Shadow Spiders

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Farlius
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Shadow Spiders

Post by Farlius » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:28 am

Shadow Spider and Shadow Spider (Greater) currently fire a bolt attack web with no save.
They then proceed to close the gap and use crippling strike due to being flat foot in a no save bolt attack.
This is compounded by some of the enemies in the shadow plane having breach and repeatedly removing Freedom of Movement.

As it stands I believe the bolt needs to have a save, be removed or the enemies no longer having crippling strike, as all three together make them a nuisance as every fight has the capacity to end with you being crippled.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Biolab00 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:55 am

Farlius wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:28 am
Shadow Spider and Shadow Spider (Greater) currently fire a bolt attack web with no save.
They then proceed to close the gap and use crippling strike due to being flat foot in a no save bolt attack.
This is compounded by some of the enemies in the shadow plane having breach and repeatedly removing Freedom of Movement.

As it stands I believe the bolt needs to have a save, be removed or the enemies no longer having crippling strike, as all three together make them a nuisance as every fight has the capacity to end with you being crippled.
Uh. that bolt is a touch attack hence, it's not influenced by saving throw but by your AC.
It's working as intended, yep, it is challenging in that place if your dodge + deflection + dex + tumble + Expertise/ IE ( if you turn it on ) AC is not high enough
Otherwise, it's not simply just shadow spider bolt that does this touch attach without saves. Plenty of the monsters around Arelith are the same, it's pretty common, especially in higher tier dungeon.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Morgy » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:56 am

I think it's a challenging mechanic that is welcome.

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Farlius
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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Farlius » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:58 am

Except it's not just in a dungeon, it's literally all over the shadow plane now as a standard mob.
Edit: Also furthermore, the fact it's a standard aspect of Arelith does not make it good design.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Itikar » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:03 am

Also wands of negative energy protection (or scrolls) should be able to take care of the crippling strike part.

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Farlius
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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Farlius » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:04 am

See Breach, plus cost of constantly renewing that and finding wands becomes unreasonable.

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Za-Lord~s Guard
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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Za-Lord~s Guard » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:04 am

I can confirm that not only is it a standard spawn throughout the Shadow Plane, it's a spawn that becomes friendly to drow PCs that approach it and will turn its bolts against other creatures spawning with it.

This means that as a drow character visiting virtually any area these spawn in, you have potentially several of the creatures turning friendly and suddenly making the entire pack of spawns a non-issue.

This is probably a little bit too much of a cookie for drow when balance is considered. If the spiders are going to have this script to go friendly for drow PCs, then they should lose the bolt attacks and the crippling strike.
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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by cowboy » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:05 am

Honestly all of the "no save, touch attack" bolts on the server common to spiders and cave oozes/slimes and anything else should be reevaluated.

They are not really challenging but frustrating and especially when you get a whole mob doing it.

If it was one VERY SPECIFIC variant of a mob doing it that was fairly rare it wouldn't be bad.

But when you have 6 of them doing it over and over and considering the durations are based off I believe the monster CL its a bit bananas.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Biolab00 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:06 am

Farlius wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:58 am
Except it's not just in a dungeon, it's literally all over the shadow plane now as a standard mob.
Edit: Also furthermore, the fact it's a standard aspect of Arelith does not make it good design.
Shadow plane itself, is already considered a mid-tier, towards end high tier place.
Shadow spiders and the way it attacked, fits the theme of the place as well.

Just in case, that people are not aware of how the AC against touch attack works

D20Roll + AB [ Attacker ]
11 ( Base AC ) + Dex Ac + Deflection AC + Dodge AC + Tumble AC + Dodge Feat AC + Expertise / Improved Expertise ( If it's turned on )

Touch attach bypass Epic Dodge as well, even if it's a melee touch attack.

Edit : Even with all these creature that does touch attack, it doesn't stop me from soloing pretty much all content. It's considered to be challenging for me, rather than annoying since, it takes the right tactic, to engage such enemy. Though, i can't actually explain how it works since IG depends on the situation.

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Farlius
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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Farlius » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:07 am

I should add they also instantly turn invisible, adding a further step to the process with another relatively short duration spell on a wand to see them, thus making you flat foot as they shoot the bolt at you.

"A touch attack denies the defender their armor and shield AC (base and bonus), as well as their natural armor bonus to AC. All other armor class modifiers, such as the size modifier, dexterity modifier, and deflection/dodge bonus apply (or don't apply, e.g. if flat-footed) normally. Consequentially, touch attacks sometimes have a significantly better chance of hitting than regular attacks. "

Edit: The act of using the wand also drops imp expertise.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Biolab00 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:30 am

Farlius wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:07 am
I should add they also instantly turn invisible, adding a further step to the process with another relatively short duration spell on a wand to see them, thus making you flat foot as they shoot the bolt at you.

