Underdark Slavery

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Post Reply
User avatar
matheusgraef
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 7:41 pm

Underdark Slavery

Post by matheusgraef » Mon May 11, 2020 9:24 pm

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=27453&start=25

I'm making this thread because the one above (About Outcasts) was derailed into a topic about the slavery system in Arelith. I think it's a fair discussion and good points were brought up in that thread, but I feel like it's more productive if we discuss this on a dedicated thread. So here, we can discuss what we think needs to change regarding the current system.

So - what is it you disagree with the actual system in place? Do you agree players are only taking the collar for its ease-of-life benefits? How do you think could we swerve the RP/mechanics towards a more set-in-stone understanding of Slave PCs in Arelith, be it by their players and also by the living characters that witness and interact with slaves/slavery?

Discuss!

Nevrus
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Nevrus » Mon May 11, 2020 9:51 pm

Being a slave should suck.

Right now it mostly doesn't suck.

If someone doesn't know your name, you might as well not be a slave because you have all of the same privileges and powers and they can't do anything in response to you not being slave-like other than kill you. Which culturally seems to be something that makes masters angry?

They really need to get oppressed more. Maybe put a serial number on their collar, visible on examine, that can be used for slave-calling without showing their name. That's pretty easy to randomly generate and store on a database.
Ganus- Riding the Isle (Active)
Aura Bigstep - Got Out Ahead (Retired)
Egos Ironhide - Shelved
Consult a medical professional before believing anything Nevrus says.

User avatar
Aradin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:26 pm

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Aradin » Mon May 11, 2020 10:03 pm

I'm in the camp that being a slave should have some kind of mechanical downside. But I don't think that mechanical downside should make the game less fun for the slave player. Level caps, attribute crippling, etc. seem to me like they would be less fun than unique mechanics that put the slave at a disadvantage in PVP & RP situations. Slave calling is a good mechanic that I think is under-utilized. If there were a few more things like that, we might see slaves getting punishments befitting their station.

I think that in order to dissuade players from becoming slaves for the quality-of-life (how ironic!) you'd probably need to put in one or two genuinely punishing mechanical drawbacks. I wish I had ideas for what those were! I look forward to seeing what other people's ideas are. Just thought I'd put in my two cents for mechanical drawbacks that don't just involve making numbers lower.

Was Lloyd Grimm, Sai Aung-K'yi, Stink Spellworped, Ikarus, and Revyn the White.


AstralUniverse
Posts: 2724
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon May 11, 2020 10:03 pm

Nevrus wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:51 pm
Being a slave should suck.
That's in game. It's up to the player and the master's player to make sure the slave's life sucks.

The slave's player shouldnt have a shitty gaming experience so their characters can have harder times RP-wise.

In the very little I've played in the UD over the years, I've seen a fair share of slaves which seemed completely "oh I'm a slave because it's convenient right now and my master is pretty much my best friend, who bought me so the drow cant buy me" which I didnt like much.

I've also seen plenty of frightened slaves who play like they hesitate before they breath because of how their master might react. I liked those more as a general rule just because they were more interesting to play with.

I guess my point is all the mechanical tools are in place and nothing more is required. Its down to the players from here.
Edit:
After reading through many posts on both threads I no longer believe the current tools in place facilitate a good slavery system and are too easily exploitable for mechanical benefits.
Last edited by AstralUniverse on Tue May 12, 2020 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Xerah
Posts: 2037
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Xerah » Mon May 11, 2020 10:11 pm

I don’t like slavery on Arelith in its current form. There needs to be some sort of disadvantage. I really believe it should be level limits.

Also, slaves should have absolutely no access to the banking system (including through factions). If they want to store gold, the masters do it for them.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

User avatar
Morgy
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 720
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Morgy » Mon May 11, 2020 10:20 pm

Provide a tool for slave owners to subdue their slaves - perhaps add a ‘shock’ component to the collar or something similar that weakens or stuns a slave. This way they cannot use their mechanical power to throw their weight around so easily.

I do not believe in a level limit for all slaves, but perhaps impose a level limit on slaves not owned by a PC to prevent players simply getting a collar then refusing to be owned by any players.

We have to remember this is a game for all of us and slave PCs should be having as much fun as anyone else in their RP.
Last edited by Morgy on Mon May 11, 2020 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xanrael
Posts: 507
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by xanrael » Mon May 11, 2020 10:20 pm

I'd be fine with their name being written on their collar. If they want to hide it they can use disguise to hide the collar itself.

