Please change Parry AC as follows

[R0GUE]

Right now the one handed Parry AC bonus skips from +4 at 20 BAB to +6 at 21 BAB. I propose you make it so you cap at +5 at 20 BAB. I would also reconfigure the earlier BAB Progression to +2 at 5, +3 at 10, +4 at 15, but this is negotiable.

I feel like this is a better solution and a fair compromise to the nerf. Skipping over from 4 to 6 based on a single BAB point that certain builds can never achieve feels very punishing.

[The Rambling Midget]

I feel like this is a better solution and a fair compromise to the nerf. Skipping over from 4 to 6 based on a single BAB point that certain builds can never achieve feels very punishing.

I'm pretty sure that was the point. The maximum bonus is meant only for those classes that have trained sufficiently to be masters of physical combat. Anyone with shield proficiency can achieve the same AC bonus by using a shield.

A wizard who maxed out Parry by sitting down and reading a lot of books about it shouldn't get as good a bonus as a character who learned by doing.

If you're blocking with a weapon, you have to be really good with it. A low BAB suggests that you are not.

[R0GUE]

I feel like this is a better solution and a fair compromise to the nerf. Skipping over from 4 to 6 based on a single BAB point that certain builds can never achieve feels very punishing.

I'm pretty sure that was the point. The maximum bonus is meant only for those classes that have trained sufficiently to be masters of physical combat. Anyone with shield proficiency can achieve the same AC bonus by using a shield.

A wizard who maxed out Parry by sitting down and reading a lot of books about it shouldn't get as good a bonus as a character who learned by doing.

If you're blocking with a weapon, you have to be really good with it. A low BAB suggests that you are not.

But Rogues and Bards are primarily the types of classes who A) use parry and B) fit the fencing stereotype along with the new swashbuckler. Yet they get frozen out of not only +6, but also +5. Just yesterday we were getting +6. Im ok with tuning and balance, but they've made the ability fairly useless to rogues and bards now, who are back to being better off with a shield or off hand weapon.

[Bjorn Blue Tiger]

Right now the one handed Parry AC bonus skips from +4 at 20 BAB to +6 at 21 BAB. I propose you make it so you cap at +5 at 20 BAB. I would also reconfigure the earlier BAB Progression to +2 at 5, +3 at 10, +4 at 15, but this is negotiable.

I feel like this is a better solution and a fair compromise to the nerf. Skipping over from 4 to 6 based on a single BAB point that certain builds can never achieve feels very punishing.

The bonus does not jump from +4 at 20 to +6 at 21.

This is the new progression:

5 BAB & 5 hard parry skill points: +1. (Possible at level 5)
10 BAB & 10 hard parry skill points: +2. (Possible at level 10)
15 BAB & 15 hard parry skill points: +3. (Possible at level 15)
20 BAB & 20 hard parry skill points: +4. (Possible at level 20)
20 BAB & 25 hard parry skill points: +5. (Possible at level 22)
20 BAB & 30 hard parry skill points: +6. (Possible at level 27)

[Gouge Away]

A wizard who maxed out Parry by sitting down and reading a lot of books about it shouldn't get as good a bonus as a character who learned by doing.

I don't think a wizard could get 20 BAB without something like an 8+ level full BAB dip? Which no sane wizard would do. Maybe my math is off but I'm sure it's more than the standard 4 or 5 level ranger dip.

I think 20 BAB for full 3/4 classes seems reasonable myself even though I'd likely never play one. The only issue might be lv 30 healers but they can use shields so..

[The Rambling Midget]

I don't think a wizard could get 20 BAB without something like an 8+ level full BAB dip? Which no sane wizard would do. Maybe my math is off but I'm sure it's more than the standard 4 or 5 level ranger dip.

That's what I'm saying. The way the system is currently set up, casters are blocked from getting the maximum bonus unless they take a big hit to their casting ability. It's a good thing.

3/4 AB classes, however, will reach the required BAB to max out the bonus at level 28 or 30, since it's pretty typical to aim for at least 21 BAB in the end.

[R0GUE]

Right now the one handed Parry AC bonus skips from +4 at 20 BAB to +6 at 21 BAB. I propose you make it so you cap at +5 at 20 BAB. I would also reconfigure the earlier BAB Progression to +2 at 5, +3 at 10, +4 at 15, but this is negotiable.

I feel like this is a better solution and a fair compromise to the nerf. Skipping over from 4 to 6 based on a single BAB point that certain builds can never achieve feels very punishing.

