Underdark Slavery

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Nitro
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Nitro » Thu May 14, 2020 7:24 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 6:22 pm
Nitro wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:57 pm
"This slave is uncommonly well-threaded;"*snip*

The word uncommon given in the description very strongly implies that this is not your typical slave, and that in most circumstances you should expect a slave to be less than what you're seeing. While it doesn't go on to imply all slaves are mistreated, this again refers back to my earlier sentiment- this slave points out that he is well-treated because he is a slave and his position is well-maintained.

Hauling off and suplexing the guy mouthing off is probably not something this slave does, since that wouldn't make his reputable merchant friend look good.

You've given a demonstrable example of how slaves can be more than just a broken urchin, but no evidence that they usually are, which is expressed as unlikely in your own cited example (again, "uncommonly.")

I seem to recall some fairly grisly descriptions of certain areas of the slave pits. Perhaps putting some of those up alongside that image might paint a more well-rounded picture to suss out where in the middle both sides of the discussion should meet.
I'm not arguing that every slave should be a disrespectful suplexing WWE champion, I'm saying that there shouldn't be some sort of DM enforcement on the ones that do play that kind of slave because it's an entirely IC problem. If a slave is obscenely powerful for whatever reason, and their owner doesn't seem to care about fixing their attitude problems, shouldn't it be players that step in to A: Teach the slave a lesson (with the slave caller if necessary), B: Teach the owner a lesson, C: Both of the previous.

And if players can't or don't want to do any of these, either because they're worried about retribution from the owner and their faction, or because they themselves lack the clout to push someone around, then well... It sort of makes sense that the slave isn't bowing and scraping before them.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri May 15, 2020 12:27 am

Nitro wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:57 pm

I'm not arguing that every slave should be a disrespectful suplexing WWE champion, I'm saying that there shouldn't be some sort of DM enforcement on the ones that do play that kind of slave because it's an entirely IC problem. If a slave is obscenely powerful for whatever reason, and their owner doesn't seem to care about fixing their attitude problems, shouldn't it be players that step in to A: Teach the slave a lesson (with the slave caller if necessary), B: Teach the owner a lesson, C: Both of the previous.

And if players can't or don't want to do any of these, either because they're worried about retribution from the owner and their faction, or because they themselves lack the clout to push someone around, then well... It sort of makes sense that the slave isn't bowing and scraping before them.
I'm inclined to agree with your IC solution, but if slave culture has reached a prolific enough point to start this discussion, I wonder if the atmosphere might already be too unbalanced for players to affect a change without some dm action IC to enforce the atmosphere.

For example, I imagine peacekeepers in the under city get touchy when slaves hit citizens.

Whatever the case, I still don't think that should be a mechanical gimping, but it does SOUND like something may need to happen.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Kuma » Fri May 15, 2020 2:09 am

Proposal;

1: The Slavemaster of Andunor has made millions, if not even billions, off the huge bribes he takes to free slaves, but the Hubmaster has grown tired of how this has turned out. He is executed by Peacekeepers and replaced by a Jaggaroth Officer who is not swayed so easily by the lure of coin. This method of freedom is henceforth removed, for an indeterminate length of time. 3 RL months? 6? Permanently? That's up to the devs - and is also not made known to players until reversed, if at all.

2: The FOIG freedom quest makes you persona-non-grata in Andunor. This method of freedom runs counter to the values of the City. Anyone who attains freedom in this way is rendered outcast from Andunor - taking the same penalties in Andunor as a regular Outcast would on the surface. They are unable to own Slaves, and they cannot use the Hub portal. For instance, they may be denied gondola services, or charged a premium. They are unable to become a citizen of a district. They can't own property. Etc.

EDIT: If a slave attains freedom in this way, also, their collar being broken should send an alert to the Slavemaster. This causes their name and former owner to be added to a board of escaped slaves, for x amount of time. Andunor town criers yell "[owner's name]'s slave [slave name] has escaped the city!" as a sort of admonishment, to encourage owners to keep a close eye on their property, and to encourage gangs to capture escaped slaves (and some more uses for the assassins guild...).

