Underdark Slavery

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed May 13, 2020 5:26 pm

Nitro wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:48 pm
What defines a good slave though? A lot of people seem to have in their mind the image of a groveling brow-beaten urchin. What about bodyguard slaves? Gladiator slaves? Scholar slaves, laborer slaves, linguist slaves etc?

Why should a gladiator slave, skilled and powerful in combat, knowing full well they are valuable to their owner, let some other random push them around when they could easily overpower them? What is to say a slave would escape immediately just because they can overpower their master? (Disregarding entirely that that's impossible with the Arelith slavery system) What if they enjoy their station, give up freedom for fame and a cushy life doing something they enjoy while letting someone else do the hard thinking and take care of them?

I'm kind of feeling like a lot of people are giving off "you're doing it wrong" vibes because the way others RP their slaves don't line up with how they think they should RP their slaves.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:01 pm
To not be snide -

If we can't police it, should it exist?

I understand that's Big Brother of me, but if we have characters who's roleplay cannot be reprimanded then perhaps that avenue of roleplay shouldn't be allowed in the first place. If DMs don't have the capacity to create parameters around Slave roleplay, nor give out consequences to those that breach that roleplay ... it just sounds like it'd be easier if it didn't exist.
May as well be rid of Paladins, Warlocks or any other class that people have strong opinions about how they should or should not be RP'd then, they face the exact same dilemma that grumpycat mentioned about how to enforce it all.
This - basically.

We do enforce it, see the above. But we also try to be relitivly tolerant of concepts at least to a point. I'm not entirely sure why the same shouldn't be true of slavery.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Ebonstar » Wed May 13, 2020 6:00 pm

I think too much is being repeated about slaves and mechanical power

simple rule of thumb- if you choose to be a slave character it doesnt matter if you have phenomenal cosmic power or not

you as a player have made a conscious choice to play a owned being, and as such you as that player should follow the basic rules that owned beings would follow

rule 1 - all free beings are of higher standing than your character is and should always be shown proper behavior - doesnt matter if that free being is a drow or a goblin, being free trumps being collared period end of story
- this does not mean you wont work to try to be free and get to the surface again if you were captured when not in public sight, but born slaves ie from level 1 wouldnt know how to act being free for they never have even comprehended such

rule 2 - all slaves are equal, unless one is put above another

rule 3 - all slaves are valuable property in some shape and or fashion - as a guard, a consort, a pit fighter, etc - it makes sense to be a proud slave, but that doesnt mean you forget the first rule

if you as a player cannot follow these simple three rules, then you should not play a slave in any regard

by not acting as a slave would in the underdark does two things.

it breaks immersion that everyone else works so hard to create

it shows that player ego and mechanics are more important that creating the story, of which Arelith revolves around
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Skane » Wed May 13, 2020 6:18 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:00 pm
I think too much is being repeated about slaves and mechanical power

simple rule of thumb- if you choose to be a slave character it doesnt matter if you have phenomenal cosmic power or not

you as a player have made a conscious choice to play a owned being, and as such you as that player should follow the basic rules that owned beings would follow

rule 1 - all free beings are of higher standing than your character is and should always be shown proper behavior - doesnt matter if that free being is a drow or a goblin, being free trumps being collared period end of story
- this does not mean you wont work to try to be free and get to the surface again if you were captured when not in public sight, but born slaves ie from level 1 wouldnt know how to act being free for they never have even comprehended such

rule 2 - all slaves are equal, unless one is put above another

rule 3 - all slaves are valuable property in some shape and or fashion - as a guard, a consort, a pit fighter, etc - it makes sense to be a proud slave, but that doesnt mean you forget the first rule

if you as a player cannot follow these simple three rules, then you should not play a slave in any regard

by not acting as a slave would in the underdark does two things.

it breaks immersion that everyone else works so hard to create

it shows that player ego and mechanics are more important that creating the story, of which Arelith revolves around
If I'm a slave who can suplex the man disrespecting me into dust, then I have no reason to respect him. Mechanics ARE RP, it doesn't matter if someone is free, they don't own me.

