HIPS Nerf

[Anomandaris]

Hide in Plain Sight

Cooldown increased from 12 seconds to 30 seconds.
------------------

HIPS has always been a powerful ability. It was nerfed originally by requiring a 5 lvl dip into SD and increasing the CD to 12 seconds. It remained powerful this way but required skill to use effectively and was definitely counterable (TS, TS+Div feats, Spot/Listen, Knockdown, Stuns etc). Instead of nerfing this to say 18 seconds (which I could see an argument for) it's been gutted making it almost useless in PVE & PVP. By doing so it has completely destroyed entire character concepts and lots of builds. Are you going to offer relevels?

Fights are over pretty quickly (unless you're two monks going at it lol). 95% of PvP I'd say is over in less than 30 seconds to 1 min max. This ability now has very little use at all. On top of this, who is timing at 12 seconds perfectly (now 30)? You get the notification, have to break combat and activate it. I'm guessing most are getting 13-15 second activation (a lot can happen to your PC in that time) unless you're counting perfect seconds in your head and trying to time it perfectly with the msg. By the way, if you do this too early, you're hosed and have to exit stealth and re-enter stealth because you didn't actually HIPS.

Shadowmage:
Most have no AC (no Epic Mage Armor) and rely heavily on stealth to survive. Mine has about 28 ac and 390 hp fully buffed. The philosophy was hide/ms could be your "AC," it was just risky and if someone had the spot/listen or TS, high AB & KD or good aim with AOE abilities, you were toast. With Archers shooting near 200 dmg crits (and a ton of other classes) sporting AB from high 40's to 50's, I have literally no way to survive. I was a 1-2 round kill for most decent builds, but before I had the chance to maybe pop out, do something and slip away.

The class is now pretty much worthless compared to a normal mage. You can't cast evo and have +2 DC's on a few schools (which is nice) but DC caster is super easy to counter and very tough to do much with in a save heavy meta. The new spells helped, but the class relies HEAVILY on this stealth component to make it even remotely viable. We can all just play wild mages or Sorcadins/Scorcguards now I guess.

Shadowdancer/Rogue Combos:
Lower AC, lower AB, high dmg. Utility, burst dmg builds that rely on ambush tactics to both survive and kill. Flat footed is required to hit in a high AC meta. With 43-44 AB, you're struggling to hit a lot of PCs. Flat footed was the only hope or a lucky KD with TS pot. There's almost no incentive to play SD now. Why not just take more fighter lvls or go WM so you can actually stand a chance of hitting something and get more hp. Keep rogue & stealth if you want and corner hide (when possible) because that's what is going to be required as a SD now. Mind as well just play Cleric/Wm or Monk SS. These classes can't stand toe to toe with a normal melee build. They also often have complete and utter trash saves making them super easy to breach & stun/kill with DC spells. There is counter play through active ability, pots, scrolls, wands etc, but a lot of that relied on breaking LoS to actually do something and not just get breached right away then killed.


I'm pretty salty about this. Sure, HIPS is scary and very powerful. So is a WM. So is a healer path. So is a Monk/SS. So is... Are we just going to nerf everything that makes a play-style unique until its so watered down we're dealing equal dmg and using the same abilities? Should we all run around with wiffle bats and foam arrows?

A reasonable approach would be to adjust it to 18 seconds and test it out, see how it changes things. Instead you went from 12 seconds to 30, almost a 3x increase. I don't understand how you could think this wouldn't make the skill utter trash and invalidate a slough of character concepts (or even a whole class in SM case). Don't tell me "just corner hide" because a lot of time that's not an option.

Everything has counterplay, and yah, it requires skill (like Gsanc for example). Call me "Git Gud" or whatever the term is, but there's tons of resources to learn how to handle this stuff IC & OOC. And frankly, if you want to be less involved in conflict and PvP there are plenty of ways to do that and enjoy the server, rp etc. It seems to me that culturally we've trended towards an MMO feel and are optimizing for lowest common denominator. I don't mean that in a rude way, I mean we're trying to make it easier to play here and take the edge off a lot of really swingy/dangerous mechanics. I support new players on different platforms and our burgeoning community. But this is also an 18 yr old rpg, that a majority of the ppl who play, nerd out on hard enough to know to some degree how to counter everything (high DCs, KD, HIPS, Summons) so on and so on.