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Algol » Fri May 15, 2020 4:12 am

Kuma wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:09 am
2: The FOIG freedom quest makes you persona-non-grata in Andunor. This method of freedom runs counter to the values of the City. Anyone who attains freedom in this way is rendered outcast from Andunor - taking the same penalties in Andunor as a regular Outcast would on the surface. They are unable to own Slaves, and they cannot use the Hub portal. For instance, they may be denied gondola services, or charged a premium. They are unable to become a citizen of a district. They can't own property. Etc.
I understand you'd want to encourgae former slaves to go live in the surface but monstrous characters get enslaved at times as well.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Kuma » Fri May 15, 2020 4:23 am

Algol wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 4:12 am
Kuma wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:09 am
2: The FOIG freedom quest makes you persona-non-grata in Andunor. This method of freedom runs counter to the values of the City. Anyone who attains freedom in this way is rendered outcast from Andunor - taking the same penalties in Andunor as a regular Outcast would on the surface. They are unable to own Slaves, and they cannot use the Hub portal. For instance, they may be denied gondola services, or charged a premium. They are unable to become a citizen of a district. They can't own property. Etc.
I understand you'd want to encourgae former slaves to go live in the surface but monstrous characters get enslaved at times as well.
This is true. Exceptions would need to be made with regards to UD natives who escape slavery as, yknow, self-preservation. Perhaps they just revert to normal.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri May 15, 2020 5:33 am

Kuma wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:09 am
Proposal;

1: The Slavemaster of Andunor has made millions, if not even billions, off the huge bribes he takes to free slaves, but the Hubmaster has grown tired of how this has turned out. He is executed by Peacekeepers and replaced by a Jaggaroth Officer who is not swayed so easily by the lure of coin. This method of freedom is henceforth removed, for an indeterminate length of time. 3 RL months? 6? Permanently? That's up to the devs - and is also not made known to players until reversed, if at all.

2: The FOIG freedom quest makes you persona-non-grata in Andunor. This method of freedom runs counter to the values of the City. Anyone who attains freedom in this way is rendered outcast from Andunor - taking the same penalties in Andunor as a regular Outcast would on the surface. They are unable to own Slaves, and they cannot use the Hub portal. For instance, they may be denied gondola services, or charged a premium. They are unable to become a citizen of a district. They can't own property. Etc.

EDIT: If a slave attains freedom in this way, also, their collar being broken should send an alert to the Slavemaster. This causes their name and former owner to be added to a board of escaped slaves, for x amount of time. Andunor town criers yell "[owner's name]'s slave [slave name] has escaped the city!" as a sort of admonishment, to encourage owners to keep a close eye on their property, and to encourage gangs to capture escaped slaves (and some more uses for the assassins guild...).
I like this a lot. I actually feel like in some cases it could probably be extended to characters that purchase their own freedom, as well. I'm not sure that if you manage to give a slavemaster 500K gold that he wouldn't just look at you deadpan and say something to the effect of, "You've got about ten seconds to get out of my sight before I realize that if I put you in chains again you're worth another half a million."
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Kuma » Fri May 15, 2020 5:39 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 5:33 am
I like this a lot. I actually feel like in some cases it could probably be extended to characters that purchase their own freedom, as well. I'm not sure that if you manage to give a slavemaster 500K gold that he wouldn't just look at you deadpan and say something to the effect of, "You've got about ten seconds to get out of my sight before I realize that if I put you in chains again you're worth another half a million."
It's important to have a way out. But that way out shouldn't be gamified, or presumed upon, by others who look at the system as a temporary setback (OOC) to eventually evolve into Super Outcast Without Drawbacks. But I also think that an indeterminate amount of time with no way out that doesn't render you persona non grata, would go a long way to changing the dynamics of current slaves. Kill it for a time, then bring it back, but with... yeah. Repercussions, consequences.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Petrifictus » Fri May 15, 2020 7:57 am

I love our slaves who turn into tribal under our monstrous ownership, adopting our deities, language and monster culture. They are slaves with benefits.

