Shadow Displacement

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the grim yeeter
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Shadow Displacement

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:35 am

Hi.

First, I do have to say that I'm not really a big fan of nerfing one ability (HiPS) and then compensating for it by adding another ability that serves the same purpose (Shadow Displacement). It reeks of that one time Owl's Insight got "nerfed" but at the same time all these monk items got added that made up for that loss in soft wisdom. We cannot really call it balancing then, can we? I say, if SDs get to keep this Shadow Displacement ability, double that HiPS cooldown to a minute. They just have way too many ways to escape that other classes do not.

Anyhow, some feedback on the new Shadow Displacement ability. As the update post does not at all provide any specifications on how this ability works, it had to be tested on the PGCC. There are some issues evident from just a few minutes of testing. See the image below.

Image

1. As you can see, this range is way too big. I honestly do not think I have to explain. My suggestion is to half it. At least.

2. Despite needing to be in the LOS of your shadow for it to work, it does seem that this ability works while your character is at a different elevation than your shadow. What this means is that, say you are on hill A and your shadow is on hill B (but still in LOS), you can use this ability to teleport to your shadow while your non-SD enemy has to make their way to the nearest ramp to physically get from hill A to hill B. If that ramp is way away, the actual distance that people need to travel to get to you is vastly increased, and your SD just managed to get away without having to use HiPS (because it turns out that was still on cooldown! See the conundrum, there?)

3. If you're fighting in an open area with little means to CS, you can position your shadow a great distance away, near a building (that you would otherwise travel a large distance for to get to), and if things go bad, you can teleport to your shadow and take one step behind the building to CS anyway. That's very similarly convenient to how HiPS works.

4. It is instant.
Last edited by the grim yeeter on Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AstralUniverse
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:44 am

Monk items are available to low level investment - Hips is also a low level investment.

Monk 'balancing' and 'tweaking' happened mostly to heavy invested monks - same as this shadow displacement ability. What was nerfed was mostly targeting dips in both cases.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:51 am

I do not see how this invalidates Hips balancing. From what I understood Hips was not balanced because it allowed Shadowdancers to escape easily, but rather because it did everything. It allowed Shadowdancers to escape, and to get easy flurries against flat-footed opponents.

As it is right now Shadow Displacement works as an escape mechanism but putting some distance between you and your enemy, but there is a big issue here. If your shadow is far away so you can teleport, then it is not near you while you fight, for that extra sneak attack.

This also only affects SDs 10+ which are not great at PvP either way.

the grim yeeter
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:54 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:51 am

This also only affects SDs 10+ which are not great at PvP either way.
This is very incorrect. I will provide some build(s) later when I have time.
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Drowboy
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Drowboy » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:44 pm

Did this update stop your shadow teleporting to you when an attack connects? Seems like the amount of micromanaging to pull this off mid-fight makes it a non-issue. But I suspect this thread is less feedback/discussion than lecture.
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jomonog
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by jomonog » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:00 pm

Honestly im not sure how useful it will be in PvP anyway as parking your shadow along way away with a view to escaping is probably not a great strategy for melee success. I guess if a fight is going south and HIPS is on cooldown you could send the shadow away using the associate tool then hope to teleport out far away enough before you die in battle. So at best its a potential way to not die rather than some all uber powerful melee ability

the grim yeeter
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:17 pm

Image

Just a quick example, but there're more ways to do it, no doubt. Its AB is not the best, but respectable nonetheless. Park your shadow somewhere in the back before PVP, and you can safely start/continue your windup after you've instantly teleported to it. Then it's firing time (called shot: leg for a cumulative -20% movement speed and -2 DEX so nobody will even get near you and you'll be lowering their AC with each hit). Reported the damage for sling (and I might've miscalculated the template damage (in green) some), but for both short- and crossbow it would be considerably higher (at the sacrifice of 5 AC (-6 AC from no shield, but +1 from shield skleen), owing to their higher base damage, the massive critical property on both weapons, the 3x multiplier for shortbow and the 1.5 divmight multiplier for crossbow. It's not like a -5 AC hurts the build much anyway, considering that it's very high already (and you have epic dodge on top of it). And let's not forget the undispellable 50% concealment.

