Pixie Familiars

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Irongron » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:29 am

While I would love to see a familiar overhaul, it is a lot of work. There is a long outstanding request, in the meantime, for the imp to be adjusted to match the pixie, just as stated above. I won't pretend it is an ideal approach, but definitely an improvement.

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:17 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:08 am
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:06 am
Etc, etc, etc.
[etc. etc.]
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:06 am
Why people think rogues should be the only people able to get past a lock is beyond me- a hammer works as well as a lockpick if you swing it hard enough, and magic is magic. Seems like a very forced way to punish parties for not having a rogue available during a dungeon run.
It's about parity. Wizards get their cake and eat it too. Everyone else has to cross-class, which is blowing one of only three valuable resources to do something (classes). Mages not only aren't bothering to do that but are getting an entire epic tier 2nd character for nothing (as if it weren't already bad enough they can solo everything). You make it sound so horrible you have to party with someone in a social game.

Frankly, the day someone figures out how to code the game to prevent skill-dumping, nuke half the skills in the basin, and up the DCs of most traps and locks is the day I giggle with glee.
Focusing on this last part where we get to discussion, I'd also like to point out that the text you quoted specifically mentions party play, not solo play.

It's not impossible or uncommon to have a party of three or four people who don't have a rogue among them. This is not about it being horrible to solo, this is about what happens during playtimes when there either aren't rogues available as companions in your level range or they're all already taken.

Other classes are meant to have the tools to cope with traps and locks. This is not poor design. Poor design is gating loot and dungeon content behind a single class that won't always be available. Some people may think "glorified lockpicker" is a fun class to play, and I'm happy it works for them, but the rest of us aren't bad for not wanting something that isn't in any way a part of the original game design.

I love playing pure mages, but I don't think it'd be a truthful statement to say that a pure wizard sacrifices nothing by not multi-classing, and I think the proliferation of 26(27)wiz/4(3)<bard/ranger> builds on the server speak for themselves.

We agree on skill dumping, at least- maybe some day we'll get to talk about that.
Irongron wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:29 am
While I would love to see a familiar overhaul, it is a lot of work. There is a long outstanding request, in the meantime, for the imp to be adjusted to match the pixie, just as stated above. I won't pretend it is an ideal approach, but definitely an improvement.
While we've got you here, can I ask, from a server design perspective, if open lock/disable trap aren't in the books to be removed from familiars, what the principle is behind knock and find traps having such limited functionality? Using a spell slot per rest per lock or trap seems slightly more cost appropriate than summoning a familiar and having it hang back and be a non-combatant, unless I'm missing something.

This seems like it would also have the side-effect of giving people more leeway to pick other familiars, since they'd then have access to locks and traps without the pixie on a resting basis, and to my knowledge none of the currently available infinity-casting iterations have access to those spells.
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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by wulfburk » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:38 pm

It isnt gated behind a single class. Remove the pixie skills and a mage will still be able to open 99% of chests and doors, with just one point cross classed into disable trap and open lock plus with the skills equipment. A mage will require exactly the same effort like all other classes for something they shoudnt be special about. Sounds like a good change to me.

And maybe there woudnt be a lack of rogues if they actually could feel more useful.

The server seems so scared of nerfing mages its unbeliavable. They already get all the utility gimmicks, plus a rogue in their pocket. The impact of removing the pixie skills would be tiny compared to the lore change (since it will just bring mages to require the same effort as all other non rogues) yet this is treated as the end of the world. And since the pixie has certainly made every mage pick it, to fix that now its desired to add the skills to the imp instead of removing it from the pixie? In terms of developing time im sure removing the skills can be done just as easily.

This just baffles me, really.


And if removing the pixie skills hits assymetrically the wizard and the sorcerer classes, maybe its not that it shoudnt happen, but more that the sorcerer should be buffed slightly somewhere to even it out?