For the rest I think it is mainly a people problem and some players being unable to operate past the two extremes of hug-box or shredding the "Be Nice" rule.

I've noticed plenty of PCs making very odd RP choices. For example I've seen several drow PCs non-ironically bow to my goblin or slave character in response to my PC's own bow showing subservience. I understand that they don't want to disrespect me as a player, but my character is the bottom of the food chain in the UD. Mostly these were fresh EE players or else new to the UD.

Part of playing in an evil society is being willing to act in an evil manner and being willing to engage in at least verbal conflict. It has been very rare that I've even seen someone speak out to put a slave in their place. In my mind part of the issue is the slave player not embracing the spirit of the system and just as large a part is others not RPing a response to a rebellious slave.

I don't think modified mechanics will really address this; rather a slow player culture shift.

User avatar
Morgy
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 720
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Morgy » Mon May 11, 2020 10:25 pm

xanrael wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:20 pm
I'd be fine with their name being written on their collar. If they want to hide it they can use disguise to hide the collar itself.

For the rest I think it is mainly a people problem and some players being unable to operate past the two extremes of hug-box or shredding the "Be Nice" rule.

I've noticed plenty of PCs making very odd RP choices. For example I've seen several drow PCs non-ironically bow to my goblin or slave character in response to my PC's own bow showing subservience. I understand that they don't want to disrespect me as a player, but my character is the bottom of the food chain in the UD. Mostly these were fresh EE players or else new to the UD.

Part of playing in an evil society is being willing to act in an evil manner and being willing to engage in at least verbal conflict. It has been very rare that I've even seen someone speak out to put a slave in their place. In my mind part of the issue is the slave player not embracing the spirit of the system and just as large a part is others not RPing a response to a rebellious slave.

I don't think modified mechanics will really address this; rather a slow player culture shift.
I think a lot of the hug-monster RP in the UD is a bigger contributor to slavery problems than anything else.

Wrips
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:06 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Wrips » Mon May 11, 2020 10:26 pm

Slavery is a mechanic that depends on both the slave and the master.

If slaves are acting like they are all godly powerful and getting a pass, perhaps they aren't the problem at all. In a collaborative world, slaves have the duty to behave as slaves as the other characters have a duty to enforce consequences - if they consider the behavior inadequate.

There's also the fact that, unless you decide to play a commoner, or something mechanically gimped, your slave is not necessarily a lowly street beggar but a character with the same potential as the others PCs that, somehow, had ended up enslaved. They are a prodigy in what they do, much like their master. This cannot be argued, unless you want to redefine the slavery mechanics.

I'm not particularly against the slaves of powerful personas having a pass to do as they wish because it's often something that happened in many cultures.

User avatar
Emotionaloverload
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:39 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Emotionaloverload » Mon May 11, 2020 10:39 pm

Slavery does suck presently (depends on your owner) since you're not welcome in the city that you are allowed to play in and no other city on the island.

While I agree that there should be some restrictions on gold for slaves, it has been expressed to me through multiple discussions on this topic (its one I care a lot about having played slaves across eras) - players should not be punished in terms of the 5% for picking a concept (this includes the lvl restriction idea). Not all power over someone is gold or mechanical strength.

It is also not realistic to expect Master's to always be around for this gold to be deposited. There is already too much emphasis on Master's housing all the rp (which I entirely disagree with and puts undue pressure on players) there is no need to add this to it.


I have been advised to wait until my current character is finished before talking about the collection of issues related to the slavery system but since this topic has come up again, here we go.

1) There is no space for slave stories. At all. It is expected and vigorously enforced IG that slaves are seeking freedom. All of them. There is no rooms for slaves to be slaves. This is shown through the lack of facilities and lack of representation NPC wise (FOIG for that last bit).

I believe that one way to solve some of this issue --It is a huge issue, I get that, and difficult to fix with just a few new areas since a good portion of it is Arelithian culture and reaction-- is to create slave paths. Currently, all slaves that start as slaves are UD slaves. They do not get Undercommon as their language, though. Even if your concept is a UD based slave. This instantly restricts your concept choice. Before the outcast update, people would pick that and then the clamp to overcome it.