Make this a fey and its movement speed will stack with rogue/shadowdancer stealth movement speed, so that you'll be faster in stealth mode than someone else is out of stealth mode. But that's another issue entirely, really. Let's just focus on Shadow Displacement for now.

People think going heavy SD isn't a viable option for PvP, but gradually, shadowdancer levels have been made to stack with rogue levels for the purpose of all these rogue abilities (i.e., rogue AB, lightly armoured, blinding speed cd, stealth movement speed), one at a time. Shadowdancer has become a strong class, really.

Edit: slight mistake. Sneak attack gained from SD levels when standing next to shadow is 8d6, not 7d6.
Last edited by the grim yeeter on Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Zenko » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:35 pm

As a heavy SD user im really only looking at the RP function this ability could create which im having a lot of fun thinking about what i could do with this.
For PVP this could be good but as people have said you will be taking away a good chunk of damage which is your sneak attacks.
Im interested to see what the community makes of the ability though as ive really not got the knowledge to know whats overpowered or just weak.
One thing i will say is that my class feels very PVE based and PVP has never been a strong suit with this class.
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the grim yeeter
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:39 pm

Zenko wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:35 pm
One thing i will say is that my class feels very PVE based and PVP has never been a strong suit with this class.
What is this based on?

Also, I am not saying I do not like this ability. In fact, I think it's very cool conceptually. I just think it needs tweaking from a mechanical point of view.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Zenko » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:46 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:39 pm
Zenko wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:35 pm
One thing i will say is that my class feels very PVE based and PVP has never been a strong suit with this class.
What is this based on?
3 Months of me playing a SD, the build i used was to focus on using my shadow as a shield to take the hits for me which doesn't really work in a PVP environment like it does PVE.

Im sure there are good builds out there that can focus on PVP but im saying my one feels like its best for PVE only

And yeah i like what they are doing with the class, im looking forward to see what the end product of this ability is.
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the grim yeeter
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:56 pm

Zenko wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:46 pm
the grim yeeter wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:39 pm
Zenko wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:35 pm
One thing i will say is that my class feels very PVE based and PVP has never been a strong suit with this class.
What is this based on?
3 Months of me playing a SD, the build i used was to focus on using my shadow as a shield to take the hits for me which doesn't really work in a PVP environment like it does PVE.

Im sure there are good builds out there that can focus on PVP but im saying my one feels like its best for PVE only
All SD builds are PvE builds inherently because of the huge defense the shadow has. That doesn't stop you, the summoner, from also having huge defense and good offense. The only difference is in PvP people won't target your shadow, so you will have to use HiPS and corner sneaking (and Shadow Displacement as well) now to land significant damage.

And while your particular build might be built poorly for PvP, with SD there's absolutely no need to do that as there's really nothing you can reasonably take to accentuate one over the other.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Arigard » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:07 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:Just a quick example, but there're more ways to do it, no doubt.
the grim yeeter wrote:Make this a fey
LOL did you really just base your example of a powerful Shadowdancer on the basis of it being paired with Harper Paragon? Not sure if you realize, but SD does not give you DS/DM. That's not where the crux of this imbalance is coming from. SD does not give you the massive speed bonus from Fey. That is not where the crux of this imbalance your talking about comes from. We've already established that's broke on a racial level that has nothing to do with SD? Come on, that's a real stretch. Half the reason that build starts to hit silly numbers in AC is due to the tokenised Harper class getting free divine might/shield. It's like saying "Well if you pair this with monk it starts to get crazy numbers, so this is the problem". No. Monk dips are the problem. "Well if you make it on a Fey it can be faster than everyone". That's a Fey problem.

It's incredibly disingenuous of you in this discussion tbh. Hell why not show the ridiculous numbers monk/paragon/CoT can hit also whilst your at it. There's plenty of stupid builds that Paragon can make due to its ability to get DS/DM over 5 levels that would trash all over your SD version and many other builds.

It sounds from your posts to be honest like you just don't like Shadow-dancers having options to escape you. That's pretty much their entire reason to exist, to be survivable. They don't have good HP, Saves, AB, spells, summons (outside of defense), or pretty much anything aside from suvivability at this point in terms of raw power and people are still arguing to even remove that even though there's a whole handful of classes and builds that have way more going for them at present.

