Weapon Buffing Spells Change

[AstralUniverse]

- Greater Magic Weapon, Bless Weapon and Keen Edge spells cast from items such as scrolls and wands will not cast at a caster level higher than your character level.

- Greater Magic Weapon scaling weakened slightly, to (CL +3) / 4

- Items with a level requirement of 10 or less now have it set to level 2. This means Iron, Masterly Iron, Steel and Masterly Steel weapons are now usable by any level.

As someone who used GMW scrolls and Bless Weapon scrolls on Keen weapons over pretty much anything except masterly damask and runed greensteel, I just cannot stress how much this change makes sense to me.

One thing I dont understand is whether or not, in a sufficient level, GMW scrolls gives +5 eventually? It's CL on the scroll is still 15, which in the new math is only +4 because (15+3)/4 = 4.5 which is probably rounded down to 4. Should the CL on the scroll change or is it intentionally so scrolls will not give +5 at all anymore?

Your thoughts.

[DangerDolphin]

Due to a bug that I'm tempted to just leave in, the GMW scrolls actually scale up to +5 at level 17, even if the scroll caster level is 15.

While I was testing I mistakenly thought that GMW scrolls had CL 17 like the Bless weapon and Keen Edge scrolls, so I based the scaling in code to make sure the scrolls would still go up to +5 and high level characters with existing scrolls would not be affected by the change.

Also, the duration still scales with caster level, not character level - but this was intentional.

[dallion43]

I can definetly see resons for limiting GMT at lower lvls.

But, GMT scrolls are the only reliable way for many builds and/or certain weapons to get +5. It affects low ab builds and it affects fights vs relevant casters pve/pvp.
Breach exist, yes. I am sure someone more expirienced the I can explain better into details of why it isn't a reason to brush off limiting GMT scroll to +4 change as minimal.

Unless the the intent was to limit acsess to +5 with all the consequences involved, please leave the GMT scroll at max +5.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I am very confused.

There are 2 changes, yes? One to GMW itself, and one to GMW scrolls?

GMW's bonus as a now spell now looks like - (Caster Level +3)/4. So a 17th level spellsword is CASTING a +5 GMW.

And now GMW as a scroll only scales to your character level. Functionally make it similar to as if the scroll-user was casting a GMW of their equivalent caster level?

Right?

I understand the 2nd change is a way of preventing low-level fighters from getting access to +5 weapons (albeit temporary ones), in turn making much of iron/steel obsolete.

What I don't really understand is the ... 1st change? This is just the delaying the progression of GMW? Is this to incentivize the use of iron and steel?

Because if its all about iron/steel, we need to have a discussion about how quickly you get out of low levels due to the writ system. You're amassing gold and experience at such a rate that once you step off the boat and blink - iron weapons are no longer of use to you. Arguably Steel. There seems little point of investing in these since Damask weapons are at level 13.

[DangerDolphin]

Whether casting from a scroll, wand, or as a spell, GMW will scale to your character level and give scaling enhancement, which hits +5 at level 17.

The change was largely because people were running around with +5 keen weapons as low as level 3-5 and the content is not designed for this. This gave a huge advantage to veteran players that knew the 'trick' of just making a keen sword in the basin and then using it with scrolls until high levels, over newbies who assumed they needed to buy a better sword to do more damage. In the process, it made blacksmiths obsolete.

I don't think we've fully solved this yet because smithing still needs some work, but we have narrowed the gap a little and removed the most ridiculous cases.

[Ork]

A good change to blacksmithing would be providing templates of a metal type: iron template, steel template, etc. and allow the buyer to choose the weapon shape. Add in a magic weapon scroll and alchemist fire to the recipe to represent the transformation to make it mesh, or something. It would increase blacksmithing as a trade and make it easier for consumers to find their specific weapon of choice.

[dallion43]

Thank you for the prompt and clear response.
Communication between the developers and the outside word is, to some extent, part of my RL job, so I am in awe _/＼●_.

[AstralUniverse]

Due to a bug that I'm tempted to just leave in, the GMW scrolls actually scale up to +5 at level 17, even if the scroll caster level is 15.

While I was testing I mistakenly thought that GMW scrolls had CL 17 like the Bless weapon and Keen Edge scrolls, so I based the scaling in code to make sure the scrolls would still go up to +5 and high level characters with existing scrolls would not be affected by the change.

Also, the duration still scales with caster level, not character level - but this was intentional.

Thanks a lot for the clarification and for your work. It is definitely a step in the right direction.

[Griefmaker]

A good change to blacksmithing would be providing templates of a metal type: iron template, steel template, etc. and allow the buyer to choose the weapon shape. Add in a magic weapon scroll and alchemist fire to the recipe to represent the transformation to make it mesh, or something. It would increase blacksmithing as a trade and make it easier for consumers to find their specific weapon of choice.

This is an amazing idea and one which I think would make blacksmith shops FAR more desirable for players, both buyers and sellers.