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:46 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:17 pm
While we've got you here, can I ask, from a server design perspective, if open lock/disable trap aren't in the books to be removed from familiars, what the principle is behind knock and find traps having such limited functionality? Using a spell slot per rest per lock or trap seems slightly more cost appropriate than summoning a familiar and having it hang back and be a non-combatant, unless I'm missing something.
What if Find Traps & Knock got overhauled into something along the lines of:

- Find Traps, in addition to finding all traps in an area, can be targeted to disarm a SINGLE trap.
- Knock is reduced to a single target as well BUT can unlock doors again.
- Both spells can unlock/disarm/detect up to DC 45+5/spell foci targets (so DC 60 for a caster with ESF Divination/Transmutation). This is obviously open for debate & tweaking as needed.

This makes these spells useful tools for clearing dungeons and getting loot without totally trivializing locks and traps as they did in vanilla NWN.

Thoughts?
Last edited by Baron Saturday on Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Wuthering » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:26 pm

Keep in mind with the lore change anyone with 10 lore can cast Knock from a scroll and those scrolls sell in some NPC magic shops so it's trivial to walk around with huge stacks of them. I think the spell is in an OK place now, it opens low to mid level chests and some low DC doors, but making it too good will really eliminate the reason for locked chests and entirely.

(Though that itself is a fair question, I think- since access to open locks and disable trap and knock spells is already ubiquitous why even have locked chests as we do now? maybe there's a more interesting way to do it, like putting loot in much higher DC trapped lockboxes you find in chests and can take with you to have a rogue disarm in town or something)

I'd also just throw out there, I am glad NWN/Arelith doesn't force you to always have 1 healer, 1 rogue, 1 tank, 1 dps in a party like most other games. Sharing roles and making it possible to go out with who your character would associate with rather than waiting until you find 1 of every correct class (and turning away those who aren't) is a feature, not a problem and I shudder when it's suggested making it so you always need a rogue to go out and no other class can handle traps. There's plenty of reasons to play a rogue (and bring one along) besides making them feel useful by opening locks and disarming.

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by -XXX- » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:55 pm

wulfburk wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:38 pm
It isnt gated behind a single class. Remove the pixie skills and a mage will still be able to open 99% of chests and doors, with just one point cross classed into disable trap and open lock plus with the skills equipment. A mage will require exactly the same effort like all other classes for something they shoudnt be special about. Sounds like a good change to me.
It's that remaining 1% that really counts, and you know it.

Along another vein: this topic seems to be completely missing the real "issue" here:
A pixie familiar represents the ability to open a single chest/shrine/weapon rack/armor stand/whatever container... 1x/per rest. If THAT alone undermines the sole reason for being of another character, then I would probably suggest that it's not the pixie familiar that's the real problem here...

Furthermore, find traps and knock have decreased functionality so that we could have lockable quarter doors. That's pretty much all there is to it.

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:13 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:46 pm
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:17 pm
While we've got you here, can I ask, from a server design perspective, if open lock/disable trap aren't in the books to be removed from familiars, what the principle is behind knock and find traps having such limited functionality? Using a spell slot per rest per lock or trap seems slightly more cost appropriate than summoning a familiar and having it hang back and be a non-combatant, unless I'm missing something.
What if Find Traps & Knock got overhauled into something along the lines of:

- Find Traps, in addition to finding all traps in an area, can be targeted to disarm a SINGLE trap.
- Knock is reduced to a single target as well BUT can unlock doors again.
- Both spells can unlock/disarm/detect up to DC 45+5/spell foci targets (so DC 60 for a caster with ESF Divination/Transmutation). This is obviously open for debate & tweaking as needed.

This makes these spells useful tools for clearing dungeons and getting loot without totally trivializing locks and traps as they did in vanilla NWN.

Thoughts?
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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:28 pm

We all know a great part of the artifact chests can be soloed by mages. You just get hasted and invisible, run through the whole dungeon and kill the boss with Dragon Knight and a couple of spells, it is not time consuming, it is not particularly hard.

Mages do this best as they have access to both long running invisibility, haste, Dragon Knight and a few critical spells, such as persistent AOEs (cloudkill, incendiary cloud) and straight direct damage with IGMS. What happens next is that the classes that do this best also have the easiest time unlocking/disarming the chests.