I believe you should allow some slaves to be UD slaves and others to be Sibayad/Sencliff slaves (they wouldn't get Undercommon. Perhaps you can tact on other things for these paths depending on the environment). Presently you can buy a registered Sibayad slave and sell it in the UD, even though its papers are in Sibayad. This takes away almost all slavery rp in places like Sibayad and Sencliff and makes your only viable option the UD.

There needs to be some separation. In FR, slavery and how it is presented depends immensely on the location. Slavery in Zakhara is vastly different than Thay and surface is a universe apart from UD slavery.

2) Masters need more pros and cons. Currently if you want to start slave, you are hit with a non-good penalty (regardless of where your slave might be from concept wise), however there is no penalty for owning slaves. At the very least, to conform with the arbitrary slave penalty, it should be non-good.

Masters technically do not own the slaves presently, they are renting the collar and magic from the Guild. To better reflect that, expand the guild. Give Master's more agency based on what they will pay for. Maybe a Master that pays a lot of rent can summon a slave to them with an item or they have a shorter caller time (its super long atm. Plenty of time to teleport). There could be means to weaken bad slaves or provide benefits to good ones. Plenty of chances for incentive based rp (of which there is presently 0).

3) Slaves should slave. I tend to be a more independent player with high initiative and I tailor my character around that. My slave does leasing for his various skills. He makes his Master money. That is not true of everyone so to accommodate other play styles, there could be areas that are slave only. A slave only section of the mines or slave only writs or something that gives some direction and purpose (and helps relieve some of the pressure on Master's).


Thank you,
-S
Formerly; Echo Hemlocke-Ralkai, Joshua Colt, Namil Evanara, Elanor Shortwick, Sawyer Brook, Kaylessa Dree, Sines Oliver Selakiir, Birgitta Birdie Swordhill, Bella Weartherbee, Arael Laceflower, Corbin, Rupert Silveroak, Hadi the Slave and others.

Gouge Away
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri May 24, 2019 4:38 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Gouge Away » Mon May 11, 2020 10:41 pm

I'd rather see the collar system used for captured prisoners and thralls and not something you start a character with. Make it so the owner can release them if they want (bribed or threatened) to make it more of a temporary situation that players can end when the story is up, not when a static quest is completed. People can RP permanent slavery if they want but maybe they should just do it without the mechanics.

Though to be honest I find the whole slavery thing bordering on poor taste, between the co-opting of real world misery and the number of playful and coquettish Cordor farm girls who end up in Anundor and don't seem to mind at all... It's just something I steer away from. But that's just one opinion, don't expect anything to really change.

Definately Not A Mimic
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:29 pm

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Definately Not A Mimic » Tue May 12, 2020 1:42 am

Having slaves have no access to a banker, not even thinking about the 5% roll, would be a huge and painful penalty to new characters considering slaves can not be bought by a master till lvl 5 or 7 I forget which. I've a few opinions/thoughts that I thought I'd toss out.

Have writs for slaves not give them coin only xp or have the coin go to their Master. -It should be hard for a slave to earn money.

If, and I say a big IF, you want them to lvl slower then have something similar to the xp handout that a commoner gets. -I personally don't like that idea as to me it makes no sense that a gladiator slave wouldn't learn by combat but it is something to keep a slave from grinding up levels quickly.

Make it so only the owner or those in the owners faction can use the collar to yoink the slave. -I personally never had a bad experience with this mechanic being abused but I find it odd that anyone can jerk your slave from the Master's side if they feel like it.

Add in some kind of mild shock (like the shock stick) to the collar. Something to show you're obviously punishing your slave. -Hopefully most people would go along with this as a slave and react like it is a punishment, sort of like the showers in the slave area. But again I think that should only be accessible by the Master or their faction.

Add more slave quarters or cells with jars like soulhaven. -This could be even something small that only lets you have 5 storage slots unless your Master upgrades this for you. Also allow the Master to have access to the slaves quarter automatically. Slaves life should be tough and if they are living nicer than other slaves (more storage per owner) they should have a risk to balance. Harder to plot behind a door your owner can come right into. The reason I would say more quarters is because as a slave you can't even get the citizen storage. And while it is all well and good to share your Master's housing that forces the owner to then have to have less storage themselves to help you out.

A slaves life should not be easy, I totally agree. But I think there should be room for them to have various rp. One who is totally broken and worships their master and is thankful for them. One that wants to be saved. One that wants to start a rebellion. One that hates their master but is loyal as long as certain criteria is met. So many different thoughts and paths to try and travel down.