Being a slave, doesn't mean you're not a person with your own thoughts and feelings. A slave can be just as brave as another is cowardly; as foolhardy as another is cautious.

If a person has a problem with how a slave is acting, it should be taken up with the person who owns them; slaves are not a communal resource, disrespecting one is the same as disrespecting the property of it's owner.

As for immersion, if I ever saw a half orc grovel before a goblin just because the horc is wearing a collar, that would damage my sense of immersion far more than the horc saying literally anything else.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Bunnysmack » Wed May 13, 2020 6:39 pm

There IS a social system in place for dealing with slaves that act flippant: The aggrieved citizen talks to their owner, demanding that disciplinary action be taken and/or restitution is paid to the angered party. Barring that, use a slave summoner to lock them in a cage and exact your PC revenge that way (but, if you skipped the above step of protocol, don't be surprised if the slave's owner comes looking for you later with a bone to pick).

No, the slavery system isn't perfect, but I ask the nay sayers WHAT complicated social simulation set up is perfect? At the end of the day, people play as slaves to have fun in RP that they aim to enjoy playing. There are plenty of options built in for asserting dominance over a slave, because if a master continues to keep a slave that is pissing everyone off, that master's local reputation will suffer catastrophically, and in Andunor: Reputation is the most valuable currency there is. So, either the problematic slave's master will deal with the problem, or the master will become irrelevant, at which point the angry citizenry can freely lock the slave in a teleportation cage with about 20 hostile fog effects. The argument about "it's breaking my immersion" is flawed in the extreme given that there ARE tools to fix said issues. Having encountered the problem a few times, I know for a fact that the tools in place do work!

If the issue, instead, is an OOC motivated burning need to dominate other players and keep them under your heel, you should take that somewhere other than Arelith. Behind every slave is an actual player, they deserve to have fun too, your experience doesn't take priority over theirs simply because the PC they are currently using has a tag next to their name that reads "(Slave)." If we make slave RP a miserable experience from an OOC perspective there will BE no more slaves, because no one will enjoy taking up the role.
Last edited by Bunnysmack on Wed May 13, 2020 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed May 13, 2020 6:54 pm

I don't think the problem has been Slavery in Andunor, it's been slaves running around the Surface. Not all are bad - of course not, but if you're strolling around Bendir with the [slave] tag as if it doesn't matter... what then?

And fair point, @Nitro and GrumpyCat, but I'll counter in that Slaves/Outcasts/new UD thing are way more in the crosshairs of "what is good" than paladins, warlock, etc. And while many players have at least a loose understanding of what makes a "good" paladin, I would argue not nearly as many have an idea of what a "good" slave is. Or even that you can have a slave that is an elite military corp that directly serves you and could functionally have more political power than settlement leaders.

There's actual real world misconceptions of slavery in history. There's two mountains to climb in proliferating these ideas in game - the actual world of Arelith itself, and educating the player. Kuma has touched on this.

But again, a lot of adversarial, torture-fetish, and Arelithian "lore" doesn't setup slavery favourably. Slavery used to be a thing that some good guy endured for the sake of some big bad ebil plot that got Surfacers involved temporarily in the Underdark. Slavery is now more systemic, and it's been pointed out how it's really impossible for a third-party Surfacer to free a slave that is at all reluctant to free themselves.

Even the concept of "freedom" is somehow contrived in this conversation. Free to do what, exactly? Free from what, exactly?

A part of me constantly questions what is the character design space for slavery. A part of me is curious if Slaves exist to act as a go-between between Surfacers and Andunor. If its the case of the former, I guess I can't argue. If its the case of the latter, I'd say there are better ideas.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by xanrael » Wed May 13, 2020 7:47 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:54 pm
Slavery is now more systemic, and it's been pointed out how it's really impossible for a third-party Surfacer to free a slave that is at all reluctant to free themselves.