The bonus does not jump from +4 at 20 to +6 at 21.

This is the new progression:

5 BAB & 5 hard parry skill points: +1. (Possible at level 5)
10 BAB & 10 hard parry skill points: +2. (Possible at level 10)
15 BAB & 15 hard parry skill points: +3. (Possible at level 15)
20 BAB & 20 hard parry skill points: +4. (Possible at level 20)
20 BAB & 25 hard parry skill points: +5. (Possible at level 22)
20 BAB & 30 hard parry skill points: +6. (Possible at level 27)

Bjorn, thank you so much for taking time to answer on this thread. I think if what you are saying is what you intended, then the system is actually bugged. I reported this last night, but Xerah told me in that thread that the BAB needed to get uncap the AC bonus was 21.

I encourage you to look at my character in game. She is level 29, has a BAB of 20, and 32 hard skill ranks in parry. When she equips her rapier in one hand she only gets the +4 AC bonus now.

Can you please take a look in game and make sure the system is working as intended? Thanks!

[dallion43]

This is the new progression:

5 BAB & 5 hard parry skill points: +1. (Possible at level 5)
10 BAB & 10 hard parry skill points: +2. (Possible at level 10)
15 BAB & 15 hard parry skill points: +3. (Possible at level 15)
20 BAB & 20 hard parry skill points: +4. (Possible at level 20)
20 BAB & 25 hard parry skill points: +5. (Possible at level 22)
20 BAB & 30 hard parry skill points: +6. (Possible at level 27)

https://imgur.com/GGT9Xcd


30 bard, 20bab, 34parry(33hard-1dex+2parry.gloves). +4ac from parry.
I am assuming it isn't live yet on PGG, or I messed up somewhere? If I did, I need to apologize in the other tread so please let me know :p.

[Bjorn Blue Tiger]

Sorry, a small mistake on my end.

This is the real new progression:

5 BAB & 5 hard parry skill points: +1. (Possible at level 5)
10 BAB & 10 hard parry skill points: +2. (Possible at level 10)
15 BAB & 15 hard parry skill points: +3. (Possible at level 15)
20 BAB & 20 hard parry skill points: +4. (Possible at level 20)
21 BAB & 25 hard parry skill points: +5. (Possible at level 22)
21 BAB & 30 hard parry skill points: +6. (Possible at level 27)

[Bjorn Blue Tiger]

Just so you guys know, your feedback is not ignored. I'll try to bring this subject on the table with the contribs when we have time.

[R0GUE]

EDIT: Taking this down because Bjorn posted the new Progression. Thanks.

[Jencent]

Maybe we should make a new feat? For uncap this BAB for players which don't wanna wear a shield, but they can't reach 21 BAB for +6AC?

It will be like a shield prof.feat, but with requirements to 21+ agi? Fair enough?

[Itikar]

Keep in mind that a feat is a feat, and if you want +2 ac from a feat armor skin would probably be better as it works always, not just with one-handed weapons.

[AstralUniverse]

This is the real new progression:

5 BAB & 5 hard parry skill points: +1. (Possible at level 5)
10 BAB & 10 hard parry skill points: +2. (Possible at level 10)
15 BAB & 15 hard parry skill points: +3. (Possible at level 15)
20 BAB & 20 hard parry skill points: +4. (Possible at level 20)
21 BAB & 25 hard parry skill points: +5. (Possible at level 22)
21 BAB & 30 hard parry skill points: +6. (Possible at level 27)

This is 100% awesome and solves the casters problem. Mages shouldnt get the same bonus as bards, who in turn shouldnt get the same bonus as fighters. Mages can still get +3 ac with 15 parry investment. Bards can still get +4 if pure and +6 if there's a full-bab class dip in pre-epic levels (thus, more combat oriented). This seems right on point and I like it.

[R0GUE]

This is the real new progression:

5 BAB & 5 hard parry skill points: +1. (Possible at level 5)
10 BAB & 10 hard parry skill points: +2. (Possible at level 10)
15 BAB & 15 hard parry skill points: +3. (Possible at level 15)
20 BAB & 20 hard parry skill points: +4. (Possible at level 20)
21 BAB & 25 hard parry skill points: +5. (Possible at level 22)
21 BAB & 30 hard parry skill points: +6. (Possible at level 27)

This is 100% awesome and solves the casters problem. Mages shouldnt get the same bonus as bards, who in turn shouldnt get the same bonus as fighters. Mages can still get +3 ac with 15 parry investment. Bards can still get +4 if pure and +6 if there's a full-bab class dip in pre-epic levels (thus, more combat oriented). This seems right on point and I like it.