User avatar
Aradin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:26 pm

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Aradin » Tue May 12, 2020 3:06 am

Here's a thought about slaves and bank access. I have no knowledge of NWN scripting so I'm not sure this is doable, but instead of giving slaves total access to banks or completely crippling them, why not find a middle ground?
Option 1) Slave bank accounts have a cap. Maybe 100k?
Option 2) Slave bank accounts have a cap that scales to their level. Something like 1k at level 1 and 100k at level 30.

If you are a free character and have more than your cap in the bank when you become a slave, all excess money gets transferred to the Slavemaster of _____. The first PC to enslave you gets all that money transferred to their own bank account.

Was Lloyd Grimm, Sai Aung-K'yi, Stink Spellworped, Ikarus, and Revyn the White.


User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Hazard » Tue May 12, 2020 3:30 am

I'd really like my next character to become a slave at some point, but I want them to be treated like a slave. I miss the days of people smacking you around and spitting on you and giving you commands because they are not slaves and you are. It didn't used to matter if they were your master or not.

Now it seems a slave only sees their master as above/equal to them and all other free people as below them. That's the typical slave I see, usually accompanied by a cocky personality and strutting about like they own the place.. Make them a cute human/elf waifu for extra points + add whatever build is the pvp meta atm so they don't have to worry so much about consequences.

I'd like to see some systems in place that allow anyone to put a slave in their place, to really encourage the players of slaves to take their character's circumstances seriously. There should be the constant threat of 'if I'm not a good slave, I'm done for'.. and the knowledge of 'I am below literally every free being down here'..

Names/numbers on collars would help, and make a lot of sense. It doesn't make much sense that we can't find out the name of a slave. They are property of the city/slavemaster originally and the name would have been kept or at least a serial code on their collar.

Slaves and their masters need to pull their socks up. Sorry.
Not all of them, but from what I see.. most of them, yes.

User avatar
DM Rex
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by DM Rex » Tue May 12, 2020 3:40 am

Xerah wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:11 pm
I don’t like slavery on Arelith in its current form. There needs to be some sort of disadvantage. I really believe it should be level limits.

Also, slaves should have absolutely no access to the banking system (including through factions). If they want to store gold, the masters do it for them.
Several folks are mentioning 'caps on finances', not just Xerah here.
This is a no can do, as the slaves do have a method of paying their way to freedom. And there's no reason they shouldn't be able to as it presently stands.

User avatar
Emotionaloverload
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:39 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Emotionaloverload » Tue May 12, 2020 3:46 am

Hazard wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:30 am
I'd really like my next character to become a slave at some point, but I want them to be treated like a slave. I miss the days of people smacking you around and spitting on you and giving you commands because they are not slaves and you are. It didn't used to matter if they were your master or not.
I do not agree with this because slaves are property. You would be pretty cross if someone went around keying your car because they were having a bad day. That does not mean that they can misbehave, obviously, and there should be consequences for misbehaving.

That said! I do believe that made/creation slaves have had more time in the 'system' and that should be reflected in the rp. Caught slaves are an entirely different ball of fur.

There are characters IG; slaves and slavers, that try to adjust the culture of slavery and change the way slaves behave. If Districts actually cared about slave behaviour, it would be regulated IG (officials currently have characters knowledgeable on the subject that they can consult with even) but its not. That is not an issue that can be fixed mechanically. It is an rp issue.

I believe that if you want to see an improvement (not a fix) on that front, you need more reporting or you need to gate slave behind a gift.


-S
Formerly; Echo Hemlocke-Ralkai, Joshua Colt, Namil Evanara, Elanor Shortwick, Sawyer Brook, Kaylessa Dree, Sines Oliver Selakiir, Birgitta Birdie Swordhill, Bella Weartherbee, Arael Laceflower, Corbin, Rupert Silveroak, Hadi the Slave and others.

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Hazard » Tue May 12, 2020 4:16 am

Emotionaloverload wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:46 am
Hazard wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:30 am
I'd really like my next character to become a slave at some point, but I want them to be treated like a slave. I miss the days of people smacking you around and spitting on you and giving you commands because they are not slaves and you are. It didn't used to matter if they were your master or not.
I do not agree with this because slaves are property. You would be pretty cross if someone went around keying your car because they were having a bad day.
-S
I agree to a point. A car is 'my' property, I bought it and I own it. A slave is being leased to me from the city/slavemaster. It is everyone's slave, not just mine. I am the master, but the slave belongs to the culture that enslaves it, otherwise it would have no slavemaster collar and would report directly to me and only me. That's not the case, anyone can summon it and should I vanish the slavemaster will re-sell my slave.