If you reduce this ability too much, it becomes useless. SD needs something for investing over half of your entire class progression into it. This at least, gives something back.

Most heavy Shadowdancers, unless they are paired with monk and use a shield will hit around 60 ac. That's less than a dex spellsword, that's less than a pure monk, that's less that a character can with divine shield. Their ab at most with heavy rogue levels and a rogue weapon will end up in the 44-46 range. 42-43 if you're duel wielding. That's not great numbers compared to a whole load of classes that can hit 48-55 when build right. Their saves are right at the bottom for progression in terms of build options.

How bad do people really want SDers to be? It actually amazes me that we're still talking about SDers still after the HIPS nerf when you have a wealth of crazy options out there that have infinitely more power at their disposal.
Last edited by Arigard on Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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the grim yeeter
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:13 pm

Arigard wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:07 pm
LOL did you really just base your example of a powerful Shadowdancer on the basis of it being paired with Harper Paragon?
ROFLMAO XDDD, yes, I did.
Arigard wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:07 pm
the grim yeeter wrote:Just a quick example, but there're more ways to do it, no doubt.
the grim yeeter wrote:Make this a fey
[...] Not sure if you realize, but SD does not give you DS/DM. That's not where the crux of this imbalance is coming from. SD does not give you the massive speed bonus from Fey. That is not where the crux of this imbalance your talking about comes from. We've already established that's broke on a racial level that has nothing to do with SD? Come on, that's a real stretch. Half the reason that build starts to hit silly numbers in AC is due to the tokenised Harper class getting free divine might/shield. It's like saying "Well if you pair this with monk it starts to get crazy numbers, so this is the problem". No. Monk dips are the problem. "Well if you make it on a Fey it can be faster than everyone". That's a Fey problem.

[...]

It sounds from your posts to be honest like you just don't like Shadow-dancers having options to escape you. That's pretty much their entire reason to exist, to be survivable. They don't have good HP, Saves, AB, spells, summons (outside of defense), or pretty much anything aside from suvivability at this point in terms of raw power and people are still arguing to even remove that even though there's a whole handful of classes and builds that have way more going for them at present.

If you reduce this ability too much, it becomes useless. SD needs something for investing over half of your entire class progression into it. This at least, gives something back.
Just to be clear. I've given a multitude of examples in a good number of threads in the past as to why harper paragon is a too powerful class, why monk AC/div shield synergy (especially on ranged characters) shouldn't be a thing, why fey should have their movement speed increase capped to the normal level, and so on. I do not care about SDs specifically. I just care about mechanical balance.
Arigard wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:07 pm
It's incredibly disingenuous of you in this discussion tbh. Hell why not show the ridiculous numbers monk/paragon/CoT can hit also whilst your at it. There's plenty of stupid builds that Paragon can make due to its ability to get DS/DM over 5 levels that would trash all over your SD version and many other builds.
I actually do consistently present builds and numbers to show where the current balance should be improved. I just do it in many different threads. What I am showing in this particular thread here, is one example (so far, but hey, if you're asking for more, I'll be happy to provide) in which Shadow Displacement facilitates an already powerful build even more. But that's just in one post. If you look at the original post, you can see that I solely focus on the ability itself and provide reasonable arguments as to why the ability should be tweaked some.

Anyway, you can calm down and stop your angry mouth-foaming for now. I will post a non-paragon build later on.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Arigard » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:27 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:I actually do consistently present builds and numbers to show where the current balance should be improved.
And that's fine, but your use of it in this discussion as an example of why SD can be strong is simply not fair. If you want to talk about Shadowdancer balance, talk about Shadowdancer balance on a build that is actually something people are likely to play (rogue/ranger SD). Don't bring in a token dip and broken racial type and then bait and switch that those are the reason Shadowdancer can be powerful. The only reason a build can ever reach those numbers is down to things completely outside of the class we are discussing and 95% of people playing Shadowdancer are never going to have these options, so to preface it by using that as your example is what is disingenuous.
the grim yeeter wrote:Anyway, you can calm down and stop your angry mouth-foaming for now. I will post a non-paragon build later on.
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Last edited by Arigard on Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:28 pm

