EDK

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-XXX-
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EDK

Post by -XXX- » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:35 pm

I was wondering what's the experience that other players using this feat have.

Personally, I do agree that in its previous iteration it was far too good, but I also can't help the feeling that it's somewhat mediocre ATM - often struggling in PvE against some non-boss spawns even.

My main finding would be something along these lines:
In its previous version the EDK was a fantastic tank, being able to go toe-to-toe with even the engame boss spawns. To remedy this, it's been altered to give it more of a "glasscannon" vibe. I've noticed however, that the AI just isn't good enough to pull this off.

Most of the time when the dragon gets summonned it
1. wastes the first round flat-footed doing nothing (always and regardless of whether the player tool gets used or not)
2. provokes attacks of opportunity wasting another round breaching a target regardless of whether it was actally warded or not
3. trades a round of attacks and dies as it's usually below half hp at that point


I dunno... maybe remove the breach to have it perform better?

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Re: EDK

Post by LichBait » Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:25 pm

It doesn't last long enough to be worthwhile IMO. It's easily killed by a lot of things due to mediocre AC, severely reduced DI and lowered HP. The damage is decent enough, at least. Gate is almost on par with it, and it doesn't cost a Feat and has more utility due to the diverse number of summons that can come from it.

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Re: EDK

Post by chris a gogo » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:23 pm

It's currently slightly stronger than the gate summon.
I took it because I wanted to summon a dragon with my wizard.
If your not wanting to waste any epic feats don't take it take something more useful and use gate for back up(honestly i do this anyway as the dragon gets killed faster) when your elemental dies.
No one uses the dragon and expects it to kill anything boss like because it just can't do it and it can't tank it either meaning it's purely for fun.

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Re: EDK

Post by Morgy » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:33 pm

I would say it needs a boost too, as currently I personally wouldn't bother with it at all.

Perhaps a simple HP boost would prevent it from being too much of a damage beast in PVP/PVE, whilst actually making it an acceptable tank.

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Re: EDK

Post by NMan7496 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:32 pm

It definitely needs something to make it worth burning the epic feat to take it, and not something that gets shredded worse than ancient elementals do against epic bosses.
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Re: EDK

Post by -XXX- » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:06 pm

I suppose that the stats were tweaked mainly with the following in mind
:arrow: not to make it too much of a powerhouse, mainly taking its PvP performance into consideration
:arrow: not to make it too durable, so that it can't tank endgame bosses while the mage blasts them into oblivion

Personally, I would like to have more fun with it. Very often I end up saving it during PvE as some sort of trump card... only not needing to use it at all or being disappointed by it when I do.
If the feat's power level is the main concern here, perhaps putting the feat in its current form on some prolonged cooldown instead of it being a 1/day ability would not break the balance in any way and allow you to use it more often during adventuring (or at least lead to less feel bad moments when it gets unceremoniously smothered by random mobs).

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Re: EDK

Post by NMan7496 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:54 pm

Yes, something like a 10 minute CD (6 minute duration and 4 minute down time for a CL30) would be nice if the power is going to stay as it is, then it would certainly get more use, than it just being a one off that just gets shredded immediately.

Also, something in script so it doesn't breach unwarded enemies first turn would be nice.
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Re: EDK

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:18 am

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:35 pm
Most of the time when the dragon gets summonned it
1. wastes the first round flat-footed doing nothing (always and regardless of whether the player tool gets used or not)
2. provokes attacks of opportunity wasting another round breaching a target regardless of whether it was actally warded or not
3. trades a round of attacks and dies as it's usually below half hp at that point
Maybe it's just me but I dont see a problem in this, here above.

Wasting 3-4 rounds of your opponents to kill the EDK is a legit and balanced outcome of this ability in pvp and that's only going to happen if your opponent is already fully buffed up and ready to rekt things. Its still a worthy epic feat option even for pvp.

To all those who say it's not worth picking anymore, I dont know how you miss the immense value of a big stompy summon with a huge hit box to hide in that cannot be ignored and WILL waste at least several rounds of the opponents action economy, and putting you significantly ahead just through that.

