Underdark Slavery

[The GrumpyCat]

Some very good points here.

But one thing to keep in mind - We can add mechanics to assist certain ideas sure - but ultimatly the rp is up to you guys.

For example - Right now we have a method where anyone can summon a named slave. How often is this used? Very rarely. That's not on the mechanics, that is on us - the players.

You wanna see downtrodden slaves? Then that's also on you to rp.

Again - there are good points here. I'm really in agreement about slave quarters for example (In Sibiyad, in Sencliff and yes, more in Andunor). But some of the mechanical ideas... ok they may enforce things a little, but they still rely on a) people to use and b) the slave to react a certain way to.

[a shrouded figure]

Underdark leveling and writs aren't just a "little" better than surface...they are a "lot" better.

I kinda think we should just improve surface QOL and make everyone happier and remove the incentive to make cheese-slaves in the first place.

Wow this x100, I thought I was the only one who found UD leveling /incredibly/ convenient.

[Skibbles]

Some very good points here.

But one thing to keep in mind - We can add mechanics to assist certain ideas sure - but ultimatly the rp is up to you guys.

For example - Right now we have a method where anyone can summon a named slave. How often is this used? Very rarely. That's not on the mechanics, that is on us - the players.

You wanna see downtrodden slaves? Then that's also on you to rp.

Again - there are good points here. I'm really in agreement about slave quarters for example (In Sibiyad, in Sencliff and yes, more in Andunor). But some of the mechanical ideas... ok they may enforce things a little, but they still rely on a) people to use and b) the slave to react a certain way to.

I think having the slave's name on the collar could go a long way to this. It can be pretty difficult and frustrating to put the fear into a slave if they know they can just not say their name and avoid the slave caller.

[Kuma]

i feel like we should be trying to come up with methods that aren't enforcing narrative through honestly cumbersome and clunky mechanics that can't really depict the full nuance of a person's status or the flexibility of stories, rather than dialing down even harder into it. that being said, removing long-standing mechanics like this is extremely unlikely, which is sort of a shame.

edit: i'd also add a reminder that the distinction between players and characters is still something to bear in mind. people play slaves because they have fun playing those characters. if the way they're playing those characters doesn't match with their role and the ability for them to play this role is challenged - whether it be mechanics or a concerted effort to enforce an IC standard - then understand that those players will move on. this may be the desired effect and is fine! if the gap is filled afterwards, though, is entirely based on whether or not that role's changes are still actually fun and enjoyable to play (even if for a different style of player).

[magistrasa]

Something worth bearing in mind when it comes to people treating slaves too "nice" is the fact that when it comes to conflict with slaves, the free person has a lot to lose. Reputation is everything in Andunor, and if your up-and-coming supervillain drow gets the crap beaten out of them in the middle of the Hub by a lingering epic level slave with a chip on their shoulder, no one is going to let them live it down. Meanwhile, the slave is already a slave - they have no reputation to lose. And if they're quick to start fights, how do you hold it against them? A lack of regard for one's life is sort of par the course for a slave, so a lack of respect for the consequences of PvP can be perfectly in-character. That's how you get loose cannons running around with the so-called "ruling" class reluctant to stop them.

[Archnon]

Underdark leveling and writs aren't just a "little" better than surface...they are a "lot" better.

I kinda think we should just improve surface QOL and make everyone happier and remove the incentive to make cheese-slaves in the first place.

Wow this x100, I thought I was the only one who found UD leveling /incredibly/ convenient.

This is true but this isn't the only reason. A significant portion of the slave RP i have encountered have been openly evil characters wanting to level in peace. If I am a Warlock, I can grind through the UD without harassment while on the surface, all the LG players would be down my throat. That is my best guess as to why you can only have evil slaves. This never made sense to me. Why can't I be a good slave who is down on his luck. Maybe the farm went under and I just need 3 squares and a cot to sleep on. Being a slave does not make someone evil. In fact, evil characters should be less likely to be slaves as they would rather stoop to crime than slavery to stay afloat.