If my car got up and started giggling in town square, flirting with people, relaxing, threatening people or picking fights, and someone yelled at it/slapped it/spat on it or otherwise reacted to this obscene behaviour from a car in some way that does not permanently damage it, I wouldn't be upset.. I would be ashamed and apologetic that I have failed so profusely as a car owner.

User avatar
Emotionaloverload
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:39 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Emotionaloverload » Tue May 12, 2020 4:22 am

Hazard wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 4:16 am
Emotionaloverload wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:46 am
Hazard wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:30 am
I'd really like my next character to become a slave at some point, but I want them to be treated like a slave. I miss the days of people smacking you around and spitting on you and giving you commands because they are not slaves and you are. It didn't used to matter if they were your master or not.
I do not agree with this because slaves are property. You would be pretty cross if someone went around keying your car because they were having a bad day.
-S

If my car got up and started giggling in town square, flirting with people, relaxing, threatening people or picking fights, and someone yelled at it/slapped it/spat on it or otherwise reacted to this obscene behaviour from a car in some way that does not permanently damage it, I wouldn't be upset.. I would be ashamed and apologetic that I have failed so profusely as a car owner.
I absolutely agree with that but there NEEDS to be a cause. However owners ultimately decide what counts as misbehaving and its their rented product.

This is why I feel more emphasis needs to be made that owners are just renting by expanding guild functions, adding fees and what not.

-S
Formerly; Echo Hemlocke-Ralkai, Joshua Colt, Namil Evanara, Elanor Shortwick, Sawyer Brook, Kaylessa Dree, Sines Oliver Selakiir, Birgitta Birdie Swordhill, Bella Weartherbee, Arael Laceflower, Corbin, Rupert Silveroak, Hadi the Slave and others.

sarithia
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:59 pm

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by sarithia » Tue May 12, 2020 4:51 am

Someone made a great suggestion in another thread about slaves having a collar that needed upkeep, etc, with a full on DC. Much like a rented quarters, and I thoroughly thought it was a great idea.

Greivern Elisbrinn [Active]
Yaen Oakenshade [We'll see]
Anakhsun Emeratu [Shelved]
Jihael [Dead]
Nhil [Inactive]


User avatar
Petrifictus
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:53 am
Location: Finland

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Petrifictus » Tue May 12, 2020 7:04 am

Slavery system is fine, through I would add easier option to remove the collar for the slave owners and give slave quarters in the Sibayad. I would suggest some shock collar system but since we got subdual, that is no longer needed through some punishment power would be neat if slave attacked the owner. Who cares if you're owned by low lvl goblin and you're an epic, its still your master!

Beside most complains about slavery often come from players who themselves do not play with the system, disliking it so much that they often try to make it unplayable for others and throwing suggestions that will kill good Slave RP if allowed.
* If we allowed freedom by PvP, nobody would bother to buy a slave as it would backfire at them.
* If we put a monthly fee on the slaves like quarters and properties and based them on levels, it would punish owners who're not very rich and has lot of slaves who like to be owned/roleplay with them as they suddenly go on sale.
* If we made special magic items that can be crafted and used to remove the collar, we would have mass producing of such items in the shops and all goody two-shoes would have them, resulting on massive slave outbreaks. (If such item was made, slave players should get option to either accept or decline, if they're liking the slavery RP at the moment.)

I think main issue with the slavery is how its played, like some play them as "Outcast 2.0" and its negative reputation by few bad apples in the past. There is also an issue of some slave masters hesitating a little bit OOC to oppress or punish the slave IG due to possibility that other becomes upset, or they just themselves are discomfortable to do such on the other.
There is also issue of trust that often comes from the slaves, which comes either bad reputation or experience. Like some slave tell right away at start that they're not going to have any abusive RP when asking if they wish to be purchased OOC.
Or that some people just buy slaves to add their names on their collars because it looks nice but after it they never much bother to interact with them expect when needing to gather resources or crafting something.