The build you posted above isnt even that overpowered when you consider what you've sacrificed to have this shadow displacement on a paragon build just to prove a point. Paragon is a locked class behind token and is generally just the best 5 lvl dip in the game regardless of anything. If I take your build and remove the SD out of it entirely, it becomes far far more powerful in pvp and you know it very well. So I dont really like this comparison. Pretty sure the build you've posted is one of the worse paragon builds out there for pvp.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:31 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:28 pm
The build you posted above isnt even that overpowered when you consider what you've sacrificed to have this shadow displacement on a paragon build just to prove a point. Paragon is a locked class behind token and is generally just the best 5 lvl dip in the game regardless of anything. If I take your build and remove the SD out of it entirely, it becomes far far more powerful in pvp and you know it very well. So I dont really like this comparison. Pretty sure the build you've posted is one of the worse paragon builds out there for pvp.
Then provide something to compare. You're giving absolutely nothing to actually back up your point. I'm very open to discussion. In fact, I'm eager.
Arigard wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:27 pm
the grim yeeter wrote:I actually do consistently present builds and numbers to show where the current balance should be improved.
And that's fine, but your use of it in this discussion as an example of why SD can be strong is simply not fair. If you want to talk about Shadowdancer balance, talk about Shadowdancer balance on a build that is actually something people are likely to play (rogue/ranger SD). Don't bring in a token dip and broken racial type and then bait and switch that those are the reason Shadowdancer can be powerful. The only reason a build can ever reach those numbers is down to things completely outside of the class we are discussing and 95% of people playing Shadowdancer are never going to have these options, so to preface it by using that as your example is what is disingenuous.
What point is there to even discussing mechanics if I have to ignore all these other mechanics (e.g., halfling AB, harper paragon as a class, etc.) that need fixing as well? They are there for the taking, no? I could play the build that I posted, if I wanted to, no? Should I deliberately post a weaker build that does not include abilities/races/classes that, each in turn, should be nerfed as well? Of course not. Just because they might be considered too powerful (and I do consider many of the mentioned things to be), does not at all mean I will not be picking them if they're there for me to (and I do not expect anyone else not to, either). To discuss mechanical balance properly, the absolute best mechanical options have to be considered, always.

As I said, the build I posted is just an example because Shadowy Reality said it was not possible to make a heavy-SD build that doesn't have PvP potential. It was not the point of the thread itself. In my original post, I focused on the ability itself completely, and gave arguments as to why the ability needs to be looked at.

Besides, if the result of this thread would be that paragon got nerfed, I would be a very happy player.

Anyway, there's a human melee rogue/bg/sd that I am working on currently. I will show it later.
Last edited by the grim yeeter on Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:44 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:31 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:28 pm
The build you posted above isnt even that overpowered when you consider what you've sacrificed to have this shadow displacement on a paragon build just to prove a point. Paragon is a locked class behind token and is generally just the best 5 lvl dip in the game regardless of anything. If I take your build and remove the SD out of it entirely, it becomes far far more powerful in pvp and you know it very well. So I dont really like this comparison. Pretty sure the build you've posted is one of the worse paragon builds out there for pvp.
Then provide something to compare. You're giving absolutely nothing to actually back up your point. I'm very open to discussion. In fact, I'm eager.
19 rogue, 6 fighter, 5 paragon alright? I dont have it written but just the difference in damage is enough for me without even checking the ab difference. Heavy SD builds really lack consistent damage source and kill pressure in pvp. It's been said by so many people by now, so many times and we've all partied with SDs in pve and pvp to see it live before us. Pushing the evasiveness higher instead of pulling a 'monk' on them seems like a neat idea to me. I'm probably not as eager as you to discuss this further so cheers. Edit: There's also 25 ranger archer 5 paragon.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:02 pm

I'm curious as to what happens if both you and your Shadow are in melee, with you being targeted, and you use shadow displacement - does the character targeting you then become flat-footed? Or do they automatically continue attacking you?
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:05 pm

Could be hilarious if they would continue attacking the same target (now the shadow) without having any indication about it except figuring out from the concealment and DR they are now trying to hit.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:08 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:31 pm
As I said, the build I posted is just an example because Shadowy Reality said it was not possible to make a heavy-SD build that doesn't have PvP potential.
I did, yes. And as others have said, they may have PvP potential but it is not because you are a heavy SD.