As one who has had several shops over the years involving weapons, I know that there are some weapons (such as rapiers and scimitars) which have a large demand for, while others (like long swords or short swords) a more modest demand, and others (flails, maces, etc.) have almost no demand...except for the rare occasion when someone makes a character with a unique weapon choice. But still, with only 20 slots in a shop, there ends up only being a few types of weapons you can make and sell...especially when you account for different material types.

But with something like this, you could simply make the template, stock it, and buyers could then purchase it and have whatever type of weapon they want, be it a rapier or longsword or dagger or katana or whatever.

I would almost think that this flexibility should come with a slightly greater cost in materials as well as the suggestion for magic weapon scrolls and alchemist fire. It is a QoL thing to have the template, but that is valuable enough to make the cost of the extra ingot of steel or whatever worthwhile.

[three wolf moon]

It would have been better to simply remove recipes that are not used. Smithing is already the most useful and most profitable crafting profession because it makes all the endgame weapons and armor, as well as allowing you to repair or create repair kits for those things. It's also needed to make ingots, which almost every other crafting discipline depends on. If blacksmith was so useless, there wouldn't be as many smiths as there are--but the reality is that you're practically tripping over smiths while groping around to find tailors, art crafters, and carpenters, who have recipes which are not as commonly useful (this is not to say that they have nothing useful, just that their usefulness is more niche than armor/a sword) and are more difficult to produce in most cases.

Reliance upon smiths did not need to be increased at the cost of making the leveling experience worse, they were already the most useful crafters and will never be replaced by a scroll.

Also, you can't put GMW on a weapon that has been keened by a basin or a spell. That was removed ages ago. The only way to get keen and +5 now is with bless, holy sword, or blade thirst cast by a character with high paladin or ranger content.

[Hunter548]

The change was largely because people were running around with +5 keen weapons as low as level 3-5 and the content is not designed for this. This gave a huge advantage to veteran players that knew the 'trick' of just making a keen sword in the basin and then using it with scrolls until high levels, over newbies who assumed they needed to buy a better sword to do more damage. In the process, it made blacksmiths obsolete.

Hasn't this been impossible for a couple of years, now? I distinctly remember this being supposedly fixed around the time spellsword was starting to get adjusted towards the modern incarnation (after the first round of buffs made it super strong).

I don't think we've fully solved this yet because smithing still needs some work, but we have narrowed the gap a little and removed the most ridiculous cases.

Hopefully this doesn't mean it's going to look like carpentry or the new art crafting recipes?

[Ork]

The change is clearly tied to the receivers character level in a not very graceful manner. I was leveling earlier when a L12 bard provided GMW to my weapon and I recieved +1 enchantment instead of +3. I was L5.

Is that intended behavior?

[DangerDolphin]

The change is clearly tied to the receivers character level in a not very graceful manner. I was leveling earlier when a L12 bard provided GMW to my weapon and I recieved +1 enchantment instead of +3. I was L5.

Is that intended behavior?

Yes but it should have been +2 for a level 5 character. Please verify.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

It would have been better to simply remove recipes that are not used. Smithing is already the most useful and most profitable crafting profession because it makes all the endgame weapons and armor, as well as allowing you to repair or create repair kits for those things. It's also needed to make ingots, which almost every other crafting discipline depends on. If blacksmith was so useless, there wouldn't be as many smiths as there are--but the reality is that you're practically tripping over smiths while groping around to find tailors, art crafters, and carpenters, who have recipes which are not as commonly useful (this is not to say that they have nothing useful, just that their usefulness is more niche than armor/a sword) and are more difficult to produce in most cases.

Reliance upon smiths did not need to be increased at the cost of making the leveling experience worse, they were already the most useful crafters and will never be replaced by a scroll.

Also, you can't put GMW on a weapon that has been keened by a basin or a spell. That was removed ages ago. The only way to get keen and +5 now is with bless, holy sword, or blade thirst cast by a character with high paladin or ranger content.

I think that if a survey was taken, you would find there are a lot more tailors then smiths in general. Smiths have the bracers, damask weapons, and a few armors that are useful to make. Tailors make as much end game gear, plus cloaks that people usually buy two or three of, and a lot more niche stuff that isn't hampered by class/race restrictions. They also make kits which are likely way more valuable then smithing kits since everyone has cloth stuff to repair, whereas maybe 25% at most wear metal stuff beyond the bracers? That is probably even too high in a world where the best fighters are actually wizards.

Here's the thing about GMW scrolls, and the same case could be made for keen scrolls that gave +3 and keen to a weapon...For ten thousand gold you were able to buy 20 of them and if you timed it right you would be level 18 or so with those twenty scrolls, all the while having an ab that was a few points higher then where it should be along the way making leveling a joke. This wasn't always true, since pre lorescrolls most wm builds didn't take umd until epics and by then you wanted to have a damask weapon for that damage stack. But pre epics, +5 ab and +5 damage plus a temp essence was way better then anything else for those levels, and it was as simple as being level five for 8 ranks in lore, +2 lore for int, and buying two lore rings to have access to until you decided you wanted that damask damage more then the +2 ab.

