Shadow Displacement

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garrbear758
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:35 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:02 pm
I'm curious as to what happens if both you and your Shadow are in melee, with you being targeted, and you use shadow displacement - does the character targeting you then become flat-footed? Or do they automatically continue attacking you?
They will continue attacking you. This does not break action queues by design.
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jomonog
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by jomonog » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:04 am

But it you swap places wont they then be attacking the shadow instead?

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:38 am

jomonog wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:04 am
But it you swap places wont they then be attacking the shadow instead?
No
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by jomonog » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:09 am

Just tested to see how it works. Is a cool ability but really i cant see how it adds any power to the class at all.

Maybe im missing something about how to use it. The fact that enemies automatically switch targets though means it cant be used to flatfoot and also cant really be used for deception in a battle (i.e tricking the opponent into thinking its still fighting you when instead they are fighting the shadow).

Seems pretty much limited to RP stuff or at best maybe situations where you need to escape an engagement. Even then though the range isnt that far and It is pretty hard to send the shadow away far enough from a fight even with associate tool because with the AI the shadow keeps wanting to run back into battle

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Ork
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Ork » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:40 pm

If you can't imagine how a reposition would help you in PvE or PvP, you should probably reserve your opinion. Off the top of my head, LoS break seems pretty pivotal.

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Halibutthead » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:47 pm

i'm with Ork, here, even though i generally don't like saying someone's opinion is wrong. not all fights are won by killing your enemies. it sounds like an extremely useful mobility technique, to me.

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by jomonog » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:10 am

Fair enough, I'll defer expressing my opinion and just enjoy the dawn of the new meta of broken 10 shadowdancer displace builds

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:57 am

jomonog wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:09 am
Just tested to see how it works. Is a cool ability but really i cant see how it adds any power to the class at all.

Maybe im missing something about how to use it. The fact that enemies automatically switch targets though means it cant be used to flatfoot and also cant really be used for deception in a battle (i.e tricking the opponent into thinking its still fighting you when instead they are fighting the shadow).
To try to address this helpfully for you;

1: Tell shadow Stand your ground over in a corner that won't have line of sight to your encounter (or just a narrow corner with limited LoS in general).
2: Hide, scout your target, engage from stealth with sneaks.
3: Target engages back- issue voice command "Attack Nearest," swap with shadow.
4: Your target will break from the shadow to chase you- your shadow will get crippling strike sneaks at your target. You are off in an LoS break area. Enter Stealth. You still have not utilized HiPS- you've used LoS breaks and scout-stealth so far. Your shadow is possibly getting wrecked right now, because your target lost their action queue on you.
5: Attack target from stealth - sneak flurry. If your shadow is still alive, your target is now choosing between strength drain and sneak damage until the fight is over.

6: At this point, if you don't think you can win with another sneak flurry, you use HiPS to leave, rather than re-engage.

Please note, I don't currently have a character with HiPS, and this is presuming (based on other threads) that the cooldown script factors in the fact that you utilized LoS for your first two stealths without HiPS. If it doesn't, it still gives you an extra use of stealth in a way that's almost as good as HiPS by guaranteeing a Line of Sight break. This is a very kind almost-extra-use of HiPS to shadowdancers, and the reposition shenanigans it opens up seem like they could be legendary.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by magistrasa » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:09 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:57 am
You still have not utilized HiPS
It doesn't make too much difference in the scenario you're describing, but HiPS fires off whenever you enter stealth and it's not on cooldown. Doesn't care if there's any enemies around, doesn't matter if you're breaking LoS. By entering stealth in any situation, you are using HiPS. Just thought that's worth pointing out is all.

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:13 am

magistrasa wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:09 am
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:57 am
You still have not utilized HiPS
It doesn't make too much difference in the scenario you're describing, but HiPS fires off whenever you enter stealth and it's not on cooldown. Doesn't care if there's any enemies around, doesn't matter if you're breaking LoS. By entering stealth in any situation, you are using HiPS. Just thought that's worth pointing out is all.
Good to know! Thank you. :)

Edit- Two things;

1: It seems to me that it will become an art-form to stealth, destealth, trigger the cooldown, 18-24 seconds before your encounter, restealth in the meantime, engage from stealth just as your cooldown timer is refreshing, and have it available again.
2: Is this an exploit or valid resource management and combat timing?
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Halibutthead
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Halibutthead » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:27 am

sounds like resource management within a limited framework to me, but that could be wishful thinking.

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by magistrasa » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:35 am

It can only be resource management, though a highly unwieldy and irritating form of it. If it's somehow supposed to be considered an exploit, it's one that we have no choice but to utilize! Trust me, SDs and other HiPS users have been wanting it as an actual ability for ages now. The ability to actually control one's use of HiPS would be such a game changer. Now with HAKs, maybe we can finally untie it from the stealth toggle already!

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jomonog
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by jomonog » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:56 am

Thanks for trying to explain an effective use but i still dont get it? Why not just attack from stealth in the first place with the shadow next to me so i get all the sneak damage in? Why bother parking the shadow somewhere then swapping before engaging? Im confused...