....

A part of me constantly questions what is the character design space for slavery.
That goes both ways, a slaver cannot enslave someone that is at all reluctant to be enslaved. Same with trying to convert someone from one religious faith to another. No matter how much RP weight or sense a 3rd party believes their plan has, it is up to the player of the PC in question to make the decision. I think sometimes people forget that their individual interactions with another PC are likely a minority of their total interactions and expect them to trump anything else they haven't seen.

As for the other portion, personally I think that part of evil is the idea of capturing and control. Sometimes conflict can hit a wall where you get one side saying "You have to bend the knee." and the other "Sir Tom will never bow down!" A player having the slave tag is to a certain extent saying "hey I'm cool with being on the business end of that RP [within reason]".

That said, I tend to play at odd times and haven't seen slaves on the surface except two examples, one was legit seeking freedom and was at the end of that little RP arc and another didn't want freedom and was treated as brainwashed and escorted out. I'm assuming you're seeing more of the "not seeking freedom and people respond with tea parties" or something similar?

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Anomandaris » Wed May 13, 2020 7:53 pm

I was probably a perfect example of what people would say is “the problem.” One of my PCs owned two slaves, which while were definitely seen as “assets” and not fully free or autonomous, were treated very well and given a lot of leeway. They were protected and in essence friends of my PC behind closed doors. In public there was more deference but it was mostly for show to not lose face as a weak slave owner. There were ic motivations for all of this.

I think this is a good example of a complicated situation. It was fully rp’d out and made sense ic but it made for a very luxurious situation for the slave PC. And it would have been very difficult for anyone to challenge their behavior ic without a substantial political power base, so it wasn’t worth the risk just to discipline a less than deferent slave.

That being said I did experience the ic “anxiety” of it causing political blow back on me. I did feel optical pressure to be stern in public and not have all this found out. To me that means the culture was there to a sufficient degree to make that kind of thing, taboo.

This is the solution IMO. The rp of the community not the slave. If a slave is being petulant and the master is insulating them from repercussions or protecting them, call out the master publicly for their weakness. If you see this happen and it makes sense ic, support calling them out and it will make everyone a bit more mindful of their position. As much as people talk about mechanics and power... influence, respect, reputation and all that is a very big deal in Andunor.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Nitro » Wed May 13, 2020 9:55 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:00 pm
rule 1 - all free beings are of higher standing than your character is and should always be shown proper behavior - doesnt matter if that free being is a drow or a goblin, being free trumps being collared period end of story
- this does not mean you wont work to try to be free and get to the surface again if you were captured when not in public sight, but born slaves ie from level 1 wouldnt know how to act being free for they never have even comprehended such

rule 2 - all slaves are equal, unless one is put above another
Why though? I challenge these two points in particular because they're essentially your headcanon. There's nothing that makes the slave of a powerful noble lower in social standing than a homeless free goblin. You're just saying "This is what I want slaves to be, everyone else is doing it wrong".

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by magistrasa » Wed May 13, 2020 10:34 pm

This is why comprehensive lore and a standard of expectations is important, kids.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu May 14, 2020 12:15 am

Skane wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:18 pm
Ebonstar wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:00 pm
I think too much is being repeated about slaves and mechanical power

simple rule of thumb- if you choose to be a slave character it doesnt matter if you have phenomenal cosmic power or not

you as a player have made a conscious choice to play a owned being, and as such you as that player should follow the basic rules that owned beings would follow

rule 1 - all free beings are of higher standing than your character is and should always be shown proper behavior - doesnt matter if that free being is a drow or a goblin, being free trumps being collared period end of story
- this does not mean you wont work to try to be free and get to the surface again if you were captured when not in public sight, but born slaves ie from level 1 wouldnt know how to act being free for they never have even comprehended such

rule 2 - all slaves are equal, unless one is put above another

rule 3 - all slaves are valuable property in some shape and or fashion - as a guard, a consort, a pit fighter, etc - it makes sense to be a proud slave, but that doesnt mean you forget the first rule

if you as a player cannot follow these simple three rules, then you should not play a slave in any regard

by not acting as a slave would in the underdark does two things.