This shouldn't happen. Clerics and Druids can probably also solo the bosses, but they generally have a harder time. Druids to not have access to long haste to run through the dungeon, or invisibility. Clerics can, if they are trickery and travel, but even then I would say mages have a much better kit for doing the bosses. Note how these two classes cannot then easily disarm the chests if they are trapped. They either have ranks and a bunch of gear, or they are left with bashing as the only option.

I do not think Imps should be given the same kit, I actually think pixies should lose disarm trap entirely. As argued in this thread, wizards in particular will still likely be able to disarm the traps, they have the skillpoints to spare, but at least they are forced to invest in that, or carry disable trap gear, which takes precious inventory space.

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by wulfburk » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:35 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:55 pm
wulfburk wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:38 pm
It isnt gated behind a single class. Remove the pixie skills and a mage will still be able to open 99% of chests and doors, with just one point cross classed into disable trap and open lock plus with the skills equipment. A mage will require exactly the same effort like all other classes for something they shoudnt be special about. Sounds like a good change to me.
It's that remaining 1% that really counts, and you know it.
Using shortcut doors in one or two epic dungeons is the one that counts? Because thats basically the only ones beyond a mage and a pixie or beyond 1 point cross classed + gear. And yeah, 1x/per rest is obviously enough to open runic chests, the actual ones that count and are within the 99% i mentioned, so within the grasp of a mage with a pixie with no effort. At least all other classes have to do the negligible effort of getting some cheap disable trap and open lock equipment plus wasting 4 points in cross class skills. Is making so that mages have to do the same tiny effort to open chests such a blow to them?
Last edited by wulfburk on Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Aradin » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:41 pm

My two cents: pixies get open lock, imps get disable trap. Neither can do both.

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by theCountofMonteCristo » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:13 pm

My opinion on this: every choice should have a cost. If that choice gives you the equivalent of a whole rogue in your pocket, the cost should reflect that choice.

How I personally would adjust it:

:arrow: keep the rogue kit for the pixie, but cap it to be able to do everything but Runic chests. Give a reason to either take skill points or bring a rogue PC along.
:arrow: Divide the familiars (add more too) into Good, Neutral and Evil. Create a theme for them, such as "Rogue" and have the Pixie, imp and something from the Neutral list all mechanically the same. Make other themes for these familiars useful. Spotter, Sneaker, Ranged, Tanky, themes etc.

I think these two together would make the Pixie/imp have a 'cost' that is not always outweighed by the benefits. And even then, I'm not sure that the cost/benefit ratio would be perfect.

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by -XXX- » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:27 pm

wulfburk wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:35 pm
At least all other classes have to do the negligible effort of getting some cheap disable trap and open lock equipment plus wasting 4 points in cross class skills. Is making so that mages have to do the same tiny effort to open chests such a blow to them?
But that is not what it would mean at all.
Multiclassing into the rogue class is actually an improvement for melee classes (they can allocate skillpoints that would have been otherwise wasted anyway, their AC gets a considerable bump and they get evasion), but it's a nerf to mages as they are sacrificing their CL only to get a bunch of abilities that are borderline useless to them.


This is also one of the reasons why Rogue has never been a viable standalone class. It's impossible to improve it without improving all the other melee builds even more. The only way to change that would be addressing the way skilldumping works and doing that would turn the entire build balance ecosystem as we know it upside down in a way that would make the lore/umd update seem like a minor maintenance tweak.


Furthermore, switching gear in the middle of a dungeon is
:arrow: Terribly OOC (hold on a sec, need to change my shoes so that I could tinker with this lock better...)
:arrow: Not a viable method for any spellcaster character as they'd lose pretty much all their spells if they did that

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Biolab00 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:01 am

I'm not sure when things get so off-topic here.

Almost every class have the capability to run across the epic dungeon, to head straight for the bosses, not just wizard/mages, if they choose to. A rogue can easily stealth the whole way through, or even invisibility and haste, which can be bought in masses, can achieve this result. Then again, I strongly discourage anyone doing this, after all, this is extremely bad play here.