I don't mean to be hyperbolic or negative, just trying to be honest. This is super excessive, breaks my character completely and makes very little sense from a balance perspective. I'm wondering who's idea this was and how it went so far. I really hope you offer ppl relevels/rebuilds or roll it to something actually reasonable like 18 seconds. That would put it right on the edge of being actually usable in a real situation. Mind you this was all from the perspective of PvP, don't even get me started on PvE. I'll get absolutely trashed now unless I dip major levels into SD to make the shadow useful. At this point I mind as well just go a higher AC & AB build.

TLDR: You broke SD and made it useless as well as SM. An 18 second nerf would have been reasonable. This makes no sense. Just get rid of HIPS if you don't like it and give us all re-levels.

Curious to hear what others think. I'm sure some are happy and disagree with me completely *shrug*.
-End Rant

[Itikar]

Any PvE capability for my main alt is now completely destroyed.

I really urge the developers to reconsider this change. Not necessarily to go back to 12 seconds, which admittedly were short, but to something more reasonable like 18.

[Glowing Mushroom]

If HIPS does require a nerf, I definitely agree that it should come in tiers. As you've said, fights typically last for less than 30 seconds to begin with. PvE or PvP. If HIPS is going to remain so heavily nerfed, the affected classes should come with a Relevel, as not to render dozens of builds completely obsolete. Else, I would definitely like to see the CD returned to something more reasonable.

Characters making use of HIPs are already difficult to level. It is a tool that is used tactfully and in specific situations. Nerfing the CD to such extremes will make those specific situations dwindle even further. 30 seconds in combat is an extraordinarily long time, especially when in PvE or PvP alike, it can come down to single digits in seconds time. With 30 seconds between a squishy character's best line of defense, their defense is essentially non-existent.

12-15 seconds would be much more agreeable. I have not personally ever run into HIPS being abused that could warrant such a big nerf, but I'm sure there are reasons for it. Nevertheless, 30 seconds in a game where combat often lasts for half that time seems extreme.

[Chosen Son]

What evo spells are remotely relevant in a meta with no cooldown on heal potions, high saves, a gutted evo combo, and -pray? When evo combo could threaten the kind of damage it used to be able to threaten, it was very viable, but now losing evocation as a spell school is no great sacrifice if you get bonuses to save dc, as well as a free reposition/disengage every 30 seconds. The idea that this has killed shadowmages is absurd. The cooldown could be sixty seconds, and increased save dc, as well as free reposition to complement corner sneaking would leave shadowmage very strong compared to mundane wizards.

[Shadowy Reality]

Heavy Shadowdancer builds don't need Hips to level, they don't even need stealth, they solo almost everything due to the shadow.

Heavy rangers get Hips for free in wilderness areas, they never really needed this, they would still be a totally solid class without that. You don't go 16 ranger got Hips, there are very few builds that stop here, most go for 21 for bane of enemies, and better blade thirst.

SD5 is the only case where I could consider this a real nerf as Hips is the sole reason why they have SD.

Even then this is not as terrible. It is currently incredibly hard to spot stealthers, making Hips extremely strong, you don't need to do it every 12 seconds.

[Anomandaris]

Heavy Shadowdancer builds don't need Hips to level, they don't even need stealth, they solo almost everything due to the shadow.

Heavy rangers get Hips for free in wilderness areas, they never really needed this, they would still be a totally solid class without that. You don't go 16 ranger got Hips, there are very few builds that stop here, most go for 21 for bane of enemies, and better blade thirst.

SD5 is the only case where I could consider this a real nerf as Hips is the sole reason why they have SD.

Even then this is not as terrible. It is currently incredibly hard to spot stealthers, making Hips extremely strong, you don't need to do it every 12 seconds.

Yah but heavy SD is very weak as the Shadow is useless out of PVE. I agree ranger doesn't need HIPS, it's a full BaB class and has buffs etc. In fact, Ranger might be the only class w/ HIPS that makes sense now because it doesn't fundamentally "rely" on the mechanic.

SD is very popularly, if not mostly, run as 5 lvl dip (dips are not vilified so this isn't a bad thing, it's just the way it is).

Spotting stealthers is done through a large range of ways. And when spotted, they are EXTREMELY vulnerable. Now all the coutnerplay of TS scrolls, daily use items to boost listen etc, they will see you, but you won't be able to re-hide in any reasonable time. Without this ability, they will just die as they have poor AC, poor AB and awful saves.

[Itikar]

you don't need to do it every 12 seconds.

This is a strawman argument.