The thing that gets missed here though, is no bard will ever use this as it stands because it's better to use a buckler. Yet, unlike a standard mage, a bard is exactly the type of character who one could imagine as a dashing parrying type of fighter. I'm just arguing to give bards an option that's at least equal to wearing a fencing buckler.

[AstralUniverse]

This is the real new progression:

5 BAB & 5 hard parry skill points: +1. (Possible at level 5)
10 BAB & 10 hard parry skill points: +2. (Possible at level 10)
15 BAB & 15 hard parry skill points: +3. (Possible at level 15)
20 BAB & 20 hard parry skill points: +4. (Possible at level 20)
21 BAB & 25 hard parry skill points: +5. (Possible at level 22)
21 BAB & 30 hard parry skill points: +6. (Possible at level 27)

This is 100% awesome and solves the casters problem. Mages shouldnt get the same bonus as bards, who in turn shouldnt get the same bonus as fighters. Mages can still get +3 ac with 15 parry investment. Bards can still get +4 if pure and +6 if there's a full-bab class dip in pre-epic levels (thus, more combat oriented). This seems right on point and I like it.

The thing that gets missed here though, is no bard will ever use this as it stands because it's better to use a buckler. Yet, unlike a standard mage, a bard is exactly the type of character who one could imagine as a dashing parrying type of fighter. I'm just arguing to give bards an option that's at least equal to wearing a fencing buckler.

Pure bards might benefit more from a buckler (but not without it's downsides of ASF), but a bard with literally any warriorish dip will get the +6. Bards are also some if not /the/ best parry users, even before this ac bonus, due to how high they can boost their parry with bardsong so they already benefit from this skill a lot anyway.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Alright, so I'm building a bard. I can either use this very cheap and easy to make shield that gives +5 AC. Or I can spend a whole bunch of skill points on a skill I'll never use and get +4 AC. HMMMMM. Which one should I do?!

[Kaeldre]

I think it is worth noting that a fair number of bards choose to multiclass four levels into a high BAB class to push their pre-epic BAB to 16 for an extra attack per round, which ultimately sets their final BAB to 21. In which case they would receive the full benefit of this change.

[AstralUniverse]

Alright, so I'm building a bard. I can either use this very cheap and easy to make shield that gives +5 AC. Or I can spend a whole bunch of skill points on a skill I'll never use and get +4 AC. HMMMMM. Which one should I do?!

Once again you dont fail to show us your immense gap in mechanical knowledge and building. You should be maxing parry on a dex bard regardless of what shield you're using or how much AC you get without shield simply because Parry is very good on bards as said above. I dont think anyone would argue with you that for ac purpose, as a pure bard, you better off with a buckler. This is very simple math to do.

[Baron Saturday]

I get the thematic arguments against, but I don't see what the mechanical point is in preventing characters that are pure 3/4 BAB builds from reaching the full +6 AC. Is there some huge advantage they can gain that I'm missing? If not, why not simply let them have it?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Alright, so I'm building a bard. I can either use this very cheap and easy to make shield that gives +5 AC. Or I can spend a whole bunch of skill points on a skill I'll never use and get +4 AC. HMMMMM. Which one should I do?!

Once again you dont fail to show us your immense gap in mechanical knowledge and building. You should be maxing parry on a dex bard regardless of what shield you're using or how much AC you get without shield simply because Parry is very good on bards as said above. I dont think anyone would argue with you that for ac purpose, as a pure bard, you better off with a buckler. This is very simple math to do.

The buckler gives +6 Parry so even if I do want to focus on Parrying the buckler is still the better option.

[The Rambling Midget]

The buckler gives +6 Parry

It's only +3. Not useless, but not game changing either.

You're probably thinking of Adamantine Bracers of Avoidance, which give +6.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Ah right, my bad.

[AstralUniverse]

I get the thematic arguments against, but I don't see what the mechanical point is in preventing characters that are pure 3/4 BAB builds from reaching the full +6 AC. Is there some huge advantage they can gain that I'm missing? If not, why not simply let them have it?

ASF

[Gouge Away]

A pure dex bard is not an optimal build by any means and I think that's the only character this ASF penalty would apply to. Why not just give them this? Are the buckler industry's lobbyists so strong they're pushing this legislation through?