it breaks immersion that everyone else works so hard to create

it shows that player ego and mechanics are more important that creating the story, of which Arelith revolves around
If I'm a slave who can suplex the man disrespecting me into dust, then I have no reason to respect him. Mechanics ARE RP, it doesn't matter if someone is free, they don't own me.
I'm currently playing a guard recruit - catch is, the recruit is an epic level true flame. Except this isn't a catch. If someone disrespects him, he can't just haul off and suplex(hellball/Gruin) them into the dirt, depending on who they are. He could, but that would reflect poorly on his superiors, because it shows that they enable those with a lack of self-control. Perhaps the person being disrespectful is an important political negotiator - not knowing my place and mouthing off could again look bad on my superiors, possibly cost me my position because of it, and possibly even cost my superiors their position if they attempted to shield me from the repercussions.

If you're playing a slave, practically everyone who isn't a slave in Andunor is in the position above you that said superior officer or important political negotiator occupies, and if you don't treat them like it, your owner looks like they don't discipline their slaves or teach them proper respect.

Now, maybe your character isn't down for "proper respect." I'd then argue it's the job of the owner (and perhaps a dozen or so friends, you can't suplex them ALL most likely) to break your character into submission.

If there is no room for your character to ever adapt to these behaviors and situations, Slave RP might not be the best thing for that character, unless you intend for it to end in their violent death or in violent deaths that result in your freedom, but if there's no give and take you can't really expect anyone else to be heavily interested in engaging that growth for you.

I really think Ebon hit the nail on the head in their earlier post, and I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of similar sentiment as an official set of guidelines to set mentioned standard of expectations.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Wrips » Thu May 14, 2020 1:14 am

But why free people should be entitled to a previously determined treatment as OOC guideline? Why would two or even a hundred slaves act the same, despite having distinct experiences as a slave and distinct backgrounds.

Considering the slave is also a PC, much like their master and the other free people, why should their behavior as a slave be policed as a set of OOC guidelines? Why free PCs aren't solving a problem that, at first, looks to be purely IC? Are slave PCs wrong to manipulate others to treat them with a semblance of dignity? Are slave PCs wrong to use treat of force (at their own peril!) to demand others to treat them with a semblance of dignity?

As long as the player is not ignoring consequences of their actions or playing outlandish character concepts (like cordorian farm girl slave maidens going to Andunor to pick flowers) that actually hurts the setting, why should their agency be curtailed in favor of some kind of "meta protection" towards the other free citizens?

If we decide to railroad and dictate how slaves should be played, I don't think it will fit non-commoner PCs anymore.

I also completely agree with Bunnysmack posted.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by My decency » Thu May 14, 2020 1:43 am

Hazard wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 4:16 am
A slave is being leased to me from the city/slavemaster. It is everyone's slave, not just mine. I am the master, but the slave belongs to the culture that enslaves it, otherwise it would have no slavemaster collar and would report directly to me and only me. That's not the case, anyone can summon it and should I vanish the slavemaster will re-sell my slave.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Rockstar1984 » Thu May 14, 2020 11:32 am

People are indeed making slaves and treating it as though they are making outcasts because outcasts need a reward now. When you take the slave background and get freed, you're basically an outcast that has a few benfits of being a surfacer, and this is appealing to those who want to make outcasts but can't.