Nobody among the posters in the thread so far really advocated for a return to 12 seconds. We simply stated that 30 seconds is really way too long.

No more no less.

[Anomandaris]

1) High SD lvls can do PVE amazingly well. They still are unpopular as they are not strong at all in PvP and very few want to go so far for flavor to be weaker, especially playing a class which is basically an assassin archtype. 100% agree high SD is super strong in PVE.

2) Rangers are so strong they don't need HIPS. They are looking at this like.. oh yah I forgot I had that ability, ehh.. I didn't even really invest in stealth anyway (unless archer hips based build).

So basically there are two perfectly viable builds that probably don't care much about this nerf. One, the melee ranger, arguably shouldn't have HIPS, the other is a small percent of SD builds that aren't competitive all. And interestingly enough, both of these builds work just fine in with nerf because, they don't really need HIPS to begin with. You could just take it away and your argument would stand. One would be meh (the SD would be very weak in PvP because that Shadow won't do any good) while the ranger would still be very strong.

[Apothys]

I think perhaps 30 seconds may be too long, but what if the timer scaled with Shadow Dancer levels. The more levels you have the better the timer?

However for now lets test it out see how it goes.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

If HIPS does require a nerf, I definitely agree that it should come in tiers. As you've said, fights typically last for less than 30 seconds to begin with. PvE or PvP. If HIPS is going to remain so heavily nerfed, the affected classes should come with a Relevel, as not to render dozens of builds completely obsolete. Else, I would definitely like to see the CD returned to something more reasonable.

Characters making use of HIPs are already difficult to level. It is a tool that is used tactfully and in specific situations. Nerfing the CD to such extremes will make those specific situations dwindle even further. 30 seconds in combat is an extraordinarily long time, especially when in PvE or PvP alike, it can come down to single digits in seconds time. With 30 seconds between a squishy character's best line of defense, their defense is essentially non-existent.

12-15 seconds would be much more agreeable. I have not personally ever run into HIPS being abused that could warrant such a big nerf, but I'm sure there are reasons for it. Nevertheless, 30 seconds in a game where combat often lasts for half that time seems extreme.

So, here's my thing. I agree with you that most fights last 30 seconds or less when it comes to PvP. PvE is a questionable matter and it depends on where you're fighting compared to your level range and how many spawns there are, but this is really outside the main point.

We agree that most fights last less than 30 seconds (and the thread consensus seems to agree with that as well,) but we go in different directions because of it. If a fight lasts less than thirty seconds, then a cooldown timer of 30 seconds doesn't hurt you that badly- you are still getting to break engagement on demand at least once per fight, which if you're finishing in under 30 seconds means you'll be good to go by the time your next fight starts (PvE), and that you probably didn't need HiPS in the first place (or you wouldn't be finishing the mobs in 30 seconds). In PvP, it's still an amazingly powerful tool to have in addition to the ability to corner sneak, your shadow in the case of the shadowdancer, and the ability to cast spells in the case of a shadowmage.

Given that true seeing was nerfed to a single round's duration, forcing it to be a reactive solution rather than a pre-emptive one, this seems like it was inevitable. But I don't think it's really going to make any of these builds non-viable so much as it's going to make HiPS more of a per-fight utility than a two-round staple.

Yeah- it's not as good anymore, but stealth is still in an amazingly strong place right now since by default it leans on Dexterity rather than Strength, and HiPS will still completely alter a fight for you.

I also wouldn't be against the cooldown scaling downward with SD levels... maybe 6 seconds off for every 6 levels in the class, back down to 12 at 18 SD?

[My decency]

I'm mostly curious where people are getting "spot is hard to get high" from.

I'm playing a character with base 0 Wis Mod, missing a second watchman(+5), the ability to wear a murderer's rainment(+5, or +2 without one), 2 points from my last 2 levels, one more point of wis mod, and an elven helmet(another +2)

And I'm sitting at 84 Spot. I'm missing 15(or 12) points. I could be at 99(or 96)...and this is without C/C or Bard Song. There are just as many +5 Spot items as there are +5 Hide/MS items...and one of them gives BOTH.

[Hexgoblin]

Big fan of the nerf, personally.

In a way, I think some of the responses here makes just why it was necessary apparent, since the consensus seems to be that there's no playing a stealth-reliant build successfully without HIPS, which just isn't true. AC and fairly reliable AB are both well within range of the traditional rogue, and the same goes for saves through some vested gearing. If they're not available to your SD, it's because you're playing a build that thus far has gotten by without playing the game by the same rules as everyone else -- which stands out as a problem.

