter, I am very limited on spell slots but I still make it work.

No Save Spells: IGMS, ILMS, Avasculate Mass (Yes it does have a save, but even if the person makes the save it's still 25% Current HP loss), Cloudkill (again, it does have a save, but even if the person passes, they are losing con points), and Darkbolt.

If you are someone that uses a 1H weapon and no shield, you'll have more spell slots to work with to fit these spells in. These are great combat openers. Offensive spells that get you a distinct advantage from the start.

Cloudkill is friendly fire, yes, probably not recommended in group fights unless your party has shadow shield on or negative energy protection. A.Mass is a must have combat opener in the fact that round 1 of any combat, you've just cut your enemy's HP but a minimum of 25%-50% and they could do nothing about it. It's a ranged touch attack, yes, but if you're a spellsword, odds are you will have Blind Fight which will apply to your spells thus theoretically negating miss chance from Imp. Invis, and even then if you got a Dispel, just dispel their invis. A maximized IGMS for guaranteed 120dmg, assuming you have at least 2 prepared, boom you've just effectively neutralized an enemy Tank or at the very least made them retreat from the frontline or use resources to heal themselves instead of attacking. These methods work ever more amazingly in PvE if you have the a good party to follow up with you.

I also like to use the tentacle spells. Pretty useful if you need Battlefield control and want to split up your enemy in a PvP encounter.

Feel free to ping me if you'd like some feedback on the build. I've had a lot of fun playing Spellsword for the first time ever these past 3 months and I like to think I've got a good handle on it. But at the same time, every build can be different and what may work and fit my playstyle may not work for you, but I'm here to help how I can.

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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Straxus » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:25 am

ASqueakyPitFiend wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:04 am
Royal Blood wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:14 pm
I think that even if Spellswords had access to epic spells. (The unique ones like scry, teleport, etc not hell ball and stuff.) They would still be okay and not quite replace Wizards.

I am not sure what other builds are out there but the one I've been using for like a year now only has 1 epic spell focus in Transmutation. Because we have to choose feats for Melee combat a Spellsword still isn't as 'good' a caster as an actual caster. So there remains a difference in choosing those two pathes.

Really, I don't think the spell swords actual 'spells' are any good beyond their self buffing. The only 2 offensive spells I really have are disjunction and Greater missile storm. Otherwise -everything- else is used for warding and imbue. I think that remains a distinct difference in play style from pure wizards/casters.

If my spellsword could use epic spells right now the only thing she would gain is the ability to create portals for people to use. Again with this build I only have 1 epic spell school. I suspect other Spellswords are in a similar boat? I've not seen too many epic ones though.
My go to for spells are saveless damage spells. As a two weapon fighter, I am very limited on spell slots but I still make it work.

No Save Spells: IGMS, ILMS, Avasculate Mass (Yes it does have a save, but even if the person makes the save it's still 25% Current HP loss), Cloudkill (again, it does have a save, but even if the person passes, they are losing con points), and Darkbolt.

If you are someone that uses a 1H weapon and no shield, you'll have more spell slots to work with to fit these spells in. These are great combat openers. Offensive spells that get you a distinct advantage from the start.

Cloudkill is friendly fire, yes, probably not recommended in group fights unless your party has shadow shield on or negative energy protection. A.Mass is a must have combat opener in the fact that round 1 of any combat, you've just cut your enemy's HP but a minimum of 25%-50% and they could do nothing about it. It's a ranged touch attack, yes, but if you're a spellsword, odds are you will have Blind Fight which will apply to your spells thus theoretically negating miss chance from Imp. Invis, and even then if you got a Dispel, just dispel their invis. A maximized IGMS for guaranteed 120dmg, assuming you have at least 2 prepared, boom you've just effectively neutralized an enemy Tank or at the very least made them retreat from the frontline or use resources to heal themselves instead of attacking. These methods work ever more amazingly in PvE if you have the a good party to follow up with you.

I also like to use the tentacle spells. Pretty useful if you need Battlefield control and want to split up your enemy in a PvP encounter.

Feel free to ping me if you'd like some feedback on the build. I've had a lot of fun playing Spellsword for the first time ever these past 3 months and I like to think I've got a good handle on it. But at the same time, every build can be different and what may work and fit my playstyle may not work for you, but I'm here to help how I can.
Tentacles are a must if you alone 90% of the time. I found the only things not affected by them are smaller creatures and snakes! I am sure there are more... but lower levels tentacles are a must. Lightening and fireball, I found are more effective in solo combat, unless you have a group that understands what a wizard can really do... even a spellsword.