I myself love Slavery RP as Beast King Karstaag and has played with many amazing slaves in our tribal ranks such as Sunnie Dawn, who has thrown herself against everything we have thrown at her. :)

Our Scourge Tribes - faction expanded our vision to encourage and inspire good slavery RP beside our mostrous RP, which has been a huge success and built a great monster community.
We focus that anyone who choose to play/become a slave feel included within our faction, getting involved with our events and have a good time, as slaves are shared within the tribes. Before signing the collar, we interview and make some shared houserules together based on personal wishes of both sides, such as comfort, playtimes, etc. I very often check our slaves if they're fine and remind not to be shy and remind that they're free to send a tell/PM should something go over the edge or bothers them so we may fix that. I also let them know that they may tell me if they're wishing to change ownership with someone else or become free, so we may work on it IC as long it dont break the characters.
https://petrifications.deviantart.com/
Gnome Wotan Woodberry - (Shelved)
Goblin Toymaker Karma - (Rolled)
Ogre Karstaag da Main Man - (Active)

User avatar
Skarain
Posts: 467
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:31 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Skarain » Tue May 12, 2020 7:55 am

xanrael wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:20 pm
I don't think modified mechanics will really address this; rather a slow player culture shift.
Emotionaloverload wrote: There are characters IG; slaves and slavers, that try to adjust the culture of slavery and change the way slaves behave. If Districts actually cared about slave behaviour, it would be regulated IG (officials currently have characters knowledgeable on the subject that they can consult with even) but its not. That is not an issue that can be fixed mechanically. It is an rp issue.
Hey. I just wanted to second this message. Mechanics can help to direct the direction of the narrative, but let's all remember that the devs are busy with a hundred projects. However, a culture shift is something we players can advocate and push forward.

This thread has been extremely helpful to me, since on Yinthraz Ebonlink I am trying to push forward more 'general guidelines for slaves and slave ownership' in Andunor as a whole and generate said culture shift ingame. :)

I compiled below how the people responding to this thread would like slavery RP to be like - detached from the mechanical discussion (please whack me if I forgot to quote an important point somewhere).

If you have something more to add, feel free to post. It is a helpful resource for me. Also feel free to discuss the points further.
Nevarius wrote:Being a slave should suck. They really need to get oppressed more.
Astral wrote:I've also seen plenty of frightened slaves who play like they hesitate before they breath because of how their master might react. I liked those more as a general rule just because they were more interesting to play with.
Xanrael wrote: Part of playing in an evil society is being willing to act in an evil manner and being willing to engage in at least verbal conflict. It has been very rare that I've even seen someone speak out to put a slave in their place. In my mind part of the issue is the slave player not embracing the spirit of the system and just as large a part is others not RPing a response to a rebellious slave.
Wrips wrote:If slaves are acting like they are all godly powerful and getting a pass, perhaps they aren't the problem at all. In a collaborative world, slaves have the duty to behave as slaves as the other characters have a duty to enforce consequences - if they consider the behavior inadequate.
Definitely not a mimic wrote:A slaves life should not be easy, I totally agree. But I think there should be room for them to have various rp. One who is totally broken and worships their master and is thankful for them. One that wants to be saved. One that wants to start a rebellion. One that hates their master but is loyal as long as certain criteria is met. So many different thoughts and paths to try and travel down.
Hazard wrote:I'd really like my next character to become a slave at some point, but I want them to be treated like a slave. I miss the days of people smacking you around and spitting on you and giving you commands because they are not slaves and you are. It didn't used to matter if they were your master or not.

Now it seems a slave only sees their master as above/equal to them and all other free people as below them. That's the typical slave I see, usually accompanied by a cocky personality and strutting about like they own the place.. Make them a cute human/elf waifu for extra points + add whatever build is the pvp meta atm so they don't have to worry so much about consequences.

There should be the constant threat of 'if I'm not a good slave, I'm done for'.. and the knowledge of 'I am below literally every free being down here'..
Hazard wrote: I agree to a point. A car is 'my' property, I bought it and I own it. A slave is being leased to me from the city/slavemaster. It is everyone's slave, not just mine. I am the master, but the slave belongs to the culture that enslaves it, otherwise it would have no slavemaster collar and would report directly to me and only me. That's not the case, anyone can summon it and should I vanish the slavemaster will re-sell my slave.