To my knowledge (Someone can correct me if I'm wrong) a freed background slave can own things on the surface and the UD, they can become a citizen in a surface settlement (Not sure about an Andunor district though), and they can use the Hub portal. They get a lot of accessibility to the UD and the surface. I would even argue being a freed slave with the background is better than being an outcast. Actually I do believe this has been a problem well before outcasts required a reward. So switching that up so a freed slave doesn't have that accessibility would be a great deterrent for people trying to abuse it. Once a slave is freed, Andunor rejects them and they have to actually be a surfacer, instead of having the weird status that they currently have. This wouldn't fix all of the problems about slaves but it would cut down on the slaves that don't even act like slaves.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Drowboy » Thu May 14, 2020 11:34 am

Rockstar1984 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:32 am
People are indeed making slaves and treating it as though they are making outcasts because outcasts need a reward now. When you take the slave background and get freed, you're basically an outcast that has a few benfits of being a surfacer, and this is appealing to those who want to make outcasts but can't.

To my knowledge (Someone can correct me if I'm wrong) a freed background slave can own things on the surface and the UD, they can become a citizen in a surface settlement (Not sure about an Andunor district though), and they can use the Hub portal. They get a lot of accessibility to the UD and the surface. I would even argue being a freed slave with the background is better than being an outcast. Actually I do believe this has been a problem well before outcasts required a reward. So switching that up so a freed slave doesn't have that accessibility would be a great deterrent for people trying to abuse it. Once a slave is freed, Andunor rejects them and they have to actually be a surfacer, instead of having the weird status that they currently have. This wouldn't fix all of the problems about slaves but it would cut down on the slaves that don't even act like slaves.
The fun thing about this is we're starting to hit a cycle where these freed outcast slaves are taking on slaves that are, I'm guessing, going to become freed outcast slaves that- etc.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Rockstar1984 » Thu May 14, 2020 11:41 am

Drowboy wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:34 am
Rockstar1984 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:32 am
People are indeed making slaves and treating it as though they are making outcasts because outcasts need a reward now. When you take the slave background and get freed, you're basically an outcast that has a few benfits of being a surfacer, and this is appealing to those who want to make outcasts but can't.

To my knowledge (Someone can correct me if I'm wrong) a freed background slave can own things on the surface and the UD, they can become a citizen in a surface settlement (Not sure about an Andunor district though), and they can use the Hub portal. They get a lot of accessibility to the UD and the surface. I would even argue being a freed slave with the background is better than being an outcast. Actually I do believe this has been a problem well before outcasts required a reward. So switching that up so a freed slave doesn't have that accessibility would be a great deterrent for people trying to abuse it. Once a slave is freed, Andunor rejects them and they have to actually be a surfacer, instead of having the weird status that they currently have. This wouldn't fix all of the problems about slaves but it would cut down on the slaves that don't even act like slaves.
The fun thing about this is we're starting to hit a cycle where these freed outcast slaves are taking on slaves that are, I'm guessing, going to become freed outcast slaves that- etc.
Yikes. I'd think that was cool if it was freed slaves actually being freed slaves trying to legitimately help free slaves. But doing that to further cheese the system? Daaamn. I hadn't even thought of that. If that really is happening, that's just ridiculous.

Oh the year was 1778...


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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Chosen Son » Thu May 14, 2020 12:11 pm

Cycle of slaves, being freed, and freeing even more slaves is going to be far more problematic thing then outcasts being plentiful. Really hope that assessment of things is wrong.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Ork » Thu May 14, 2020 12:32 pm

The entire reason the slave collar was semi-permanent was because of the mantra "IC actions have IC consequences" but every discussion here is about empowering player choice. The slave collar does not make sense when accounting for player choice. Let's just be done with the system.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Apothys » Thu May 14, 2020 12:33 pm

I've noticed Slaves gaining freedom then wandering above and below Arelith freely. Maybe a slave should choose to become outcast if they remain below?