I cannot use necromancy, so I am losing the negative energy drains... but I have found my rhythm thus far, and it works for me.
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Royal Blood » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:32 am

Hm! I think negative energy is super important for PVE. I did negative and electric. The amount of health the negative energy gives is really amazing. Aoe from electric was cool to
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Straxus » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:00 pm

I chose for ic reasons not to use a basically evil tool... that was why I chose to block necromancy... next time... I am definately not doing that. LOL

Necromancy has a lot of great spells I can't touch, however, I like that I made him this way. More challenging.
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Ithildurnew2 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:13 am

Straxus wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:00 pm
I chose for ic reasons not to use a basically evil tool... that was why I chose to block necromancy... next time... I am definately not doing that. LOL

Necromancy has a lot of great spells I can't touch, however, I like that I made him this way. More challenging.
Some clarification might be necessary here. The school of Necromancy itself is not evil. It's not bright and happy cheery and many characters may find it distasteful, but it's not evil. Heck, pre 3.x edition, all cure spells, raise dead, etc were in the Necromancy school.

Neither are energy/life/HP draining properties/magic. Canonically, FR has Elfblades (which are clearly good aligned and reject non good aligned wielders) with the property that drains HPs from targets and heals the wielder.

To further clarify, Evil spells are clearly indicated with the Evil descriptor in 3.x edition - stuff like animating corpses, some spells that cause effects that are extremely graphic/grotesque and torturously painful (like flailing the skin off of living creatures) etc.

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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:43 am

Ithildurnew2 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:13 am
Some clarification might be necessary here. The school of Necromancy itself is not evil. It's not bright and happy cheery and many characters may find it distasteful, but it's not evil. Heck, pre 3.x edition, all cure spells, raise dead, etc were in the Necromancy school.

Neither are energy/life/HP draining properties/magic. Canonically, FR has Elfblades (which are clearly good aligned and reject non good aligned wielders) with the property that drains HPs from targets and heals the wielder.

To further clarify, Evil spells are clearly indicated with the Evil descriptor in 3.x edition - stuff like animating corpses, some spells that cause effects that are extremely graphic/grotesque and torturously painful (like flailing the skin off of living creatures) etc.
Thank you. I got tired of being treated the same as every animator and fiend summoner just because I used a negative energy weapon imbue. It annoys me people will literally pull stuff out of their butts that isn't found in any source book or wiki to justify their character's draconian views on necromancy.
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:13 pm

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:43 am
Thank you. I got tired of being treated the same as every animator and fiend summoner just because I used a negative energy weapon imbue. It annoys me people will literally pull stuff out of their butts that isn't found in any source book or wiki to justify their character's draconian views on necromancy.
There is nothing wrong with PCs taking this approach, and that is something to be dealt with IC.
Makes perfect sense to look at necromancers with caution, perhaps even hate, or fear. Not all PCs are educated on the intricacies of Necromancy.

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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:37 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:13 pm
NPC Logger Number 2 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:43 am
Thank you. I got tired of being treated the same as every animator and fiend summoner just because I used a negative energy weapon imbue. It annoys me people will literally pull stuff out of their butts that isn't found in any source book or wiki to justify their character's draconian views on necromancy.
There is nothing wrong with PCs taking this approach, and that is something to be dealt with IC.
Makes perfect sense to look at necromancers with caution, perhaps even hate, or fear. Not all PCs are educated on the intricacies of Necromancy.
I'm talking about people acting like they are educated about it IC and then pulling lore out of their butts on an OOC level just to push senseless conflict. Like if I saw a monk with purple eyes and I said ICly, "Everyone knows that glowing purple eyes means that you are a warlock who made a pact with Asmodeus!" and then told people OOCly it is on the wiki (it isn't) when they politely tried to tell me I'm wrong IC or OOC. I've got this kind of treatment just from having a glowing red weapon and it's a bit ridiculous.

Edit: It's fine to be wrong IC. It's fine to be wrong OOC. But if you're going to demonize someone's character and claim they are ushering in the apocalypse then cite sources OOCly at least check those sources to make sure you're right or at least that your character would have a legit reason to believe those claims even if they are wrong.
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:02 pm