What is the Shadowdancer used for? If you remove Shadowdancer and add ranger, or fighter, you would probably be much better and have a much scarier build. It most definitely it is not Shadowdancer that enables that build to function. And most surely it is not the Shadow Displacement that enables that.

If you want to discuss Shadowdancer builds, let's discuss:

The typical Str Shadowdancer goes fighter6/rogue7/sd17 or something along those lines. I think we can all agree that this is not a great PvP build. Your AC is average, even with Shadow Evade, you do not have weapon master criticals, or divine might/shield. And you probably won't be getting that many sneak attacks in.

How does Shadow Displacement aid this build? It really only offers an escape avenue at the cost of not having your shadow near you for extra sneaks every now and then.

You can make the same but dex version and you have better AC, access to epic dodge, but heavy shadowdancer is again not doing much for you.

You can make a divine version, something like paladin4/rogue9/sd17 (or blackguard) and achieve something similar thing. This is probably alright, but it is alright on the back of being a paladin dip, not on the back of it being shadowdancer17.

The main point is: you are not PvP viable because you have 10+ shadowdancer levels, in fact, over shadowdancer 5 you are probably losing PvP potential. When it comes to PvP, Shadow Displacement is not worth going 10 SD levels over 5 and neither is going 17SD over 10, or 5.

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Zenko » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:15 pm


The typical Str Shadowdancer goes fighter6/rogue7/sd17 or something along those lines. I think we can all agree that this is not a great PvP build. Your AC is average, even with Shadow Evade, you do not have weapon master criticals, or divine might/shield. And you probably won't be getting that many sneak attacks in.
This is down to the tee what i use and you are correct.

Im hoping Shadow Displacement can grant me that extra bit of edge in combat and im going to build my class on the PGCC later today and do some heavy testing to see what i can use it for.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by magistrasa » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:28 pm

Stop talking about your weird theorycraft builds and discuss something useful for once!
Drowboy wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:44 pm
Did this update stop your shadow teleporting to you when an attack connects? Seems like the amount of micromanaging to pull this off mid-fight makes it a non-issue. But I suspect this thread is less feedback/discussion than lecture.
I had the same thought, and then I got worried by the fact that Archer/SD would get it real good if the shadow's auto-teleport was disabled. Then I wondered if any sane Archer would even invest that deeply into SD to begin with. Would this ability make it worth it?

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:08 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:28 pm
Would this ability make it worth it?
For an archer build? Maybe. Probably not. Its a decent trick to buy yourself some a round or two of free shooting basically. Its pretty good. 10 levels is a lot tho. I dont think any one will build towards this ability unless they are already going SD heavy for other reasons and that doesnt include archers. if the auto-follow of the shadow cannot be disabled this isnt even a question though.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Heroic Spirit » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:49 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:08 pm
magistrasa wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:28 pm
Would this ability make it worth it?
For an archer build? Maybe. Probably not. Its a decent trick to buy yourself some a round or two of free shooting basically. Its pretty good. 10 levels is a lot tho. I dont think any one will build towards this ability unless they are already going SD heavy for other reasons and that doesnt include archers. if the auto-follow of the shadow cannot be disabled this isnt even a question though.
If you speak to your shadow and have it stop -guarding you, then it won't auto-follow.

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:36 pm

Heroic Spirit wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:49 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:08 pm
magistrasa wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:28 pm
Would this ability make it worth it?
For an archer build? Maybe. Probably not. Its a decent trick to buy yourself some a round or two of free shooting basically. Its pretty good. 10 levels is a lot tho. I dont think any one will build towards this ability unless they are already going SD heavy for other reasons and that doesnt include archers. if the auto-follow of the shadow cannot be disabled this isnt even a question though.
If you speak to your shadow and have it stop -guarding you, then it won't auto-follow.
I didnt remember that (or it wasnt a thing when I played SD 2 years ago). So it's pretty good. I mean, what I want to see is deception, rather than just a means to buy some distance in combat. I hope it will be hard to know which is the right one until you've attacked and saw in the log if you're attacking concealment or DI.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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