If my car got up and started giggling in town square, flirting with people, relaxing, threatening people or picking fights, and someone yelled at it/slapped it/spat on it or otherwise reacted to this obscene behaviour from a car in some way that does not permanently damage it, I wouldn't be upset.. I would be ashamed and apologetic that I have failed so profusely as a car owner.
Pertifictus wrote: I think main issue with the slavery is how its played, like some play them as "Outcast 2.0" and its negative reputation by few bad apples in the past. There is also an issue of some slave masters hesitating a little bit OOC to oppress or punish the slave IG due to possibility that other becomes upset, or they just themselves are discomfortable to do such on the other.
There is also issue of trust that often comes from the slaves, which comes either bad reputation or experience. Like some slave tell right away at start that they're not going to have any abusive RP when asking if they wish to be purchased OOC.
Or that some people just buy slaves to add their names on their collars because it looks nice but after it they never much bother to interact with them expect when needing to gather resources or crafting something.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unrelated but related. :D
Morgy wrote:Provide a tool for slave owners to subdue their slaves - perhaps add a ‘shock’ component to the collar or something similar that weakens or stuns a slave. This way they cannot use their mechanical power to throw their weight around so easily.
Image

Found in random loot the other day.

User avatar
ReverentBlade
Posts: 578
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:45 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by ReverentBlade » Tue May 12, 2020 8:16 am

Underdark leveling and writs aren't just a "little" better than surface...they are a "lot" better.

I kinda think we should just improve surface QOL and make everyone happier and remove the incentive to make cheese-slaves in the first place.

User avatar
Skibbles
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:25 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Skibbles » Tue May 12, 2020 8:22 am

I generally agree with just about everything emotionaloverload has to say on the subject. I would highlight some things I've noticed over the years with the slavery system in Andunor. I will preface also that I haven't personally played a slave for any lasting time for a solid four or five years (though much of what I see hasn't really changed all that much).

1) Slaves super need something to do: maybe special writs without a level cap that allow them to gather certain resources that nobody else can, daily goals, a special guild for slaves/players NOT seeking freedom, maybe a special tool for the master to set goals or tasks (and for the slaves to respond by marking things completed) without having to pass notes through quarters when both aren't online at the same time - anything that they can do instead of being occasionally stuck afk in a quarter while drow jabber all around them about things they sadly don't play an immediate part in.

Maybe even some writs that slaves need to work together on, giving them a reason to coordinate with other slaves maybe even from other owners. This could establish intrigue within the slave population that wish to be free versus those that don't.

2) Expand slave amenities: I think it would be very cool to see an area that isn't the slave pits dedicated to slaves. Not a district or anything, but a place that slaves can congregate like a dingy slave-only bar or seedy tavern where their masters prefer them while they live the high-life up at the Web. Upper class (for a slave, anyway) quarters for rich owners that prefer their property not smell like a sewer every time they're called on. Maybe little slave-only quarters added to the bigger mansions in the city to give it that House-Slave appeal for the most favored slave.

3) Slave-only gear/perks: It might be nice to provide slaves with gear that might increase the production of some resources. Maybe special tools so slaves can procure more sand, ore, plants, what have you. Boots that provide no bonuses other than a slight increase in movement speed so they can carry on tasks without it being so grueling. Maybe some extra crafting points to their max. All this of course is lost or unequippable once a slave becomes free.

I've recently started owning a slave again after many years. Slave/Owner RP is very challenging but also very rewarding. Personally I really sympathize to see a slave PC semi-afk during RP between freed-characters so I think more tools and areas that are designed around slave engagement is important.

As of now there is a huge onus on the Owner to provide as much engagement as possible. This isn't a bad thing, but the owner can't always be available to provide that at all times (especially when offline!).

All in all slavery is an awesome mechanic that is providing huge amounts of roleplay for many characters in Andunor. It's great, but I also think it can be better.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

Shadowy Reality
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 1237
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:56 am

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Shadowy Reality » Tue May 12, 2020 9:12 am

To be honest, I think the biggest change needs to be in the mind of both players playing slaves and players playing masters. I am not against some mechanical limitations too (in whatever form they come), but I think both need to happen.

Slaves in general as well-treated by everyone, I don't know why. I understand that master's are not supposed to be abusing their slave's constantly, but they should be constantly asserting their dominance, constantly squashing hope, and making the slave understand it is not going anywhere. This very rarely needs to be done with mechanical prowess, it can almost purely be done through manipulation. (For instance, in a very old character of mine, one of her hobbies was training her slaves, which she did by having one punish another whenever one failed in some aspect, all while appearing very caring. It lead to the idea that it were the fellow slaves doing the punishing, and less the master, some sort of emotional manipulation).