I'm not even sure if you actually meant to change Knock and Disable traps mechanic here? This topic is about Pixie familiar. Then again, both spells have almost close to infinite uses if you just willing to be less cheapskate and buy the necessary wands/potions which is very common throughout Arelith ( Yes, please don't be lazy but search through the whole Arelith settlement, take it as a sightseeing, you will definitely found certain shops that sell these ) , including surface / underdark [ Probably not Skaljard because it's too small ].

If Knock spell get changed to able to open locked door, how do you want to account for the quarter's door? This, even if i am a complete zero knowledge in programming, feels like bugs are bound to happen from tweaking here and there. I feel pity for our programmer if this even gets approved since it's probably another massive round of work that feels so insignificant. Same sentiment for disable traps.

Anyway, Pixie is simply just another utility for disable trap / open lock door. The so-called second epic character is pure nonsense since familiars generally don't fight well at all. What's the deal with having a familiar with disable trap / open lock mechanism? This is based of the original NWN mechanic design. There is never a true balance, this doesn't even upset any balancing. I don't see how this case even stops other classes from soloing Epics and getting the Runic stuff.

Familiar is a mage's own unique conjured/contracted pet and it's because it's this that they have it. This is their own unique thing based on their lore profession.

Hence, please don't go too off-topic here.

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:02 am

Biolab00 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:01 am

If Knock spell get changed to able to open locked door, how do you want to account for the quarter's door? This, even if i am a complete zero knowledge in programming, feels like bugs are bound to happen from tweaking here and there. I feel pity for our programmer if this even gets approved since it's probably another massive round of work that feels so insignificant. Same sentiment for disable traps.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's already impossible to interact with locked quarter doors (locks or traps) except through conversational dialogue - they are all marked plot and can't be opened without the key unless you "talk" to the door.

The reasoning behind changing the spells is that pixie becomes less the "necessary" choice, and also, a pixie can open way more than just one lock/disable more than one trap per summon as long as you keep it in the back. It also gets improved invisibility to help it avoid dying accidentally. I use it with my true flame, because I don't need a tank, I just need a shelgarn's to gather everything into one spot. (This change would negatively affect my true flame, assuming open lock was then removed from familiars, but I'm still okay with it.)

This way, you still have the option of going pixie or anything else without depriving yourself of an ability you currently have- that ability would just cost more than "summon familiar."
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Drowboy » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:07 am

I think Amia? Had an alternative knock version where it would spawn thieves tools. That would be cool as some kind of. Trickster stream or something.
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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Biolab00 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:16 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:02 am
Biolab00 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:01 am

If Knock spell get changed to able to open locked door, how do you want to account for the quarter's door? This, even if i am a complete zero knowledge in programming, feels like bugs are bound to happen from tweaking here and there. I feel pity for our programmer if this even gets approved since it's probably another massive round of work that feels so insignificant. Same sentiment for disable traps.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's already impossible to interact with locked quarter doors (locks or traps) except through conversational dialogue - they are all marked plot and can't be opened without the key unless you "talk" to the door.

The reasoning behind changing the spells is that pixie becomes less the "necessary" choice, and also, a pixie can open way more than just one lock/disable more than one trap per summon as long as you keep it in the back. It also gets improved invisibility to help it avoid dying accidentally. I use it with my true flame, because I don't need a tank, I just need a shelgarn's to gather everything into one spot. (This change would negatively affect my true flame, assuming open lock was then removed from familiars, but I'm still okay with it.)

This way, you still have the option of going pixie or anything else without depriving yourself of an ability you currently have- that ability would just cost more than "summon familiar."
What you did mention do make sense. Yet, it's only human nature to choose what's the most useful. If every useful thing regardless of what, just because it's almost 80% being picked, has to be changed someway / somehow, i will really feel that it's weird. Changes are only made when it's imbalance or simply OP, i really, for the life of me, don't see what's imbalanced or OP except "convenient".

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Irongron » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:52 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:17 pm
Irongron wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:29 am
While I would love to see a familiar overhaul, it is a lot of work. There is a long outstanding request, in the meantime, for the imp to be adjusted to match the pixie, just as stated above. I won't pretend it is an ideal approach, but definitely an improvement.
While we've got you here, can I ask, from a server design perspective, if open lock/disable trap aren't in the books to be removed from familiars, what the principle is behind knock and find traps having such limited functionality? Using a spell slot per rest per lock or trap seems slightly more cost appropriate than summoning a familiar and having it hang back and be a non-combatant, unless I'm missing something.
No, you're not missing anything; in light of those familiars such spells are mostly useless, even without them they would be; mages have skill points to spare, and enough int to require very little investment in either skill. I'd rather invest a point than use a spell slot for every single locked door.