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by CrystalRL » Thu May 14, 2020 12:37 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:32 pm
The entire reason the slave collar was semi-permanent was because of the mantra "IC actions have IC consequences" but every discussion here is about empowering player choice. The slave collar does not make sense when accounting for player choice. Let's just be done with the system.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Flower Power » Thu May 14, 2020 12:53 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:00 pm


rule 1 - all free beings are of higher standing than your character is and should always be shown proper behavior - doesnt matter if that free being is a drow or a goblin, being free trumps being collared period end of story
- this does not mean you wont work to try to be free and get to the surface again if you were captured when not in public sight, but born slaves ie from level 1 wouldnt know how to act being free for they never have even comprehended such
This is a silly statement. There are plenty of examples in the history of the world where being enslaved could elevate your status significantly above many freedmen - especially in places that came to rely upon castes of highly educated slaves for administrative or bureaucratic service. There are many more beyond that where becoming enslaved granted you a mess of economic, political or social benefits and protections that weren't extended to many freedmen (there are even examples of this in the Forgotten Realms setting.)

Trying to make the blanket statement that all approaches to slavery on Arelith must follow the example of American-style chattel slavery just robs the system of any hope of having nuance or capacity for interesting storylines beyond a string of somewhat masturbatory power trips that ultimately threatens to rob one half of the players (not characters) in the relationship of their capacity to have a degree of agency over their character's stories. Frankly, it also ends up usually treading into territory that Arelith probably shouldn't be touching with a 10' pole, so:
Ork wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:32 pm
The entire reason the slave collar was semi-permanent was because of the mantra "IC actions have IC consequences" but every discussion here is about empowering player choice. The slave collar does not make sense when accounting for player choice. Let's just be done with the system.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Ebonstar » Thu May 14, 2020 2:10 pm

Flower Power wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:53 pm
Ebonstar wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:00 pm


rule 1 - all free beings are of higher standing than your character is and should always be shown proper behavior - doesnt matter if that free being is a drow or a goblin, being free trumps being collared period end of story
- this does not mean you wont work to try to be free and get to the surface again if you were captured when not in public sight, but born slaves ie from level 1 wouldnt know how to act being free for they never have even comprehended such
This is a silly statement. There are plenty of examples in the history of the world where being enslaved could elevate your status significantly above many freedmen - especially in places that came to rely upon castes of highly educated slaves for administrative or bureaucratic service. There are many more beyond that where becoming enslaved granted you a mess of economic, political or social benefits and protections that weren't extended to many freedmen (there are even examples of this in the Forgotten Realms setting.)

Trying to make the blanket statement that all approaches to slavery on Arelith must follow the example of American-style chattel slavery just robs the system of any hope of having nuance or capacity for interesting storylines beyond a string of somewhat masturbatory power trips that ultimately threatens to rob one half of the players (not characters) in the relationship of their capacity to have a degree of agency over their character's stories. Frankly, it also ends up usually treading into territory that Arelith probably shouldn't be touching with a 10' pole, so:
for one that statement isnt silly in the least, right now slaves have very little guidelines, and as such you get players who want to use the collar as an easy way to level up and then break free with full access above and below

dont go by historical context and the rules make perfect sense for the Underdark

slaves under collar in the UD dont have easy lives, they are not like a poodle with its own bed and food bowl

they live in mud huts in a warded cavern if they are lucky enough to find a hut on their own.

they are owned by creatures that are what in lore are used in childrens tales to cause fear of the dark if they dont obey their parents ie dont do your chores or eat your vegetables or when your asleep the (insert monster here) will come and get you

slaves are the lowest rung below the dungheap, and players who choose this type of character play them very well, and some might earn their freedom over time.

all classes have rules races have restrictions and guidelines so why should slaves not have the same

much easier for the dms when watching to police those few who are taking the collar to circumvent the outcast reward need, if said guidelines for slave play are put in place.

in turn those who enjoy slave rp be it from creation or from capture have something to go by as well
Yes I can sign