If the AI can be polished there a bit, good. But no buffs.
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Re: EDK

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:36 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:18 am
To all those who say it's not worth picking anymore, I dont know how you miss the immense value of a big stompy summon with a huge hit box to hide in that cannot be ignored and WILL waste at least several rounds of the opponents action economy, and putting you significantly ahead just through that.
Well that's the thing - it doesn't perform that way anymore. Not in PvE at least, and almost certainly not in PvP.
It's also greatly outperformed in this role by monolithic elementals

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Re: EDK

Post by Ninjimmy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:21 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:18 am
-XXX- wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:35 pm
Most of the time when the dragon gets summonned it
1. wastes the first round flat-footed doing nothing (always and regardless of whether the player tool gets used or not)
2. provokes attacks of opportunity wasting another round breaching a target regardless of whether it was actally warded or not
3. trades a round of attacks and dies as it's usually below half hp at that point
Maybe it's just me but I dont see a problem in this, here above.

Wasting 3-4 rounds of your opponents to kill the EDK is a legit and balanced outcome of this ability in pvp and that's only going to happen if your opponent is already fully buffed up and ready to rekt things. Its still a worthy epic feat option even for pvp.

To all those who say it's not worth picking anymore, I dont know how you miss the immense value of a big stompy summon with a huge hit box to hide in that cannot be ignored and WILL waste at least several rounds of the opponents action economy, and putting you significantly ahead just through that.

If the AI can be polished there a bit, good. But no buffs.
Curiosity, why are you saying that it cannot be ignored? What stops the opponent from just targeting you instead of the dragon?
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Re: EDK

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:25 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:21 pm
why are you saying that it cannot be ignored?
I just said why.

Either way, the nerfs to EDK werent that huge. It mostly took a hit to it's spell resistance and DR. It's still a semi-wm with ab that most characters cant really ignore, especially if they need to do things which toggle off their expertise. It is very useful. It is just not a pvp-win button.

Maybe I'm uneducated on this front but I was under the impression that Monolithic stuff require 28 CL. If that's not incorrect, its a bigger investment than EDK.
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Re: EDK

Post by Ninjimmy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:36 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:25 pm
Ninjimmy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:21 pm
why are you saying that it cannot be ignored?
I just said why.
OK, but that's not really like... answering the question.
Do you mean it can't be ignored, because it is seen as such a threat or is there a feature I'm not seeing?

I'm not tryna be snarky here, I'm genuinely trying to get why you're saying the opponent won't target the mage with arrows or something or drop a HiPS to stab em in the back.
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Re: EDK

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:04 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:36 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:25 pm
Ninjimmy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:21 pm
why are you saying that it cannot be ignored?
I just said why.
OK, but that's not really like... answering the question.
Do you mean it can't be ignored, because it is seen as such a threat or is there a feature I'm not seeing?

I'm not tryna be snarky here, I'm genuinely trying to get why you're saying the opponent won't target the mage with arrows or something or drop a HiPS to stab em in the back.
Dont really know how to answer that, honestly. Everyone is an archer with hips or something?

As I said, this dragon also makes the mage harder to CLICK.

And it /is/ still a threat, if you ignore it, it will do damage eventually. Before the nerfs, the darn thing could 1v1 cookie cutter builds with 39 ab and 70+ ac (with experitse). by how it looks to me now, it is in it's right place as a good side kick. It is easier to kill, it is not all that much weaker in ab so you should get rid of it unless you're an archer with hips and you are very good at clicking and camera angles.
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Re: EDK

Post by Ninjimmy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:41 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:04 pm

Dont really know how to answer that, honestly. Everyone is an archer with hips or something?

As I said, this dragon also makes the mage harder to CLICK.

And it /is/ still a threat, if you ignore it, it will do damage eventually. Before the nerfs, the darn thing could 1v1 cookie cutter builds with 39 ab and 70+ ac (with experitse). by how it looks to me now, it is in it's right place as a good side kick. It is easier to kill, it is not all that much weaker in ab so you should get rid of it unless you're an archer with hips and you are very good at clicking and camera angles.
Right, think I'm with it, you mean like the opposing player will have mechanical difficulty clicking on the mage due to the dragon.

Which could well be a thing? It hasn't been my experience.

I've never had an encounter where dropping the dragon has given me the impression my wizard was harder for folks to target, especially if they click while I'm casting. Which is kind of a problem since you cant Gsanc with it out (though that's a totally reasonable nerf, it'd be cheesetastic if not).
Plus it tends to get shredded if it's dropped in any of the endgame dungeons.
But I've not had to PvP an EDK before so maybe it IS still good at blocking in PvP it's just unprepared for PVE.

Either way, think I get your stance now.
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Re: EDK

Post by Skibbles » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:00 pm

If I could trade it out for vampires/mummies I absolutely would in a heartbeat, but I missed the rebuild window after the lore changes.

In the past it was crazy strong and there'd be half a dozen dragons running everywhere during a battle with multiple characters, so a nerf was needed.