As for what is or isnt on the cards for familiars; there is no master plan currently, last time it was attempted on Arelith the resulting content was extremely unbalanced. Putting rogue skills on something other than imp I would see as a stop gap.

I can at least give my own private thoughts on familiars, though there is no guarantee at all they would be picked up by a developer tackling the thorny issue of a familiar overhaul.

First with skills - one way or another most characters find a way to deal with locks and traps. I'm not against familiars being able to do this, if they are extremely fragile aalongside it. Watching a pixie buzz around removing all the traps is satisfying experience, and more than a little convenient (if one can protect it)

The next thing is the issue of new familiar skins. This would be lovely, but I would want it to an extension of the default system, not a replacement. There is a school of thought that goes that all familiars should have identical abilities but different optional skins, and I REALLY dislike that design philosophy (same thing routinely got suggested with weapons.) Variety and diversity are one of the main draws on making a character or concept, as with it comes a new play style.

Finally the question of 'do mages really need this too?!' I agree, they don't. One of my favourite aspects of Rolemaster RPG, is that any character could have a familiar, in return for some investment (in the case of that rpg one would have to develop a 'spell llst' skill in an appropriate school). I'd be open for something similar here, whereby Summon Familiar could also be opened up by some other means, such as a gift, reward, item, or even, potentially a new 'Familiar Mastery' arcane skill, whereby invested ranks determined the level of the familiar; a class skill for arcane classes, a cross class skill for everyone else.

But as I said above, they are just my own thoughts on the issue; whichever developer ends up working on this will need my approval, but will not be obliged to follow my instructions.

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Definately Not A Mimic » Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:31 pm

I'm sure this isn't something possible but... it would be very neat if you could select the skills your familiar knows. Each has a specific thing about it, like the baby dragon a large bonus to spot but not true sight or the pixie with search. Then a very limited list of mostly rp skills and a couple of good mechanical skills per creature. Things with hands/fingers maybe getting the rogue skills for example.

Just.. something that came to mind but probably not able to be coded.

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Might-N-Magic » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:43 pm

Irongron wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:29 am
While I would love to see a familiar overhaul, it is a lot of work. There is a long outstanding request, in the meantime, for the imp to be adjusted to match the pixie, just as stated above. I won't pretend it is an ideal approach, but definitely an improvement.
Man, wizards don't need more crap. They're the last thing on the server to ever need more things. If anything, they need less things. Soooo many classes need more love before arcanists EVER need more help soloing the server!

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:50 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:43 pm
Irongron wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:29 am
While I would love to see a familiar overhaul, it is a lot of work. There is a long outstanding request, in the meantime, for the imp to be adjusted to match the pixie, just as stated above. I won't pretend it is an ideal approach, but definitely an improvement.
Man, wizards don't need more crap. They're the last thing on the server to ever need more things. If anything, they need less things. Soooo many classes need more love before arcanists EVER need more help soloing the server!
If you think arcanists are capable of soloing the server right now then I've got a bridge to sell you.
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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Might-N-Magic » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:55 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:50 pm
Might-N-Magic wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:43 pm
Irongron wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:29 am
While I would love to see a familiar overhaul, it is a lot of work. There is a long outstanding request, in the meantime, for the imp to be adjusted to match the pixie, just as stated above. I won't pretend it is an ideal approach, but definitely an improvement.
Man, wizards don't need more crap. They're the last thing on the server to ever need more things. If anything, they need less things. Soooo many classes need more love before arcanists EVER need more help soloing the server!
If you think arcanists are capable of soloing the server right now then I've got a bridge to sell you.
Given the amount of them I've followed in stealth and watched, I await my bridges. Some are better than others.

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Re: Pixie Familiars

Post by Drowboy » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:13 pm

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