"A touch attack denies the defender their armor and shield AC (base and bonus), as well as their natural armor bonus to AC. All other armor class modifiers, such as the size modifier, dexterity modifier, and deflection/dodge bonus apply (or don't apply, e.g. if flat-footed) normally. Consequentially, touch attacks sometimes have a significantly better chance of hitting than regular attacks. "

Edit: The act of using the wand also drops imp expertise.
I assume that you are probably using a Strength-based character and this is probably, the only class that might struggle against this kind of setting. Though, i've used a strength-based character before and encounter no issue in killing them.

If you're a Dex based character with uncanny dodge, there's plenty of ways to kill them easily without breaking a sweat. While you've mention some situation but i am not able to advise you how to do it, unless you happen to find me ICly, i will be willing to advise you on certain method to approach enemies.

Most of the times, i have seen player just do the usual "Because i'm strong enough, i will just charge ahead and bash up, even if i am facing 20 enemies at once" logic. And any hindrance against this logic is a bad gaming because it doesn't make me feel absolutely powerful. And that is very very bad way of fighting, even when I ( I do think that my current character is pretty powerful ) don't fight that way, unless i am facing small fries.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Farlius » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:39 am

I'm done with this back and forth.
You are choosing to ignore the whole point of them forcing flat foot in multiple ways, and to counter them directly requires 3 wands/sources of magic on individuals that aren't dex based.
Which for context, is going to be a good portion of the server, and just because you, who are currently playing a monk, decides that this is fine, does not make it so.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Biolab00 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:57 am

Farlius wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:39 am
I'm done with this back and forth.
You are choosing to ignore the whole point of them forcing flat foot in multiple ways, and to counter them directly requires 3 wands/sources of magic on individuals that aren't dex based.
Which for context, is going to be a good portion of the server, and just because you, who are currently playing a monk, decides that this is fine, does not make it so.
I am not sure on what class you are playing. And i don't really want to make certain IC information too wide-spread but willing to share in game, if you find me. I don't usually play at this hour but likely another 6 hours later from now.

If you're also another Dexxer, like rogue, shadowdancer or even spellsword with dip in rogue etc, i can always advise you certain method of battling.
If you're a strength based character, there's also other way of fighting since strength based ( if you're two-hander ) have the best dps around.

Then again, what you mention about exp/imp exp being turned off when using wand etc is working as intended since it's a form of balancing against other issues.
Being forced to flat foot in multiple ways is the challenge against this type of monsters which i believed, not just myself, but other players ICly will be willing to advise you on how to take care of such situation.
Although, if you're already struggling and complaining against this type of challenge, it's likely that you will definitely need a party to clear any sort of quasi-epic / epic dungeon. A good build do make challenges easier but the right method of fighting, more so.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Anomandaris » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:01 am

Farlius wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:39 am
I'm done with this back and forth.
You are choosing to ignore the whole point of them forcing flat foot in multiple ways, and to counter them directly requires 3 wands/sources of magic on individuals that aren't dex based.
Which for context, is going to be a good portion of the server, and just because you, who are currently playing a monk, decides that this is fine, does not make it so.
I often play dex based PC's so I can't relate to ~this~ problem, but it does sound annoying. And I agree that the means to counter it as stated is both tedious and expensive (though there is another way). Out of curiosity, as a general sentiment, do you believe there are places that should be nearly impassable alone for a given PC, dependent on the nature of the enemies and respective build?

I agree with what you're saying in principle. It's an awfully difficult combo certainly for a large range of PCs. However, I can relate to finding similarly brutal combinations (let's say IGMS spam) that for an Abjurer are no problem, for my little dex rogue are absolute punishment.

So, I invite you to consider that while you are correct, does it matter? Maybe this area is just "one of those areas" that you will not be able to pass through easily until you are respectively far over the CR of the area. Is that right or wrong? I don't personally know, but it's kind of the way it works for most builds (unless you're a druid or some other PVE crushing monster).

This would be unfortunate, especially if RP brings you there often, but it could also be a unique challenge for your character to adapt around. Invisibility. Ambush tactics to kill the particular monster that makes it difficult. Or bring a friend that can mitigate it somehow... I'm not unsympathetic, just offering the notion that finding this much trouble with a specific "type" of opponent, might be not only ok, but by design/part of the experience?

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:24 am

Greater Shadow Spiders are the reason I don't use the portal directly outside Shadow Wharftown. My issue with them boils down to their positioning. If they were in a specific dungeon or other remote area, they'd be fine, because you could go to that place prepared to face them, either with buffs or a party.

Having them as random spawns on the road outside Shadow Wharftown, however, means that traveling to and from shadow plane writs can be more dangerous than the writs themselves, depending on build.
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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by dallion43 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:09 am

Summon scroll+player tool+guard/un-guard hotkeys. (preferably book of air*x in inventory, ideally air string ele scroll summon, ele/undead sneak immun).
With some proper timing this could make things a bit cheaper unless mobs have aoe.