Nitro
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Nitro » Thu May 14, 2020 2:57 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:10 pm
for one that statement isnt silly in the least, right now slaves have very little guidelines, and as such you get players who want to use the collar as an easy way to level up and then break free with full access above and below

dont go by historical context and the rules make perfect sense for the Underdark

slaves under collar in the UD dont have easy lives, they are not like a poodle with its own bed and food bowl

they live in mud huts in a warded cavern if they are lucky enough to find a hut on their own.

they are owned by creatures that are what in lore are used in childrens tales to cause fear of the dark if they dont obey their parents ie dont do your chores or eat your vegetables or when your asleep the (insert monster here) will come and get you

slaves are the lowest rung below the dungheap, and players who choose this type of character play them very well, and some might earn their freedom over time.

all classes have rules races have restrictions and guidelines so why should slaves not have the same

much easier for the dms when watching to police those few who are taking the collar to circumvent the outcast reward need, if said guidelines for slave play are put in place.

in turn those who enjoy slave rp be it from creation or from capture have something to go by as well
Image
Image
So explain to me again how that isn't just your own headcanon and feeling on how a slave should be played, and why anyone else should have to conform to your view on slavery in particular.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu May 14, 2020 6:22 pm

Nitro wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:57 pm
"This slave is uncommonly well-threaded;"*snip*

The word uncommon given in the description very strongly implies that this is not your typical slave, and that in most circumstances you should expect a slave to be less than what you're seeing. While it doesn't go on to imply all slaves are mistreated, this again refers back to my earlier sentiment- this slave points out that he is well-treated because he is a slave and his position is well-maintained.

Hauling off and suplexing the guy mouthing off is probably not something this slave does, since that wouldn't make his reputable merchant friend look good.

You've given a demonstrable example of how slaves can be more than just a broken urchin, but no evidence that they usually are, which is expressed as unlikely in your own cited example (again, "uncommonly.")

I seem to recall some fairly grisly descriptions of certain areas of the slave pits. Perhaps putting some of those up alongside that image might paint a more well-rounded picture to suss out where in the middle both sides of the discussion should meet.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

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Rockstar1984
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Rockstar1984 » Thu May 14, 2020 7:00 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:32 pm
The entire reason the slave collar was semi-permanent was because of the mantra "IC actions have IC consequences" but every discussion here is about empowering player choice. The slave collar does not make sense when accounting for player choice. Let's just be done with the system.
Except that it's the player's choice to put the slave collar on? No matter how much a character might be beaten and dragged down icly, it's ultimately the player's choice to put it on or not, and it's the player's choice to pick the slave background. I'm not sure what you mean here. No one can force it on a character.

Oh the year was 1778...


Archnon
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Archnon » Thu May 14, 2020 7:14 pm

Rockstar1984 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:00 pm
Ork wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:32 pm
The entire reason the slave collar was semi-permanent was because of the mantra "IC actions have IC consequences" but every discussion here is about empowering player choice. The slave collar does not make sense when accounting for player choice. Let's just be done with the system.
Except that it's the player's choice to put the slave collar on? No matter how much a character might be beaten and dragged down icly, it's ultimately the player's choice to put it on or not, and it's the player's choice to pick the slave background. I'm not sure what you mean here. No one can force it on a character.
I will premise this by saying that I think slavery is an abuses system, however...

Ultimately ig actions have ig consequences. If this needs changed, then form an RP possey to handle it. Mouthy slaves get beaten. Perhaps it is other slaves who are offended that one of their own thinks they are better than the rest. Perhaps it is a group of andunor citizens who form a coalition to put slaves , and occasionally masters that are too indulgent in their place.

Masters who are tough should not like masters who are indulgent. In world's without magic, slaves aren't allowed to be educated, aren't allowed weapons,have their social interaction limited, all with the aim of preventing revolt. These social norms are enforced by the collective on masters and slaves alike. Someone will round up a possey and put em in their place if either exceeds it, because it is dangerous for everyone.

Sounds like a great rp concept for a new faction if you ask me.

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