Now it's a one-battle summon that often can't handle whatever its summoned against whether it's pve or pvp. Most fighters can kill even the undead variety in a round or two, and most clerics and mages won't have trouble with the usual WoF dismissal.

There's defenitly an argument that its mechanical size is an advantage by being close to it - but it's also an annoying disadvantage for that same reason.

Matched up against mummy dust you have an endless duration trio of excellent pve mobs that can fast intercept and harass characters in pvp too.

Sure they can be defeated in a similar manner to the dragon but the duration, combined with the spells you might be willing (or able) to spend on making them better makes it no contest which feat is going to be far more useful in far more scenarios.

Of course this is all from the pov of being evil. If you're good aligned the EDK is probably pretty nice to use since mummy dust isn't likely to be an option, but I would personally advise nobody to take it even in that case.
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Re: EDK

Post by LichBait » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:13 pm

Even if PvP it barely lasts 2 rounds anymore. I've seen one smoked in a round.

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Re: EDK

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:14 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:00 pm
it's a one-battle summon that often can't handle whatever its summoned against
Well... Good. Why should it solo kill bosses or players for you lol.
LichBait wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:13 pm
Even if PvP it barely lasts 2 rounds anymore. I've seen one smoked in a round.
This is situational and misleading. Many builds dont pierce the DR. Many builds also need to buff before even engaging the dragon or the player. And very few builds can really smoke it in 1 round, and it probably takes some lucky rolls.
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Re: EDK

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:39 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:04 pm
Dont really know how to answer that, honestly. Everyone is an archer with hips or something?

As I said, this dragon also makes the mage harder to CLICK.
The dragon's interfering with targeting is manageable, but even then it works both ways and messes with the summoner's ability to target too.
I wouldn't really list this as the main selling point as to why the EDK is good as is

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Re: EDK

Post by Chosen Son » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:56 pm

The dragon is largely good against builds that casters are already strong against, but largely useless against those they would need the help against.

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Re: EDK

Post by Skibbles » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:53 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:14 pm
Skibbles wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:00 pm
it's a one-battle summon that often can't handle whatever its summoned against
Well... Good. Why should it solo kill bosses or players for you lol.
It's representative of the trouble of the feat. It's supposed to be good for just one battle, but can't even handle the one task it's supposed to do.

I'm not sure the dragon knight will ever be anything but super weak or super strong because of this intended role. Every balance pass will probably just seesaw from one to the other.

There's simply better options.
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Re: EDK

Post by Hunter548 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:32 pm

Just want to add to the "EDK is kind of crap now" pile. I used it a few times on my recent PM character after the nerfs. Every time I dropped it, it was dead before it started meleeing things (It'd spend a round activating the fear aura, and a round casting greater breach). This is both in PvP situations, and against boss PvE encounters. Nine seconds of someone beating the dragon to death isn't really worth an epic feat to my mind.

Also, I was summoning the dracolich which I would assume is the most survivable of the streams because it has undead immunities. I can only imagine how much faster the others would have died in those situations.
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Re: EDK

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:03 pm

EDK is still fairly useful at least for PVE bosses. Want it to tank better? Try throwing an Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, and Bear's Endurance on it. Get the different summoning streams and use the right one for the situation. A red or gold dragon can eat meteor swarms all day and be fine, a silver one will go down pretty fast. Likewise, that silver dragon can eat ice storms all day while the red or gold one would die. If you're waiting until the middle of the battle to drop an unwarded silver dragon in the middle of a bunch of meteor swarms and Abazuur's fire breath of course you're going to get bad results. You can also use healing kits or spells to keep your dragon going. EDK might not be as overpowered as it used to be but it's not the wet tissue some of you claim it is either if used correctly.
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Re: EDK

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:45 pm

Yes, I tried fully buffing a dracolich EDK and have it fight mobs while pumping NE bursts into it.
It still performs mediocre at best.

Also, I don't think that having to buff round-based summons for them to be any good should be the baseline

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Re: EDK

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:58 pm

Do you have Epic Spell Focus Conjuration? Because in my experience even after the nerf dragons shred everything pre-epic and hold up fairly well even against end-game bosses. I never used the dracolich stream, but I would think it would be pretty durable with its undead immunities.
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Re: EDK

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:06 pm

Yes it is, it has most of the immunities the other dragons have alongside the undead properties.
I tried all the dragons with and without the feats needed to buff them - they're all mediocre.

The Gate Slaad sometimes even outperforms them thanks to its speed and DPS, not mentioning its smaller size making it a viable option in smaller corridors and tight spaces

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