Those who do not will be treated as ”lesser slaves.”
Kudos for all Scourge-slaves. <3

I like the idea where city crier shouts who has lost slave if collar has been broken and being treated as outcast in Andunor, maybe in Sibayad too since slavery there is often being used to pay off depts.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Nitro » Fri May 15, 2020 11:16 am

Kuma's proposal sounds like a very elegant solution, it doesn't penalize players who genuinely want to play slaves with tedious mechanics, but hits the people who want to use it as a stepping stone into outcast-lite.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Ork » Fri May 15, 2020 1:51 pm

Going to voice agreement on Kuma's idea. It is the happy middle-ground that cultivates the sort of roleplay this thread's posters seem to crave.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri May 15, 2020 2:01 pm

Kuma wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:09 am
Proposal;

1: The Slavemaster of Andunor has made millions, if not even billions, off the huge bribes he takes to free slaves, but the Hubmaster has grown tired of how this has turned out. He is executed by Peacekeepers and replaced by a Jaggaroth Officer who is not swayed so easily by the lure of coin. This method of freedom is henceforth removed, for an indeterminate length of time. 3 RL months? 6? Permanently? That's up to the devs - and is also not made known to players until reversed, if at all.

2: The FOIG freedom quest makes you persona-non-grata in Andunor. This method of freedom runs counter to the values of the City. Anyone who attains freedom in this way is rendered outcast from Andunor - taking the same penalties in Andunor as a regular Outcast would on the surface. They are unable to own Slaves, and they cannot use the Hub portal. For instance, they may be denied gondola services, or charged a premium. They are unable to become a citizen of a district. They can't own property. Etc.

EDIT: If a slave attains freedom in this way, also, their collar being broken should send an alert to the Slavemaster. This causes their name and former owner to be added to a board of escaped slaves, for x amount of time. Andunor town criers yell "[owner's name]'s slave [slave name] has escaped the city!" as a sort of admonishment, to encourage owners to keep a close eye on their property, and to encourage gangs to capture escaped slaves (and some more uses for the assassins guild...).
Let's do it.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Petrifictus » Fri May 15, 2020 2:07 pm

Kuma wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:09 am
Proposal;

1: The Slavemaster of Andunor has made millions, if not even billions, off the huge bribes he takes to free slaves, but the Hubmaster has grown tired of how this has turned out. He is executed by Peacekeepers and replaced by a Jaggaroth Officer who is not swayed so easily by the lure of coin. This method of freedom is henceforth removed, for an indeterminate length of time. 3 RL months? 6? Permanently? That's up to the devs - and is also not made known to players until reversed, if at all.

2: The FOIG freedom quest makes you persona-non-grata in Andunor. This method of freedom runs counter to the values of the City. Anyone who attains freedom in this way is rendered outcast from Andunor - taking the same penalties in Andunor as a regular Outcast would on the surface. They are unable to own Slaves, and they cannot use the Hub portal. For instance, they may be denied gondola services, or charged a premium. They are unable to become a citizen of a district. They can't own property. Etc.

EDIT: If a slave attains freedom in this way, also, their collar being broken should send an alert to the Slavemaster. This causes their name and former owner to be added to a board of escaped slaves, for x amount of time. Andunor town criers yell "[owner's name]'s slave [slave name] has escaped the city!" as a sort of admonishment, to encourage owners to keep a close eye on their property, and to encourage gangs to capture escaped slaves (and some more uses for the assassins guild...).
+1
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by TimeAdept » Fri May 15, 2020 6:52 pm

Kuma wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:09 am
Proposal;

1: The Slavemaster of Andunor has made millions, if not even billions, off the huge bribes he takes to free slaves, but the Hubmaster has grown tired of how this has turned out. He is executed by Peacekeepers and replaced by a Jaggaroth Officer who is not swayed so easily by the lure of coin. This method of freedom is henceforth removed, for an indeterminate length of time. 3 RL months? 6? Permanently? That's up to the devs - and is also not made known to players until reversed, if at all.