Back on Topic: Spellsword is a pretty strong class but I feel it is a bit overrated after playing one. First off, not being able to summon is a reasonable limitation, but being barred from a whole other school of magic besides conjuration can really hurt, since you are effectively barred from two whole schools unless you count a few spells you'll never use like Flame Arrow. Second, to get the most out of the class in melee, you really need to dip in fighter, weaponmaster, and/or monk. But by doing so you lower your CL to the point your wards will be dispelled easily in PVE and even more so in PVP. After the recent changes to how dispels are calculated I noticed my Spellsword's wards getting stripped off in dungeons when that previously did not happen. So that was a big nerf to any Spellsword with more than three levels dipped in another class. I ended up rolling my Spellsword character because it did not perform as well as I'd of liked, though it is partly my fault for choosing illusion as the forbidden school when I should have probably picked divination and just gave up premonition instead of improved invisibility. It would have been nice if I could cast illusion spells from Mundane Items like the Displacer Beast Cloak, that might have salvaged the character. Unfortunately spells from your forbidden school can't even be cast with Mundane Items which makes no sense to me since I thought it wasn't supposed to technically be magic?
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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Chosen Son » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:55 pm

Being able to mass haste, and mord, Spellswords have already replaced much of the functionality of normal (not shadowmage, spellsword, wildmage) wizards.

In our current save meta, with evo combo having being gutted, epic spells are largely the last things remaining to regular wizards that spellswords dont already get. (Summons having situational use, but after the last rounds of nerfs, they too are weakened to the point that they are largely useful against soft targets or inexperienced players.)

It is already a bad idea to play a normal wizard over the alternatives, lets not comparatively weaken them further.

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Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:03 pm

Chosen Son wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:55 pm
Being able to mass haste, and mord, Spellswords have already replaced much of the functionality of normal (not shadowmage, spellsword, wildmage) wizards.

In our current save meta, with evo combo having being gutted, epic spells are largely the last things remaining to regular wizards that spellswords dont already get.

It is already a bad idea to play a normal wizard over the alternatives, lets not comparatively weaken them further.
Most optimized Spellswords aren't going to get near as many spell slots as a Wizard though due to pumping Dex instead of Int and then gearing for Con/Wis on top of that. If they pump Int they lose AC and AB which pretty much leaves them helpless since all they can do is melee or cast a few damage spells.. The few spell slots my Spellsword had were used to ward them and I had like one Mord's and one Acid Sheath reserved for bosses and PVP. Spellswords also need to dip more than 3 levels in other classes which lowers their CL and makes them vulnerable to dispels. So a normal wizard still has quite a few advantages over a spellsword. Though I can see why wild mage, cleric, or druid might all be considered better choices for a summoner/caster.
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Anomandaris
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Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:56 am

Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Anomandaris » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:20 pm

I feel like spellsword is going to fare better vs a larger number of opponents even with the recent changes than traditional casters. Casters have become more support/utility, still quite dangerous, but not as reliable one on one or vs a broad range of PC builds. Casters are great for party based pvp and can dance through most pve, they’re invaluable for warding allies etc. But the days of casters being feared for being able to destroy you in pvp are over (lore changes, times top nerf, high saves). Mundane PCs have access to most “relevant” wards with full AB, high CL against dispel, endless dmg output (just keep swinging), high/unbeatable saves, crazy crits or sneaks for 1-2 rnd burst dmg kills etc.

Tbh the spellsword is kind of underwhelming to me, as what it can achieve is simply the same or worse than other builds, with a lower CL, no summons and marginal saves. That said, I don’t see giving the SS any “caster cookies” doing anything other than taking more of the niche of “normal casters” as utility and support. This isn’t to say the SS isn’t very strong or viable, it’s just kind of meh compared to what can be done with other “magic enhanced melee builds.” It used to be nasty, but still beatable by understanding it’s weaknesses, I liked it before the most recent nerfs even though it was scarier to go against. If anything I’d like to see it get a tiny bit of love in a way that enhances its designed fighting style, melee combat, not its casting capability (disclaimer- I don’t play a SS).

Might-N-Magic
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:34 pm

Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by Might-N-Magic » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:23 pm

I think it's just the idea that a spellsword is trash at being a proper wizard, so they don't get the high magic stuff.

To be honest, Palemasters are also supposed to be in the same boat (trash at being a wizard), but they decided to ignore lore and try to make them True Necromancers, which are something entirely different.

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ASqueakyPitFiend
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:55 am

Re: Spellsword Feedback

Post by ASqueakyPitFiend » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:03 am