Especially now, with Arelith's strain on skillpoints ever increasing, this adjustment seems apt. To elaborate on that, with at least 25 lore now being near-mandatory for the majority of characters (largely for the purpose of unlocking True Sight scrolls), and with heavy nerfs to True Sight duration and availability pushing people further in the direction of an investment in sensory skills -- which many warrior builds especially just can't afford -- the reality of fighting any decent HIPS user lately for a lot of people is blowing anywhere between 2-10 True Sight scrolls. That's a big ask to combat the repeated press of a button.

From my point of view, the deep SD is still an excellent PvE build. Rangers never needed HIPS, it's just icing on an already very well-rounded cake. And the 5 dip SD builds, such as the 19 rogue/6 fighter/5 SD or various 5 SD dip WM variations are primarily constructed with the idea of easy ganking in mind, which seems a questionable mentality to encourage. Not to mention that the latter variations tend to keep most of the combat kit of their parent class, as opposed to being entirely reliant on the dip. See: the rogue version keeping the vast majority of his damage, his Epic Dodge and his considerable AC, really only significantly sacrificing the lvl.24 grenades. Call me biased, but the 5-dip line of SD builds have always come across to me as a cheap way to get the drop on the average player.

My thoughts thus far. Obviously no gospel, and likely contrasting with the experiences of another, but I felt it apt to share them all the same.

[three wolf moon]

I'm mostly curious where people are getting "spot is hard to get high" from.

I'm playing a character with base 0 Wis Mod, missing a second watchman(+5), the ability to wear a murderer's rainment(+5, or +2 without one), 2 points from my last 2 levels, one more point of wis mod, and an elven helmet(another +2)

And I'm sitting at 84 Spot. I'm missing 15(or 12) points. I could be at 99(or 96)...and this is without C/C or Bard Song. There are just as many +5 Spot items as there are +5 Hide/MS items...and one of them gives BOTH.

It is true that detect items exist. However, very few of them are "best in slot" gear for anyone. Usually, they're useless outside of the bonus. Whereas stealth gear (fine elvens, many of the armors like armor of the wild and such like) usually IS best in slot for the stealther, giving them easy +3-5 for no sacrifice. It's on the spotter/listener to sacrifice gear slots and be less effective in a combat situation, whereas a stealther gets it for free.

[Anomandaris]

I'm mostly curious where people are getting "spot is hard to get high" from.

I'm playing a character with base 0 Wis Mod, missing a second watchman(+5), the ability to wear a murderer's rainment(+5, or +2 without one), 2 points from my last 2 levels, one more point of wis mod, and an elven helmet(another +2)

And I'm sitting at 84 Spot. I'm missing 15(or 12) points. I could be at 99(or 96)...and this is without C/C or Bard Song. There are just as many +5 Spot items as there are +5 Hide/MS items...and one of them gives BOTH.

It is true that detect items exist. However, very few of them are "best in slot" gear for anyone. Usually, they're useless outside of the bonus. Whereas stealth gear (fine elvens, many of the armors like armor of the wild and such like) usually IS best in slot for the stealther, giving them easy +3-5 for no sacrifice. It's on the spotter/listener to sacrifice gear slots and be less effective in a combat situation, whereas a stealther gets it for free.

Spot would also make you a supreme disguise buster which is super valuable. I'd argue it's at least the same level of investment, if not easier to get spot/listen higher than hide/ms, especially with spells and daily use availability (more attainablefor spot/listen than hide/ms). It's easy to boost these skills by 20+ pts immediately for a fair duration. The same is not to be said but with few exceptions for hide/ms. Also a lot of gear is just enchanted for +2 hide/ms with exception of penumbral, rings of hiding & maybe displacer beast cloak (elven boots I'm leaving out because they offer +5 listen). A spotter/listener also can just invest in 1 skill, without needing to gear both to be effective like the stealth.

It made me realize there is a very good analogue in Knockdown. It's a skill that can end a fight if spammed so everyone had discipline. It was required to gear and build around. Then it was nerfed to 12 sec freq cap. In fact I'd argue KD is worse than stealth because the downed PC can't do anything except pray or use the healer path ability. Stealth is the same. It's very easy to counter, you just have to actually build with it in mind. If you don't, guess what, just like KD you're getting punished for it. The thing is, HIPS was already at 12 seconds (realistically 13-15 given timing and the reality of its use) and the PC was more vulnerable for having invested in stealth (lower AB, AC & poor saves).