I think there are things you can do to encourage RP but not necessarily hamper.
- Having all coin go through the master and not the slave for one.
- I also think that slaves should get the Mark of Humility (without the bonus ecl) while their collar is on. -2 might be just enough to avoid grinding the UD instead of the surface.
- Give slaves Mark of Destiny, with the benefits. Then, when they get ganked for picking a fight it matters more. It also means if they anger some important person by being mouthy, they can be summoned and dealt with, with a real consequence.
- Gate slavery behind a reward (though this will just encourage ooc coordination to be 'captured' and collared)

As far as more perks, I really don't think that is necessary. I do agree that giving slaves something to do IC could help. It would be fun to alter the slave system so that slaves that aren't owned are sold into districts automatically. Slaves would then be required to turn in X resources for the district stores every X amount of time.... say ic monthly. Slaves could choose their districts if they wanted. If they fail to do so, they get a penalty similar to being tired or hungry. You could cap the debt they owe at like 3 months of resources so you don't get too far over the barrel. This penalty would build until the slave contributed to the community, ala hunger. This penalty could be assessed to their masters district but in a lesser amount if they are owned. An inconvenience for most players that need to go out and find resources but something to actually encourage a slave mentality and give district leaders a reason to own slaves......Just an idea.

[Emotionaloverload]

This is true but this isn't the only reason. A significant portion of the slave RP i have encountered have been openly evil characters wanting to level in peace. If I am a Warlock, I can grind through the UD without harassment while on the surface, all the LG players would be down my throat. That is my best guess as to why you can only have evil slaves. This never made sense to me. Why can't I be a good slave who is down on his luck. Maybe the farm went under and I just need 3 squares and a cot to sleep on. Being a slave does not make someone evil. In fact, evil characters should be less likely to be slaves as they would rather stoop to crime than slavery to stay afloat.

+1

On another note, I do think there should be more to slaving than resource gathering. Slaves have skills and variety. Not all slaves are mules. Many suggestions I have seen on slavery (forums or chat) tend to restrict concept types or are just straight up not fun for players. Story and players need to be considered as much as setting.


-S

[dallion43]

Don't irritate the slaves!
There is enough of them those days to take over Andur, Cordor and the forums.

Actually lore wise I would think many slaves in a Drow Underdark city is normal, it just many of whom I meet with a slave tag give a vibe of
*I am a slave because it is a convinient mechanic to be in Anduur without being a monster or outcast.*

Is it a big deal? Should all slave PCs be punished with a mechanic because of that?
Imho, I don't think so.

I thought the PC description says *a slave of such and such* and this is enough for a PC to understand that a slave is in front of him?

[Anachorn]

Hi,

Just a thought, but what if rather than not allow slaves to use banks, or cap the amount they can keep, instead we implement that when a slave places gold in the bank it will be distributed between the slave, his owner, and the slaving service/bank?

I was thinking something like:
Slave: 40%
Owner: 40%
Bank: 20%

These are just arbitrary numbers, as long as all parts are substantial this will have several affects:

First, it will make slaves lives miserable, you can either keep gold on yourself and risk losing it when dying or lose a large chunk of it to your owner when you store it, making buying your way out of slavery harder. But this makes IC sense, a slave owner should profit from his slaves financially and not just through their RPed labor, and trying to both earn a living and maybe even someday freedom with your measly 40% will make slave lives much tougher and be a major reason a slave wishes to have freedom both ICly and OOCly.

Second, the bank/slaving service cut will make sure that if a slave and his owner are getting too cuddly and the owner gives back the slave his share, they will still lose a large percentage of the gold so this will still not be profitable.

Finally, a slave can do other stuff with his coins such as give them to someone else for safe keeping or buy expensive low-weighting items in shops to avoid paying that tax, but these are RP opportunities since he can get ripped off without the ability to complain, and his owner may become suspicious if he isn't receiving enough gold every week and stalk his slave to see what he does with his coins. (or we can even make it so an owner can receive report of what a slave buys, and even that he may not allow his slave to buy from shops).

All of this will take quite a bit of development, but will make sure slaves aren't happy and allow for more RP opportunities by giving slaves reasons to hate their masters, ways to cheat them, and possibility be punished by them if caught.

[Shadowy Reality]

All this banking stuff is kinda moot. Slaves can always just put gold in the gem scales and get Staters (is this what the yare called? I cannot remember). This will entirely bypass any banking system with only a loss of 10% for the slaves.

