All things traps - Could we make them more viable?

[White_935]

Greetings!

Traps ..and traps!... these have always been a risky concept on arelith due to the how the rules makes the trap-placer responsible for anyone unintended walking into them.

This results in Trappers risking the point of being charged with attacking without roleplay if there's a speeding monk charging past the area you're preparing a ambush on or so on.

So... is there nothing we can do to solve it?

I've come to consider a few changes that i believe would help resolve the issues, if it's possible to implement, feel free to post your own or comment on mine, but let's get a discussion going on how we might improve the sort of awkward situation traps are in right now.

#1 Traps triggers on hostiles only.
- Currently the world is set to full pvp across the board, resulting in traps triggering on both neutral and hostile creatures a long as their not in the trappers party, is it possible we could alter the flags for the trap so they only trigger on the individuals the trapper's set to hostile.

#2 Automatically disarm traps that lose attachment to a character.
- Traps lose association with the rogue if he crashes/relogs etc.. this causes the traps to become neutral and the trapper might even struggle with disarming his own traps at this point.. equally it also means combat log shows "unknown damaged X" Rather than the trappers name.. this would ensure trappers don't leave traps behind, remove the issue with non attachment (for suggestion #1) and hopefully make griefing with traps harder?

-
So, do anyone think these are viable suggestions to improve the ease the use of traps somewhat?

[DangerDolphin]

A traps rework is in progress, dealing with traps triggering on non-hostiles should be included for the second stage

The first stage is an overhaul of damage and effects and should be coming around the end of this week or early next week.

[Archnon]

Also just going to Necro and leave this here for some more info and ideas

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=26544&hilit=Traps+viable

Also the weight reduction trap boxes were huge in this regard!

[DangerDolphin]

Thanks, that was a good read. I've got most of the problems listed covered, though stuff like lowering the DC to disarm/spot player traps is definitely stage 2 thing. As is re-stealthing after setting a trap (If I decide to handle that)

[Archnon]

Even doing a 10 second grace period before you destealth would let you reposition yourself. Not sure if that is viable though. And then you couldn't place more than one trap while stealthed. Just a thought and yes I know suggestions are closed.

[White_935]

Thanks, that was a good read. I've got most of the problems listed covered, though stuff like lowering the DC to disarm/spot player traps is definitely stage 2 thing. As is re-stealthing after setting a trap (If I decide to handle that)

Will "Craft Trap" Skill become useful at all?

It's a skill that's never seen a useage so far ingame.

[Hunter548]

A traps rework is in progress, dealing with traps triggering on non-hostiles should be included for the second stage

The first stage is an overhaul of damage and effects and should be coming around the end of this week or early next week.

Will this overhaul include an addition of ways to interact with player-set traps? As it is currently (IE, in vanilla), player set traps have monsterously high detect and disable DCs and can be stacked ontop of each other, meaning that if someone is putting down traps the only thing you can really do is use a source of the find traps spell and then try to go around - since if you run over them, you might be triggering five traps rather than just one, and instantly die.

[DangerDolphin]

A traps rework is in progress, dealing with traps triggering on non-hostiles should be included for the second stage

The first stage is an overhaul of damage and effects and should be coming around the end of this week or early next week.

Will this overhaul include an addition of ways to interact with player-set traps? As it is currently (IE, in vanilla), player set traps have monsterously high detect and disable DCs and can be stacked ontop of each other, meaning that if someone is putting down traps the only thing you can really do is use a source of the find traps spell and then try to go around - since if you run over them, you might be triggering five traps rather than just one, and instantly die.

Trap stacking will be disabled already in stage 1, so you won't trigger 5 at once.

Stage 2 is when I will look into reducing detection and disable DC on player traps

[Hunter548]

A traps rework is in progress, dealing with traps triggering on non-hostiles should be included for the second stage

The first stage is an overhaul of damage and effects and should be coming around the end of this week or early next week.

Will this overhaul include an addition of ways to interact with player-set traps? As it is currently (IE, in vanilla), player set traps have monsterously high detect and disable DCs and can be stacked ontop of each other, meaning that if someone is putting down traps the only thing you can really do is use a source of the find traps spell and then try to go around - since if you run over them, you might be triggering five traps rather than just one, and instantly die.

Trap stacking will be disabled already in stage 1, so you won't trigger 5 at once.

Stage 2 is when I will look into reducing detection and disable DC on player traps

What about other forms of counterplay, or reducing damage? Epic electrical traps do pretty substantial damage even one at a time, and the vast majority of characters (Anyone who isn't a ranger, a rogue or, a wizard at my best guess) can't really afford ranks in those skills, so fundamentally the experience doesn't change for them.