The answer to this was not nerf HIPS into oblivion, but if you want to counter it, make an investment in Spot/Listen just like folks did with discipline. Folks generally just didn't want to have to do this.
---

On another note I like the the ideas for scaling CD reductions w/ SD lvls, it is a much friendlier approach. It would reward investment into the SD class and still allow a more reasonable 12-18 second CD to be attained. It still wouldn't help the SM.

[Ork]

This needed to happen.

[Gouge Away]

Spot is an always-on passive ability that ruins another character's plans so it I think ought to be less effective than maximized bluff and hide/MS.

If a heavily invested disguiser or sneaker couldn't get away with it much of the time there'd be no point to playing one, or it'd be a gimmick like pickpocket than nobody really uses except when they don't mind getting caught.

I don't mind the HiPS change but I'm biased as my 24 rogue won't be wishing they'd taken SD levels as much.

[three wolf moon]

Spot is an always-on passive ability that ruins another character's plans so it I think ought to be less effective than maximized bluff and hide/MS.

If a heavily invested disguiser or sneaker couldn't get away with it much of the time there'd be no point to playing one, or it'd be a gimmick like pickpocket than nobody really uses except when they don't mind getting caught.

I don't mind the HiPS change but I'm biased as my 24 rogue won't be wishing they'd taken SD levels as much.

Do you think hide/ms don't ruin other character's plans? Stealthers can go into houses behind people, stand around listening to whispers and conversations with impunity, basically.

Even as a player of a stealther (with HiPS, even), I don't understand why stealth is treated as this precious thing.

[Anomandaris]

Spot is an always-on passive ability that ruins another character's plans so it I think ought to be less effective than maximized bluff and hide/MS.

If a heavily invested disguiser or sneaker couldn't get away with it much of the time there'd be no point to playing one, or it'd be a gimmick like pickpocket than nobody really uses except when they don't mind getting caught.

I don't mind the HiPS change but I'm biased as my 24 rogue won't be wishing they'd taken SD levels as much.

Do you think hide/ms don't ruin other character's plans? Stealthers can go into houses behind people, stand around listening to whispers and conversations with impunity, basically.

Even as a player of a stealther (with HiPS, even), I don't understand why stealth is treated as this precious thing.

I haven't seen someone walk into PC housing or faction housing w/out using TS or caltrops in a loooooong time. This is super easy to counter and incredibly risk on the part of the sneak.

[ReverentBlade]

This is an awful change. Absolutely awful. CD increase of over 100%? What are you thinking?

[three wolf moon]

I haven't seen someone walk into PC housing or faction housing w/out using TS or caltrops in a loooooong time. This is super easy to counter and incredibly risk on the part of the sneak.

If you see someone using caltrops to detect stealthers, report it. That is an exploit. Also, not a lot of people use TS after going into their houses, actually, especially after the lore change making scrolls less accessible (and eyes of savras are a loot commodity, meaning there is no reliable supply.)

It's very easy to get away with a lot with a stealther, and you absolutely can do a lot more harm than a spotter can to you. Really, I think you need to just let the change ride out and see how it goes, because it's not as damaging as you believe.

[Anomandaris]

I haven't seen someone walk into PC housing or faction housing w/out using TS or caltrops in a loooooong time. This is super easy to counter and incredibly risk on the part of the sneak.

If you see someone using caltrops to detect stealthers, report it. That is an exploit. Also, not a lot of people use TS after going into their houses, actually, especially after the lore change making scrolls less accessible (and eyes of savras are a loot commodity, meaning there is no reliable supply.)

It's very easy to get away with a lot with a stealther, and you absolutely can do a lot more harm than a spotter can to you. Really, I think you need to just let the change ride out and see how it goes, because it's not as damaging as you believe.

Interesting about caltrops, didn't know that. I'm skeptical. I know these builds backwards and forewards and it relies heavily on flat foot striking to get hits due to low AB. Without expertise the AC is very low, making them easy bait for any physical dmg class. Casters also have their way with with these builds due to low saves. Rogue/Fighter/ SD just went from spooky upper tier to kind of garbage immediately. An 18 sec CD would have made me wince a tiny bit but been manageable and probably a fair bit of balance against a powerful mechanic. A 30 second nerf is just silly.

If people really feel strongly go roll up a lvl 30 PC in PGCC and see how it does against a range of builds without a more reliable way to hide.