[Gouge Away]

Don't irritate the slaves!
There is enough of them those days to take over Andur, Cordor and the forums.

Actually lore wise I would think many slaves in a Drow Underdark city is normal, it just many of whom I meet with a slave tag give a vibe of
*I am a slave because it is a convinient mechanic to be in Anduur without being a monster or outcast.*

Is it a big deal? Should all slave PCs be punished with a mechanic because of that?
Imho, I don't think so.

I thought the PC description says *a slave of such and such* and this is enough for a PC to understand that a slave is in front of him?

I think a typical underdark city is similar to Rome, with multitudes more slaves than citizens. I also think we may as well accept that PC slaves are not part of the countless expendable masses who are worked to an early death in unimaginably nightmarish conditions, they are instead plucked from the herd because they have some potential to be more useful. Slaves could actually start that way instead of arriving on the boat— have the slavemaster pull them from the pits and tell them something to that effect, “I can get a high price for you” or something.

I wonder what would happen if you could bribe the slavemaster to take a slave away from someone and make them yours. That would of course favor the richest factions but could add another element to Anundor’s endless scheming, and of course be a good way to drain money from the economy.

[Baron Saturday]

I think there are things you can do to encourage RP but not necessarily hamper.
- Having all coin go through the master and not the slave for one.
- I also think that slaves should get the Mark of Humility (without the bonus ecl) while their collar is on. -2 might be just enough to avoid grinding the UD instead of the surface.
- Give slaves Mark of Destiny, with the benefits. Then, when they get ganked for picking a fight it matters more. It also means if they anger some important person by being mouthy, they can be summoned and dealt with, with a real consequence.
- Gate slavery behind a reward (though this will just encourage ooc coordination to be 'captured' and collared)

With the exception of the last, I would find all of those extremely hampering. And as someone who has rolled 2 reward-eligible characters in 5 years, I'd rather like to be able to play a human in the Underdark in my lifetime.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

The Slave-Master relationship needs to restrict the slave -- by mutual RP agreement.

Both players should *define* the limits of their fraught relationship.

Choosing, by mutual consent, One or More:-

- Limited Movement (You may only go here & here and do this).
- Limited Gear Ownership. (Gear belongs to the Master).
- Poor Food / Water / Clothing / Sanitation (Especially Brutish Masters).
- Military / Gladiatorial Service (Martial Prowess at Risk of Infirmity / Poor Medical Care).
- Limited Income. (Income is generated in the majority for the Master's benefit).
- Limited Savings. (Savings risk being raided by the Master).
- Arcane Misery. (Right to be Experimented Upon).
- Beast of Burden (The slave will be forced to carry heavy loads improperly baggaged).
- Sweat-House Labour. (The slave must craft for long hours in poor / toxic conditions).
- Limited Personal Time (The slave is a part-time PC and agrees to play a supporting role - only active when appropriate).
- Dark Witness (The slave is forced to witness the dark rites of the Underdark, testing their morals).
- Untethered Mind (The slave is forced to witness twisted and elder things, testing their sanity).

In my opinion, a well-played slave will enjoy deliberately putting the kabosh on their own ability to prosper. A well-played Master will enjoy giving the Slave degrees of freedom; then tugging the chains of control restricting them again. This could be cruel, deliberate, twisted or accidental. Both sides need to show a rising and falling of favour and fortune.


-- Tath.

[Apokriphos]

The problem - as many others have stated already, is two-fold:

• Humans get far more mechanical/RP location flexibility and aesthetic benefits in Arelith compared to other UD races.
• The Underdark has a straightforward and relatively easy leveling scheme for reward grinding.

Slaves are getting a reputation amongst the playerbase as being chosen primarily for these two reasons.

A mechanical penalty for slave PCs to disincentive players choosing slaves for these reasons would help address this issue.