So, while admittedly this change doesn't fix every issue with both smithing and leveling being a joke to anyone who knows the basic mechanics of the game, it does at least make the recipes for the lower end stuff about as useful as it was pre lore change. A step in the right direction.

Also, kudos to whoever had the foresight to make it count on the character level on who its being applied to, since that would have been a clear advantage for people with ooc friends that aren't afraid to use them for a slight mechanical advantage.

[Wuthering]

I think there are an abundance of smiths if only because heavy armor and weapon users want to repair their own gear. There are a lot of us who only craft when we have to, after all. I've met a lot of smiths who'd probably rather be fighting than crafting and don't advertise or sell things.

Back on topic, kind of..

I'd consider this an unpleasant side effect of the lore change. Now anyone with 15 lore can read a GMW scroll. I don't think it was a problem when the scrolls were reserved for UMD characters and casters.

[Ork]

Yes but it should have been +2 for a level 5 character. Please verify.

It is intended behavior when a higher level casts GMW that the recipient gets the CL based on the recipient's personal level? If that's the case, I'd rather just hand my weapon to the higher level caster, have them cast GMW, and hand it back.

This gave a huge advantage to veteran players that knew the 'trick'.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Yes but it should have been +2 for a level 5 character. Please verify.

It is intended behavior when a higher level casts GMW that the recipient gets the CL based on the recipient's personal level? If that's the case, I'd rather just hand my weapon to the higher level caster, have them cast GMW, and hand it back.

This gave a huge advantage to veteran players that knew the 'trick'.

This was actually the normative behavior on other servers I've played on before most dungeon runs - every dual wielder in the party would hand over their weapons, and if you were a cleric people took turns passing around their shield and armor, too. Arelith has spoiled us with its pretty frills.

While I personally understand not wanting a higher level player to hand a lower level player a stack of +5 scrolls, it seems to me that if someone actually seeks out a high level spell caster in person to buff their gear for them that the higher level benefits should remain; not only can it be seen as a carrot for interacting (rather than just buying scrolls of the same strength and not needing to interact), but it can facilitate quid-pro-quo relationships IC.

[ReverentBlade]

Whether casting from a scroll, wand, or as a spell, GMW will scale to your character level and give scaling enhancement, which hits +5 at level 17.

The change was largely because people were running around with +5 keen weapons as low as level 3-5 and the content is not designed for this. This gave a huge advantage to veteran players that knew the 'trick' of just making a keen sword in the basin and then using it with scrolls until high levels, over newbies who assumed they needed to buy a better sword to do more damage. In the process, it made blacksmiths obsolete.

I don't think we've fully solved this yet because smithing still needs some work, but we have narrowed the gap a little and removed the most ridiculous cases.

You can't GMW a weapon with any properties at all, including keen.

[DangerDolphin]

The issue of transferring an enchanted weapon will be fixed next time updates roll out. Ork makes a good point that we shouldn't leave in something that veteran players know to exploit.

[chris a gogo]

I wasn't bothered about this change until now.

So if my level 30 wizard casts GMW on a lower levels sword so they can pierce DR of a mob it won't work as the bonus they get is dependant on there own caster level.

I had read the update as it being from scrolls which would be fine but limiting how a caster can effect the fighters in a group due to relative level is just ...bad.

[DangerDolphin]

Arelith has always had level requirements on powerful items to stop them being used by low level characters. I'm not sure why you think spells should be able to bypass this restriction.

[Drowboy]

I mean, it hasn't always. I really don't think an artificial change to 'force' certain weapon tier use is the answer, either, especially not without an included examination of why people don't bother with the bronze to m-steel pipeline.

[chris a gogo]

Because this update isn't as advertised it's says from scrolls not from casters.

Also this isn't gear it's a boon of limited duration.

[DangerDolphin]

As I said above, the smithing items are currently too difficult for a lower level character to make and we still need to look at that.

This isn't primarily a change to force the usage of crafted weapons - because even once the smithing changes are in, they're not going to be much more powerful than they are now.

This change was primarily because low level content is not balanced for +5 weapons and GMW trivialized it.

You will still be able to benefit from being buffed by a high level mages, but not to the extreme, and not from a scroll in your pocket.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Arelith has so many opaque mechanics, I'm all for leveling the playing field between new and old players.

I am glad this is the beginning of looking at the new gear paradigm we find ourselves in. I would think it would be very very fruitful to get a survey of the playerbase's Character Level.

I have a hypothesis that a lot of the server is clustered in the high-teens and epics - unlike older eras of Arelith, where level distribution was probably spread out more.

There's a lot that has to be said about the adamantine vs. mithril debate; the rune endgame; the use of iron/steel, etc. I think we have less character level diversity than we have before, but I think much of Arelith's mechanical progression is out of sync with this new experience track.

edit: we're also seeing more "lateral" mechanics, like the new Ranger map-reveal and nature-speed mechanics. I think this is excellent. I think this also points to how we need more mechanical diversity on the horizontal plane, rather than vertical power. But that seems like a whole kettle of fish.