Lastly, this stings the SM arguably the worst. SD is one thing. You can still build them as archers where corner hiding is easier while still making dmg output reasonable. If people want to argue Evo is bad now because Timestop IGMS spam is no longer a thing, I don't know what to say other than (Greater Ruin/Hellball, Bigbys, Auto-blind incend cloud etc). DC casting is hugely limited and counterable and in order to build a SM with stealth you sacrifice a lot more than just Evo. They are glass cannons that shoot rubber bullets frankly. Previous poster stating SM is superior to "mundane" wiz due to reposition ability every 30 sec makes a compelling argument but it doesn't match the reality in game. AOE spams are a thing, debuffs are a thing. Summons w/ TS are a thing so on and so on.

[Gouge Away]

I dunno, I see stealth as usually being (one) a character's defining ability, (two) something you have to invest deeply in and (three) something that, when using, puts you in a precarious position if you're caught, whether intruding somewhere you shouldn't be or trying to pass someone who could kick your butt or..

Spot is a secondary ability (I'm a ranger who can spot, not a spotter who can range), it's passive so you don't need to do anything though of course it can be augmented with spells etc, and you're usually spotting from your home base or a well defended position so it's not risky to use. It's also pretty easy for some characters to max out if they have the skill points (as is listen.) Like all abilities it should work enough to be worth investing in, absolutely, but game-balance-wise if it works "sometimes" it will still be worth it AND stealth will also be worth it, whereas if spot/listen worked really well all the time and was any easier to get it would make stealth a pointless endeavor.

Just my opinion, I dunno. I think we have a decent balance now where both spotters and sneakers can have their moments. Enhancing spot even a little futher would tip the see-saw way too much in their direction IMO.

[Scurvy Cur]

Heavy Shadowdancer builds don't need Hips to level, they don't even need stealth, they solo almost everything due to the shadow.

Heavy rangers get Hips for free in wilderness areas, they never really needed this, they would still be a totally solid class without that. You don't go 16 ranger got Hips, there are very few builds that stop here, most go for 21 for bane of enemies, and better blade thirst.

SD5 is the only case where I could consider this a real nerf as Hips is the sole reason why they have SD.

Even then this is not as terrible. It is currently incredibly hard to spot stealthers, making Hips extremely strong, you don't need to do it every 12 seconds.

Yah but heavy SD is very weak as the Shadow is useless out of PVE. I agree ranger doesn't need HIPS, it's a full BaB class and has buffs etc. In fact, Ranger might be the only class w/ HIPS that makes sense now because it doesn't fundamentally "rely" on the mechanic.

SD is very popularly, if not mostly, run as 5 lvl dip (dips are not vilified so this isn't a bad thing, it's just the way it is).

Spotting stealthers is done through a large range of ways. And when spotted, they are EXTREMELY vulnerable. Now all the coutnerplay of TS scrolls, daily use items to boost listen etc, they will see you, but you won't be able to re-hide in any reasonable time. Without this ability, they will just die as they have poor AC, poor AB and awful saves.

On another note I like the the ideas for scaling CD reductions w/ SD lvls, it is a much friendlier approach. It would reward investment into the SD class and still allow a more reasonable 12-18 second CD to be attained. It still wouldn't help the SM.

Moving the goalposts much? First, it's heavy SD which is weak and needs the help. Now scaling for them won't help the SM.

I personally would have liked to see a 1 min CD, reducable by 1 round for every 3 SD levels past 5, but I think this is a good first step.

The blunt truth is that the 12 round CD on HiPS was predicated entirely on:

1) The widespread availability of TS scrolls.
2) The fact that TS from scrolls lasted a minute.
3) To a lesser extent the fact that you could still kill a HiPS character that neglected discipline in favor of stealth by KD-locking them.

The assumption was, in short "HiPS is fine on a 2 round CD because anyone with even a hint of a clue can beat it". None of those underlying foundations is true anymore. Every major change we've made to stealth, UMD, and TS in the last 2 years has made the ability stronger. As a result, something needed to change. This is a nice start, and the team deserves a kudos.

[Nitro]

Good change, 10/10. Adding HIPS to arelith happened in an era where TS was commonplace, easy to get and long duration. None of these are true any longer.

[Wrips]

Big fan of the nerf, personally.

[...]Call me biased, but the 5-dip line of SD builds have always come across to me as a cheap way to get the drop on the average player.