I think the ideal suggestion is autoequipping slave PCs with a no stat unremovable amulet to represent their 'collar' that reveals their name similar to the old slave arena belt. This minor change would allow for more RP interaction with slave pcs (to address the anonymous slaves of 'friends' who quickly finish the FOIG freedom quest while avoiding the consequence of their slavery state) while also acting as a slight punishment (in missing amulet stats) so long as they are enslaved.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I'm not a big fan of artificial mechanical limitations on concepts like restricting gear slots or prestige classes. Prestige is something even a slave can acquire, making them a valuable resource to their owner- as I recall, there are specifically in-game conversations that point to this fact. "Prestige Class" in this regard and using the word "prestige" to limit slaves from them seems like a pretty potent reach; slaves should be able to do the same things mechanically as anyone else, with limitations imposed through RP.

Now- whether or not someone is playing a slave well certainly depends on circumstances and situations- I'd lean more towards some kind of ability for citizens of the city where the slave is owned to levee punishment against slaves and/or their owners when they act out- being responsible for your property is the same whether it's a bull that breaks things in a shop or a slave, and this would incentivize owners to cultivate a proper sense of subservience in their slaves while still allowing them to be useful servants. Perhaps in particularly egregious cases within the first two weeks of ownership, a slave-owner could "evict" the slave and get their gold back, as sort of a 'trial' period for slaves, to weed out those who ignore their role, rather than those who accept it and excel in it.

Why would you spend 500,000 gold on a handicapped servant when you could pay someone ten or fifteen thousand for the same short-term services needed and know they'll be fully capable, after all?

If it goes this far, I'd say just eliminate the slavery concept entirely, and introduce a "retainer" background instead- mercenaries that work in the underdark for the highest bidder. That would allow humans to serve in a monstrously dominated society without flouting slave protocol (and incentivize them to listen to their superiors if they want to get paid).

[Petrifictus]

I wonder what would happen if you could bribe the slavemaster to take a slave away from someone and make them yours. That would of course favor the richest factions but could add another element to Anundor’s endless scheming, and of course be a good way to drain money from the economy.

I would not encourage such system as it would be used to grief people and I believe that slave players has right OOC to choose who they wish to be owned by.

[Chosen Son]

I would not go about solving the issue by punishing all slaves, or making the experience miserable. That punishes those slaves that treat it properly, and with the amount of seriousness slave rp warrants. Better to instead report slaves that do not to dms, who can solve an ooc problem ooc. I think this important because while slavery should be miserable and frustrating IC, I dont think it should be miserable, or frustrating OOC.

[AstralUniverse]

I would not go about solving the issue by punishing all slaves, or making the experience miserable. That punishes those slaves that treat it properly, and with the amount of seriousness slave rp warrants. Better to instead report slaves that do not to dms, who can solve an ooc problem ooc. I think this important because while slavery should be miserable and frustrating IC, I dont think it should be miserable, or frustrating OOC.

This is more or less what I had in mind in my post in the first page which I later edited because I changed my mind somewhat. The real question is, and only the staff really can (not saying they should) answer, is the situation really bad RP-wise and are there too many reports to handle the problem case by case?

I was under the impression the answer to that is no.

I'm now under the impression that the answer to that is no, but because the system facilitates the bad situation, causing side observers to act in indifference and NOT send reports.

[The GrumpyCat]

Reguarding reporting slaves for bad RP.

Firstly I'm going to say that I do not believe we have had any single reports, of late, of slaves rping badly. Lots of people saying so 'generally' but no one contacting us saying 'Oye! Bob is rping slavery really badly!'

But this brings us to another question. What do we do about badly rped slaves?

Generally speaking, mostly we just deal with bad rp via rpr. There are some exceptions though. For example - in cases of greviously terribly played alignment ('Hi I'm a paladin and I murdered 30 children and ate their corpses yum yum!') we might enforce an alignment shift (which comes with a whole lot of baggage such as possible level or even character loss, but let's not get into that here.)
In cases of cheepening death ('you can kill and destroy me 100 times I'll always return!') then we look at MoDs.
In cases of being activly abuseive to the world concept - well that can go to even more serous places (Drow hanging around surface settlments, people playing gods, killing none hostile npcs really silly stuff).

What exactly -is- good rp for a slave?

if someone captures and enslaves a Myon elf, do you expect immedatly, them to grovvel in the dirt?
If a slave acts rebelliously at all - should they immedatly have their rpr dropped?
If a slave player feels uncomfortable with a scene, and says 'no' does that make them a poor roleplayer?