Include your slaves in whatever you are doing, you are the biggest vessel of your slave's roleplay. Don't just tell them to to things for Andunor and get strong. When I play a slave I do it because I want to get roleplay out of the master-slave interaction, not because I want to grind in Andunor.

Slaves on the hand should be wary of how they act. A slave should never openly reject their master, or their status, they should not act entitled, they are the bottom of Andunor after all. You still have a lot of agency and there are a lot of things you can do to without making it seem like you are a regular human with a fancy collar.

User avatar
Algol
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Algol » Tue May 12, 2020 9:26 am

Hello all, as a current slave character player I must say I greatly enjoy my character and their RP. And I must admit some of the suggestions here worry me. I'll try to organize my thoughts a bit in this post so they are coherent. First step would be identifiying the percived issues by the player base, second would be determining on what principals those problems and the last step would be offering solutions (or why there shouldn't be one) guided by those principals. Obivously the second and third steps would depend on my personal opinions greatly but I'll try to list as many percived problems as I can.

a) The Problems

1) Slaves act like they are free people

2) People treat slaves too "nicely"

3) Slaves can become as powerul as even more powerful than their masters mechanically and financially

4) Being a slave isn't punishing enough

5) Owning a slave isn't rewarding enough

6) Free people do not have enough mechanical over slaves unless they know character name

7) There isn't enough support for slave RP in the module

8) It is distasteful RP and disrespectful to people who suffered from it.

b) The principals

1) First of all it should be fun for everyone, so it souldn't be extremly inconvenient etc.

2) It should enable more concepts and RP (that fit the setting of course) instead of shutting them down.

3) It shouldn't offer blatant mechanical advantages or disadvantages

4) It shouldn't invalidate current existing characters and RP going on.

5) Any mechanical changes made should support RP, people shouldn't tailor their characters so they fit the mechanics in place

c) My thoughts based on the principals

1) I don't belive this issue is as common as people make it to be, and I also think it's not an issue only limited to slaves. I'm sure we all have seen poor examples of characters barking louder than they should (and usually get killed for it). This is an issue with RP "skill" I belive. And I don't think it's damaging enough to server integrity to lock slaves behind RPR or rewards.

2) Similar above but this time ball is on the owner / free people. It's a RP issue, and a character may have valid reasons to treat a slave nicely. I think we should tell people how to RP -their- character as little as possible.

3) This ties into the second principal. A merchant slave running shops for their master, a powerful body guard condtioned to duty, or a lowly rothe herder are all valid concepts. I do not think one should be encouraged over others. I understand some people sometimes find others character concepts poor, but I do not belive we should police concepts as long as they are against the integrity of the setting. And slaves with mechanical and financial power are not against integrity of the setting at all. One may say "Why don't they just kill their masters and escape?", well even tho FR societies are horrible they are still societies. It's the same reason why you can't beat up your boss to get a raise.

4) I belive this is a matter that should be handeled via RP. Slaves already have some QoL penalties like no settelment storage. I belive adding too many other penalties could just make things too unconvient and outright unfun. I you tink a slave shouldn't posses over certain amount of coins etc... Ask it from your slaves ICly, do not give them shares from loot etc.

5) This I kind of agree with, but it's also a bit tricky to handle without making slave owning too much of a mechanical advantage. I'd propose adding an item that lets the slave owner and those designed by them to send the slave messages once per rest or so. Another option could be giving the slave owner a slight ECL reduction when they are partied up with their slave (non-stacking) or give them bonus adventure XP ticks while they are with their slave.

6) I belive this is a RP culture thing and should be addressed that way. After all we should enable as much as concepts possible and spitting on face of an ogre battle slave as a goblin might not be a great idea :P

7) This I highly agree with. Slave freedom quest thing is nice but I'd love more slave support in the module. Writs that consist of lowly tasks like cleaning the sewers that rewards xp for the slave and gold for the master could be a fun addition. There should be support or other kind of slaves as well... Perhaps the guard barracks in the east wheel could be used as a hub for more militaristic slaves, Spiders Nest for more entertainment focused ones, hub inner for more domestic ones etc... A lot of potential to here and thhis is -just- Anduor. Other starts for slaves would be very welcome as well as toggleable slavery laws for surface settelments. (If it's on you can use jails to enslave characters and buy them etc.)

8) This is a difficult one... And I agree wit it to some degree. But as we RP in this game we cover many dark elements of human nature and history. Some hit closer to home than others for some, but I belive slave RP can be done in a tasteful manner.

Post Reply