I am not familiar enough with the mob/area itself so take it with a pile of salt, but pve web bolt in general usually resolved by the above to some extent. 50% cloaks*many help as well.

P.C
Personally I am always all in for harder areas/smarter and harder mobs/whatever that force people to join in groups/etc.
If it would be up to me even going to Cordor Sewers rats would require a minimum of 3 PCs that knew what they are doing.

I doubt this is the response you were looking for, but since it might help others please be lenient :p.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Biolab00 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:46 am

Then again, Shadow plane isn't exactly the place where a pre-level 20 should solo in.
Somehow, the writ level from 14 - 25 seems rather wrong.
I would suggest it to be between 19 - 26 though ( so that lv30 char can help out on the writ as well because certain place is just crazy and near impossible for even a lv30 char to solo ).
Rather off-topic but just a suggestion which i think, was already brought up, in some other topic that i've read few weeks ago.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Nekonecro » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:10 pm

Hey so I'm playing with Farlius when he's in the Shadow Plane.
Seems like your arguments are coming from the notion that he's dying to these mobs, he's not.
He's not soloing and often goes with 2 or more people.

It's not that the mob itself is too difficult it's that the combination of bolt attack web, crip strike and the high number of breaches/dispelling that makes it annoying.

-Very, very, very- annoying.

In game design there's the notion of risk-reward, it's a balancing act to maintain.

As it stands right now the cost of having to constantly:
1. Using wands, apply negative energy protection and freedom of movement to counter spider play.
2. Other mobs remove wand wardings during combat.
3. Spider mobs apply web through a bolt attack and crip strike as they spawn in multiple numbers.
4. Finish the fight, use lesser restoration to clear out the damaged strength and return to step 1.

Not so bad? Sure
Now imagine repeating it over a month, also consider having to replace wands/scrolls and so on.
Also consider that said spider mobs don't drop coin or loot.

The risk (using up resources) outweighs the reward (loot, gold, exp) and generally makes for an annoying experience.
Difficulty doesn't always equate to being annoying.

TLDR: The mob makes Shadow plane fighting annoying, not difficult.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Ninjimmy » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:28 pm

Maybe I'm having a different mileage but as a non-wand using Dex character, I never had any problems with the spiders - nor did they spawn in in great enough numbers for it to be a major issue for me even with just one other person with me since they usually went down long before we got to the crippling strike stage. I've not noticed anything landing a successful breach either, what casts that constantly?

In terms of risk/reward the XP gain is alright and like I said, for my particular character, it was actually pretty easy, and I'm not very well optimised as a straight swashbuckler.
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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:44 pm

Nekonecro wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:10 pm
Hey so I'm playing with Farlius when he's in the Shadow Plane.
Seems like your arguments are coming from the notion that he's dying to these mobs, he's not.
He's not soloing and often goes with 2 or more people.

It's not that the mob itself is too difficult it's that the combination of bolt attack web, crip strike and the high number of breaches/dispelling that makes it annoying.

-Very, very, very- annoying.

In game design there's the notion of risk-reward, it's a balancing act to maintain.

As it stands right now the cost of having to constantly:
1. Using wands, apply negative energy protection and freedom of movement to counter spider play.
2. Other mobs remove wand wardings during combat.
3. Spider mobs apply web through a bolt attack and crip strike as they spawn in multiple numbers.
4. Finish the fight, use lesser restoration to clear out the damaged strength and return to step 1.

Not so bad? Sure
Now imagine repeating it over a month, also consider having to replace wands/scrolls and so on.
Also consider that said spider mobs don't drop coin or loot.

The risk (using up resources) outweighs the reward (loot, gold, exp) and generally makes for an annoying experience.
Difficulty doesn't always equate to being annoying.

TLDR: The mob makes Shadow plane fighting annoying, not difficult.
I echo all of this. I roamed the Shadow Plane solo, and the Library is the biggest offender for me. Some monsters have damage shields + breach and then you have these spiders. The whole experience is a slog and the reward at the end it just terrible, I am not sure I broke gold positive including the writ reward.

On the other hand, the Crypts also have these spiders, but no monsters that spam breach, and the reward is far better, even if it may take slightly longer to run through.

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Re: Shadow Spiders

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:09 pm

Biolab00 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:57 am

Although, if you're already struggling and complaining against this type of challenge, it's likely that you will definitely need a party to clear any sort of quasi-epic / epic dungeon. A good build do make challenges easier but the right method of fighting, more so.
If this is the case, then the spiders should be made more rewarding. Sub 15 EXP per head at level 23 is not level-appropriate (My guess is their CR is somewhere around 15, just from personal experience).
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