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:02 pm
Back on Topic: Spellsword is a pretty strong class but I feel it is a bit overrated after playing one. First off, not being able to summon is a reasonable limitation, but being barred from a whole other school of magic besides conjuration can really hurt, since you are effectively barred from two whole schools unless you count a few spells you'll never use like Flame Arrow. Second, to get the most out of the class in melee, you really need to dip in fighter, weaponmaster, and/or monk. But by doing so you lower your CL to the point your wards will be dispelled easily in PVE and even more so in PVP. After the recent changes to how dispels are calculated I noticed my Spellsword's wards getting stripped off in dungeons when that previously did not happen. So that was a big nerf to any Spellsword with more than three levels dipped in another class. I ended up rolling my Spellsword character because it did not perform as well as I'd of liked, though it is partly my fault for choosing illusion as the forbidden school when I should have probably picked divination and just gave up premonition instead of improved invisibility. It would have been nice if I could cast illusion spells from Mundane Items like the Displacer Beast Cloak, that might have salvaged the character. Unfortunately spells from your forbidden school can't even be cast with Mundane Items which makes no sense to me since I thought it wasn't supposed to technically be magic?
So lets take a look at spellsword. Spellsword is suppose to be a wizard that also took the time to train in martial practices (in this case Fighter) to be a "Spell Knight", "Mage Knight", "Eldritch Knight", however you wish to coin it. It's only reasonable that they'd be less powerful than a nerd who spent their entire life studying how magic works instead of spending a few hours in the tower, and a few hours in the sparring fields with a martial instructor. Now mechanically, do you HAVE to dip into a melee class to be an effective Spellsword? Not necessarily, you could go full 30 spellsword though you wouldn't be optimal, you'd be able to resist dispels, but you wouldn't have all that APR a spellsword craves. This isn't a weakness to Spellsword, it's just a fact of life you face with ANY multiclass dip and as with all these shortcomings, you have to adapt and find new ways to overcome your weaknesses.

I think what a lot of people forget here is that this is suppose to be a game for people to Roleplay and form connections, alliances, join teams and overcome challenges. If you want a build that can solo everything, play a wild mage or CON Warlock. Spellsword is not going to solo everything. Lets take a look at PvP and I'll use my Spellsword as an example. Most mage builds are not going to be pures. Many will have a bard dip, rogue dip, specialist dip, or a Pally/BG dip. The only level 30 casters I see now'a'days are wild mages (I do not deny there are vanilla wizards out there that are pures, or druids, or clerics). So, like you, their caster level is gonna be weakened as well. So lets take a 27/3 Wizard vs the 23/4/3 spellsword and lets throw it through a few scenarios. Assuming the Wizard uses Mords and only Mords.

Scenario One (Wizard has 0 Abjuration feats; Spellsword has no Abjuration Defense)
Right away, you're losing 6 spells on the Breach List. This alone sucks, yes, but bare in mind this applies to everyone. The main focus is Wizard has a 1d20+22 CL check vs a DC 11 + 23. So against a DC 34, that wizard has to roll a minimum 12 to dispel the SS. While it's not impenetrable, a 60% chance of failure is still in the SS's favor.

Scenario Two (Wizard has 0 Abj Feats; SS has Abj Defense)
As above, but now the SS's DC is 36 thanks to Abjuration Defense. Congrats, that's now a 70% chance of failure to dispel you. Not impenetrable, but much better odds.

Scenario Three (Wizard has Epic Abjuration; SS has Abj Defense)
We'll summarize from here on out. Wizard's Dispel Check is 1d20+26 (22 Cap, +4 for Epic Abj) vs DC 36. This is a coin flip situation. 50/50. Abjurer's are going to be a Spellsword's bane, hands down.

Scenario Four (Wizard has Epic Abjuration; SS has no Defense)
The spellsword will lose this fight every time. A 1d20+26 vs a DC 34. All they have to do is roll an 8 and you've lost your wards and this is the worst case scenario for the Spellsword. Don't be upset if you lost this fight, in this scenario, if someone devoted their feats to get Epic Abjuration, you deserved to lose.

These scenarios are entirely based on the Pre-chosen builds above. So your results may vary, but the formulas remain the same. A spellsword is a mundane caster hybrid. They are going to be dispel bait in certain cases, these are the risks we decided to take on when deciding we wanted to play this class (myself included). What makes or breaks a build is what you do with it and the preparations you put into action to either prevent the storm or soften it's blow. If you want to prevent being dispelled, invest in Abjuration Defense feat. If you, like me, do not have a lot of spell slots to spend and don't want to be vulnerable after that lucky dispel, take advantage of your class. Spellswords still get Scribe Scroll! Make back ups of your important spells or make scrolls of certain spells that have Hour/Level durations so you can use that spell slot for something else. And most importantly, find allies to cover your weaknesses.

Now, I've ranted long enough, and this was in no way intended to antagonize the Quote or anyone else reading this Thread. Are spellswords broken? I do not think so. Are they underpowered? I think they get gimped on certain QOL areas (refer to my original post for this thread), but mechanically I personally feel that they are sitting in a pretty good area and some of these QOL changes are being made (the Epic Mage Armor change being a prime example).

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