2: The FOIG freedom quest makes you persona-non-grata in Andunor. This method of freedom runs counter to the values of the City. Anyone who attains freedom in this way is rendered outcast from Andunor - taking the same penalties in Andunor as a regular Outcast would on the surface. They are unable to own Slaves, and they cannot use the Hub portal. For instance, they may be denied gondola services, or charged a premium. They are unable to become a citizen of a district. They can't own property. Etc.

EDIT: If a slave attains freedom in this way, also, their collar being broken should send an alert to the Slavemaster. This causes their name and former owner to be added to a board of escaped slaves, for x amount of time. Andunor town criers yell "[owner's name]'s slave [slave name] has escaped the city!" as a sort of admonishment, to encourage owners to keep a close eye on their property, and to encourage gangs to capture escaped slaves (and some more uses for the assassins guild...).
Cool as hell, do this.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Xerah » Fri May 15, 2020 6:59 pm

Kuma’s ideas are amazing. Full support. Once you pay your debt in service to the city, you can get free. This could even allow for renaming away from “slave” system.

This also promotes better use of the prisoner collar. Not many will agree to the “slave” collar if they have to keep it for three months.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri May 15, 2020 8:12 pm

Love it, Kuma!
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Lexx » Fri May 15, 2020 9:11 pm

If people are endemically gaming the current slavery system to do what is listed. The fix should honestly come from characters IC within the world putting a stop to it. Never mind the fact that this behavior is more endemic in the underdark than it is above. Where players alternate between "chainbreaking bad and we punish you" and "Chainbreaking fine if we like you and we reward you freedom if you do what we like." entirely dependently on if the players in question like the person or not..

That's my 2 copper on the subject. Keep the mechanics the same. If people aren't wanting to enforce the IC repercussions for chainbreaking or making a slave lightly and playing it as outcast lite. Then that shouldn't be mechanically enforced because people aren't willing/bothered to enforce repercussions.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Xerah » Fri May 15, 2020 9:36 pm

Lexx wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:11 pm
If people are endemically gaming the current slavery system to do what is listed. The fix should honestly come from characters IC within the world putting a stop to it. Never mind the fact that this behavior is more endemic in the underdark than it is above. Where players alternate between "chainbreaking bad and we punish you" and "Chainbreaking fine if we like you and we reward you freedom if you do what we like." entirely dependently on if the players in question like the person or not..

That's my 2 copper on the subject. Keep the mechanics the same. If people aren't wanting to enforce the IC repercussions for chainbreaking or making a slave lightly and playing it as outcast lite. Then that shouldn't be mechanically enforced because people aren't willing/bothered to enforce repercussions.
It’s not only that. It’s also that the current system is silly. Not just for the slaves and the owners but also for the “good” people who have to decide who’s gonna pay the 500000 gold this time when it happens to an “important” character.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Quidix » Fri May 15, 2020 9:50 pm

The main thing I'd change is making it much harder to escape slavery / buy freedom - getting freedom should be an exceptional scenario.

Beyond that, I don't believe slaves should or need to be punished with a host of mechanical limitations.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Lexx » Fri May 15, 2020 11:10 pm

Xerah wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:36 pm
Lexx wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:11 pm
If people are endemically gaming the current slavery system to do what is listed. The fix should honestly come from characters IC within the world putting a stop to it. Never mind the fact that this behavior is more endemic in the underdark than it is above. Where players alternate between "chainbreaking bad and we punish you" and "Chainbreaking fine if we like you and we reward you freedom if you do what we like." entirely dependently on if the players in question like the person or not..