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Shadowy Reality » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:08 am

Ork wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:40 pm
If you can't imagine how a reposition would help you in PvE or PvP, you should probably reserve your opinion. Off the top of my head, LoS break seems pretty pivotal.
If you are going to tell people to refrain from posting their minds, at least explain your own, this is nothing.

Shadow Displacement doesn't change the LoS paradigm. It is irrelevant if you are 10 feet ahead of your enemy or 10 inches, all you need it a split second of breaking LoS and hitting stealth, which you can do but simply going around a corner and hitting stealth, and immediately getting a flurry of attacks with sneak.

You are also losing sneak attack potential while your shadow waits far away.

The single scenario where this makes a different is if you target does not need to move to hit you, such as against casters or archers and those seconds running for a LoS break could make a difference.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:08 pm

Shadow Displacement feels like a very MOBA-y ability to me. This isn't a bad thing, it just means that its usefulness depends greatly on player skill, imagination, and resourcefulness. Like, personally? I probably wouldn't be able to get much value out of it, because I am a hot mess in chaotic situations. But I suspect that, in capable hands, it could be used in all sorts of devious ways to disorient and gain advantage.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Jagel » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:01 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:08 pm
Shadow Displacement feels like a very MOBA-y ability to me. This isn't a bad thing, it just means that its usefulness depends greatly on player skill, imagination, and resourcefulness. Like, personally? I probably wouldn't be able to get much value out of it, because I am a hot mess in chaotic situations. But I suspect that, in capable hands, it could be used in all sorts of devious ways to disorient and gain advantage.
I would like to echo this.

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by satan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:38 am

Given the changes to SD, would it be possible to get a relevel now?

A lot of people that took 5 levels only (myself included) would have taken 10 if shadow displacement existed before.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:05 am

Not that I mind personally, but this has be explained before multiple times. No -relevel unless the character has directly lost functionality due to the changes. Did your character lose any functionality because this ability was added?
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by satan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:23 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:05 am
Not that I mind personally, but this has be explained before multiple times. No -relevel unless the character has directly lost functionality due to the changes. Did your character lose any functionality because this ability was added?
In a way yes. The way it is built is based on the class being how it was. If I did it with the new class mechanics it would have had shadow dosplacement. As I recall monks got relevels regardless when that class was changed.
Xyxz - Goblin spider druid. RIP
Flail - Orog weapon master RIP
Krom - Half orc Barbarian RIP
Glyngolyn - Firbolg Shadowdancer RIP
Jigjog - the least industrious Kobold ACTIVE
Muck - munching on carion. ACTIVE

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:58 am

satan wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:23 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:05 am
Not that I mind personally, but this has be explained before multiple times. No -relevel unless the character has directly lost functionality due to the changes. Did your character lose any functionality because this ability was added?
In a way yes. The way it is built is based on the class being how it was. If I did it with the new class mechanics it would have had shadow dosplacement. As I recall monks got relevels regardless when that class was changed.
How is the way you build a 5 dip SD build any different now? it hasnt been changed one bit by adding a new ability. You can argue that the hips nerf is the reason for rebuilds but that's a different topic and again, the class did not lose any functionality. We've been over this.

Monks... good example. When you build your monk around wisdom because you need 21 for improved ki. All of a sudden you no longer need more than 16 for that same feat but you now need 25+ dex for e-dodge which you previously could not have accessed. Wisdom monks lost a LOT of functionality. (in fact, 6 hard flat-foot ac precisely. just striked off). Do you see the huge difference there?
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by satan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:26 pm

The reason it's a 5 level dip is because there was no incentive to go to ten, and now there is. If I had built it with the existing class mechanics the build would be different.
Xyxz - Goblin spider druid. RIP
Flail - Orog weapon master RIP
Krom - Half orc Barbarian RIP
Glyngolyn - Firbolg Shadowdancer RIP
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Muck - munching on carion. ACTIVE

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:03 pm

satan wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:26 pm
The reason it's a 5 level dip is because there was no incentive to go to ten, and now there is. If I had built it with the existing class mechanics the build would be different.
You can always request a delevel in order to change your build, but since the update didn't cause you to lose function on your current build, a relevel is pretty unlikely.
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:06 am

One of the main reason HiPS cooldown was nerfed was becuase of an abusable auto succes where you can auto flatfoot your opponent every third round regardless of their spot and your stealth. It was not just because of a spammable escape tool (though that is powerful too). Displacement is not a the same thing as lower cooldown HiPS

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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by godhand- » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:20 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:08 pm
Shadow Displacement feels like a very MOBA-y ability to me. This isn't a bad thing, it just means that its usefulness depends greatly on player skill, imagination, and resourcefulness. Like, personally? I probably wouldn't be able to get much value out of it, because I am a hot mess in chaotic situations. But I suspect that, in capable hands, it could be used in all sorts of devious ways to disorient and gain advantage.
when i suggested it, this is what i had in mind, a moba like ability which, whilst not specifically powerful itself, has the ability to confuse an opponent in the chaos of a battle.