And how do we punish bad rp for slavery?
Remove their collar - Well that' just another way of getting free. A cheep, easy way in fact. Do we want to incentivse that? And isn'tr that also a 'punishment' on the player who's character owns said slave?
Lower their rpr - That might work sure (and is the best option) but again it doesn't neccesarly /force/ good roleplay on them.
Reduce their XP? Ban them? Delete their character? Isn't threatening them with punishment if they 'don't rp well' also a bit dangerous? Isn't that a bit harsh? 'Ok so as you're my slave now you give me all your gold and I've got some neat torture/bedroom scenes planned!' 'Whoa whoa - I don't feel comfortable with that.' 'TOUGH! You're my characters slave and you should do as my character says! If you don't I'll report you t o the Dms and you'll get banned!'

I mean I suppose there's an argument that we could wall slaves behind a higher rpr. But historically people havn't liked walling things behind rpr as the system does have it's weaknesses (e.g. dm's just catching people on). And it won't help with people who are collared In Play.

I'm not neccesarly saying it's a bad idea. I am saying that I think it's a problematic one.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

To not be snide -

If we can't police it, should it exist?

I understand that's Big Brother of me, but if we have characters who's roleplay cannot be reprimanded then perhaps that avenue of roleplay shouldn't be allowed in the first place. If DMs don't have the capacity to create parameters around Slave roleplay, nor give out consequences to those that breach that roleplay ... it just sounds like it'd be easier if it didn't exist.

[Nitro]

What defines a good slave though? A lot of people seem to have in their mind the image of a groveling brow-beaten urchin. What about bodyguard slaves? Gladiator slaves? Scholar slaves, laborer slaves, linguist slaves etc?

Why should a gladiator slave, skilled and powerful in combat, knowing full well they are valuable to their owner, let some other random push them around when they could easily overpower them? What is to say a slave would escape immediately just because they can overpower their master? (Disregarding entirely that that's impossible with the Arelith slavery system) What if they enjoy their station, give up freedom for fame and a cushy life doing something they enjoy while letting someone else do the hard thinking and take care of them?

I'm kind of feeling like a lot of people are giving off "you're doing it wrong" vibes because the way others RP their slaves don't line up with how they think they should RP their slaves.

To not be snide -

If we can't police it, should it exist?

I understand that's Big Brother of me, but if we have characters who's roleplay cannot be reprimanded then perhaps that avenue of roleplay shouldn't be allowed in the first place. If DMs don't have the capacity to create parameters around Slave roleplay, nor give out consequences to those that breach that roleplay ... it just sounds like it'd be easier if it didn't exist.

May as well be rid of Paladins, Warlocks or any other class that people have strong opinions about how they should or should not be RP'd then, they face the exact same dilemma that grumpycat mentioned about how to enforce it all.

[Itikar]

Thowing it here, and not because I like it, but what about making starting as a slave require minor award?

It certainly would turn away from UD slavery a few of those who see it as a way to level up easily, since they would need to level up another toon up to 16 first, and then delete it.

I honestly am not fond of awards in general and I have seen quite a few problematic slaves being those collared in game, which of course would remain as an option, but I still would see consistency with the fact Outcasts now require an award and slave rp being far from easy, especially pursuing it from level 1.

[Ork]

Remove the mechanical restrictions and tags from slaves. If you want to be a slave in Andunor, you have to earn it through roleplay.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Honestly, just remove the mechanic, collar, etc. It's prone to all sorts of not-so-stellar stuff from both owner players and slave players, does not encourage the involved players to set up an engaging structure through which they can interact, and railroads the entire thing into the representation of one particular type of slavery.

[xanrael]

I think it is more that there is a portion of the population that's not especially good at playing a role. I've seen plenty of PCs whether drow, orogs, humans in Cordor, random reward race, etc that I wouldn't personally say are very good RPers.

Human is just an extremely popular choice, the slave tag is very obvious, and the Outcast change is fresh that has people focusing on it. I don't think if you forcefully redistributed them that their RP quality would improve.

That's not even touching on how expectations can differ on that role as others have brought up either directly or indirectly in this thread.