That's my 2 copper on the subject. Keep the mechanics the same. If people aren't wanting to enforce the IC repercussions for chainbreaking or making a slave lightly and playing it as outcast lite. Then that shouldn't be mechanically enforced because people aren't willing/bothered to enforce repercussions.
It’s not only that. It’s also that the current system is silly. Not just for the slaves and the owners but also for the “good” people who have to decide who’s gonna pay the 500000 gold this time when it happens to an “important” character.
I respectfully disagree with the comment of the current system being silly. The example you give sounds like less of a slavery issue than a prisoner system issue. Or not the right collar being applied/slavery being misused. No one should be getting perma-collared that didn't agree to it OOC first.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Jack Oat » Fri May 15, 2020 11:34 pm

A lot of these arguments should be in-character discussions between PCs of how interactions with slaves (both your own and others') should be conducted and the repercussions that should occur in-character for outliers.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by magistrasa » Sat May 16, 2020 12:33 am

The outcast tag is evidence enough that the devs are more than willing and able to step in when concepts are playing out in the world contrary to their intentions. Outcasts palling around with do-gooders was eyeroll-worthy. Slave behavior in the Underdark is straight-up poisonous to the atmosphere. It's always been pretty bad, but over time it's only getting worse.

IC actions and efforts are only likely to create momentary lapses of acceptable standards in what's overall a poor dynamic - because when we get right down to it, the reason why things have gotten to this point is simply due to the fact that the mechanics make it so that no other dynamic or relationship between slaves and free peoples really makes sense. Free underdarkers will never trust slaves because they know how temporary slavery can be, no matter how much work might go into preventing freedom. Slaves will never really have their status as a lesser being ingrained into their being, because the only drawback to their slavery is an inability to participate in Andunor's farcical election cycle and the occasional ill-timed slave caller yoink. There's a huge burden and a high standard of consistent quality roleplay before people generally even bother interacting with slave characters, because that's how little trust people have in the system. Lots of people will literally warn people against buying slaves, IC and OOC, because it's simply not worth the risk to one's reputation or well-being. Nearly every underdarker can attest to having heard things like, "Don't bother with slaves, most slaves are just surface spies," or, "You have to pour attention into it or it'll escape as soon as you look away." Everyone knows a phenomenal slave roleplayer - I know a healthy handful - but the well has been thoroughly poisoned and the best antidote at this point is probably going to have to come from the devs.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by WJLIII3 » Sat May 16, 2020 6:01 am

Love Kuma's solution proposal.

For my own part I was pretty shocked at how repercussion-less getting free was to life in Andunor. I think making freed slaves into some kind of "UD Outcast" is perfectly reasonable, especially if you cut out the bribe option. Or, hell, you could even leave it in. As long as portal access goes, they can be outed. I guess it would still make people use the UD for easier leveling, but at least the line of effect would be clearer, that you can stay there and be a slave, or leave and be free.

Of course, if the concept becomes a purely "escape to the surface" sort of path for freedom, I do hope the "non-good" requisite will be looked at again, cause that would be kinda silly.

But then, I'd always felt that the "path to the surface" plot is really the only worthwhile addition of slavery to the server. Servility doesn't require a system or any repercussions to roleplay. I was very surprised while reading this entire thread at how entirely focused on the idea of long-term, fixed slaves who intend to RP slaves everyone was. I have always considered the purpose of the system to be the "path to freedom" and the ensuing RP, not the slavery and its ensuing RP.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Algol » Sat May 16, 2020 7:11 am

Perhaps another "tier" of slavery could be added.

1) Prisoner. Remains as it is.

2) Bonded Servant, the new tier. The can be bought and sold, they can't be made during creation. They can either bribe their way out (not as expensive as it currently is) or do some tasks/writs for the city till their "debt" is repaid. Perhaps to avoid abuse make this only avaible to UD races... And to surface races via a DM token. When the tag is removed thins go back the as they were (unless you do the FOIG quest... then you are discraminated agains in Anduor)

3) Slave, any character can become one and it's the only type of slavery a character can start with. No way to bribe out of and only way to remove the collar is either via the FOIG quest or through a DM. Doin the FOIG quest makes you a known enemy of the city and stuff in Kumas suggestion and maybe even worse happens.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Kuma » Sat May 16, 2020 8:44 am

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Eira » Sat May 16, 2020 10:37 am

Algol wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 7:11 am
Perhaps another "tier" of slavery could be added.
Fully in support of this and Kuma's ideas.

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