In my mind i can see a few situations where its beneficial, such as,
sending my shadow in to attack whilst i'm stealthed - a good player knows its the shadow then all of a sudden you can displace to it, allowing for bulk damage.
The inverse of that - be in combat, send my shadow running away - The other person now has to react, AM i going to displace to it, am i not? Do you attack the player or chase the shadow???? it creates a dynamic situation they have to react to.

In fact, i originally had the idea for it on a shuriken throwing monk/SD build i was playing. the ability to send my shadow in to attack in melee, while i throw shurikens at the opponent. then when they run towards me, i could displace, swap to melee and start chunkign damage at them up close (i had focuses in both)

Especially now they have fixed the name bug, so the epic shadow retains the players name, its going to make it somewhat more challenging in the middle of a fight to know who is the real one when the person is swapping all over the place, stealthing, unstealthing etc.
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

Anomandaris
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Re: Shadow Displacement

Post by Anomandaris » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:31 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:58 am
satan wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:23 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:05 am
Not that I mind personally, but this has be explained before multiple times. No -relevel unless the character has directly lost functionality due to the changes. Did your character lose any functionality because this ability was added?
In a way yes. The way it is built is based on the class being how it was. If I did it with the new class mechanics it would have had shadow dosplacement. As I recall monks got relevels regardless when that class was changed.
How is the way you build a 5 dip SD build any different now? it hasnt been changed one bit by adding a new ability. You can argue that the hips nerf is the reason for rebuilds but that's a different topic and again, the class did not lose any functionality. We've been over this.

Monks... good example. When you build your monk around wisdom because you need 21 for improved ki. All of a sudden you no longer need more than 16 for that same feat but you now need 25+ dex for e-dodge which you previously could not have accessed. Wisdom monks lost a LOT of functionality. (in fact, 6 hard flat-foot ac precisely. just striked off). Do you see the huge difference there?
Just out of curiosity what is the point of arguing against someone receiving a re-level? I can't imagine any circumstance I'd advocate for another player, upset by a given nerf, to not receive the opportunity to fix their build. It doesn't hurt anyone it just makes them feel less aggrieved by a change that affected their build... It just seems odd.

Now to answer your specific question about how this would change the 5 dip SD build. Simply saying it does not doesn't make it true.

-First off one might not go with the 5 dip SD build to begin with due to changes to HIPS, a new ability offered at a higher level investment and recent implementations making rogue/SD lvls stack better for some pretty important tools thus reducing the penalty for more SD lvls vs. Rogue. So one may elect to go to a larger SD investment for the new ability, shadow evade AC & duration or alternatively elect to not go the SD route at all.

-A new ability being added "not affecting" a 5 lvl dip is kind of the problem. Simply not "losing" functionality (which it did demonstrably) is in my mind not a good benchmark for substantiating a relevel. In your monk example, the monk didn't "lose'' functionality. In fact a prerequisite got lowered for another feat and then a new cookie was added they couldn't get before (without a re-level). Sounds kind of familiar actually.... Of course monks were kicking themselves they would have to completely re-grind to change their ability score distribution and adjust some feats to now get Epic Dodge. Sounds like SD's wanting to maybe take more SD lvls to now get this sweet new ability.... ^ ^

-Mechanically speaking with frequent HIPS access, stealth was used heavily in lieu of AC & saves for defensive purposes. This is also the same for Shadowmages (many don't take Epic Mage Armor as an example). The builds are often heavily optimized for pushing into 90-100+ stealth (multiple feats, gear etc). Literally everything from feats, skills and gear were tailored to this end, where with a longer CD (30 seconds +) another approach is not only prudent but required. This is just speaking defensively, there are offensive considerations as well (more so for melee PCs not SMs). A lot of these builds rely heavily on sneak attacks for dmg output and flat footed strikes for hits. For example, I didn't take Prowess or improved expertise, I certainly would now.

If nothing else it's a bummer to see a really cool new ability added for the class (which may have changed the whole build strategy from 5 lvl dip to higher) and not be able to take advantage without slogging through a long re-grinding. As someone who's been around for a long time and clearly has a strong understanding of builds and mechanics, I guarantee you would advocate a number of very obvious changes to how these PCs are built to account for the much larger (250% increase) window of exposure and fewer opportunities for sneak attacks. This could be looking at a SD build concept from scratch or even just "how" to build a 5 lvl dip in the new meta. Higher AC, more focus on Discipline perhaps, more SD lvls for the AC from shadow evade, less investment into stealth as a mainstay just to mention a few.

At the end of the day, what do you care if it makes people happy and isn't unfair? Why stop someone like me or this other player from being able to use this cool new ability that the class now offers? It's not like it gives us an undue mechanical advantage, we're still constrained by all the given rules in how we can build a PC. It just prevents us from a big waste of our lives to grind back to 30 to adjust to this change.

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