[DangerDolphin]

What about other forms of counterplay, or reducing damage? Epic electrical traps do pretty substantial damage even one at a time, and the vast majority of characters (Anyone who isn't a ranger, a rogue or, a wizard at my best guess) can't really afford ranks in those skills, so fundamentally the experience doesn't change for them.

Elemental buffer, Freedom. Don't chase after someone kiting you into an area they have prepared ahead of time.

Electrical traps will still only do damage and nothing else, so you can heal potion back up once you run into one.

[Scurvy Cur]

Trap stacking will be disabled already in stage 1, so you won't trigger 5 at once.

Whether this is an effective restriction is going to hinge largely on how it's handled, so simply saying "disabled trap stacking" really doesn't settle concerns. Are you simply going to prevent overlap, or are you going to provide a minimum possible spacing? Is there going to be a restriction on how many traps can be triggered in any window of time, or will the restrictions only be spatial? Are you going to restrict the number of traps a trapsetter may place at once or leave it unrestricted?

For example, a trap stacking restriction that only prevents direct overlap will solve only the problem with the old "instantly take 900 damage from stacked traps" problem, but might still be oppressive.

More generally, I'd flag traps down as one of the least interactive and least enjoyable systems in vanilla NWN. I'm glad to hear that you're aware of some of the issues inherent with the system, but I'd suggest a few additional things:

- Restrict the number of traps any trapper can have out at any given time. 2-3 ought to be enough to make a meaningful impact in any fight without rendering it impossible to fight into a trapped area. This will also limit the amount of accidental trap spam that's possible. Additional traps can be set once the originals go out.

- Restrict number of traps that can be triggered in any 6 second window or implement some sort of minimum spacing. If all you do is prevent traps from strictly overlapping, I get the feeling that traps will still be subject to packing that's a little too tight.

- Not really a system issue, but make it clear that setting a trap is a hostile action, and should be considered grounds to begin immediate pvp, similar to the guy who begins fullbuffing for a fight right in front of you. This is mostly just a commonsense application of our existing engagement rules, but would clarify in advance that this is the case.

[White_935]

Trap stacking will be disabled already in stage 1, so you won't trigger 5 at once.

Whether this is an effective restriction is going to hinge largely on how it's handled, so simply saying "disabled trap stacking" really doesn't settle concerns. Are you simply going to prevent overlap, or are you going to provide a minimum possible spacing? Is there going to be a restriction on how many traps can be triggered in any window of time, or will the restrictions only be spatial? Are you going to restrict the number of traps a trapsetter may place at once or leave it unrestricted?

For example, a trap stacking restriction that only prevents direct overlap will solve only the problem with the old "instantly take 900 damage from stacked traps" problem, but might still be oppressive.

More generally, I'd flag traps down as one of the least interactive and least enjoyable systems in vanilla NWN. I'm glad to hear that you're aware of some of the issues inherent with the system, but I'd suggest a few additional things:

- Restrict the number of traps any trapper can have out at any given time. 2-3 ought to be enough to make a meaningful impact in any fight without rendering it impossible to fight into a trapped area. This will also limit the amount of accidental trap spam that's possible. Additional traps can be set once the originals go out.

- Restrict number of traps that can be triggered in any 6 second window or implement some sort of minimum spacing. If all you do is prevent traps from strictly overlapping, I get the feeling that traps will still be subject to packing that's a little too tight.

- Not really a system issue, but make it clear that setting a trap is a hostile action, and should be considered grounds to begin immediate pvp, similar to the guy who begins fullbuffing for a fight right in front of you. This is mostly just a commonsense application of our existing engagement rules, but would clarify in advance that this is the case.

I must say i'm against the suggestion your mentioning here

- Restrict the number of traps any trapper can have out at any given time. 2-3 ought to be enough to make a meaningful impact in any fight without rendering it impossible to fight into a trapped area. This will also limit the amount of accidental trap spam that's possible. Additional traps can be set once the originals go out.

- Restrict number of traps that can be triggered in any 6 second window or implement some sort of minimum spacing. If all you do is prevent traps from strictly overlapping, I get the feeling that traps will still be subject to packing that's a little too tight.

These are rather limiting considering how much time and not to mention effort and cost it takes to set up a series of traps.
You have 3/day find trap items on the server, find trap scrolls.. and to disable a trap a creature summon I can disable even a epic trap once discovered.

Limiting the number of traps is rather counteractive to a proper trapper and a wierd artificial limit to add so i certainly hope that won't be the case. I wouldn't even know how to roleplay that "Hey Jhaven put down a trap, there, there and there on these chokepoints" - Jhaven "Uh.. sorry boss.. once i put down two, the third makes my first trap disappear into air.. or it won't trigger.. for some mystical and arcane reason"

Spacing i'm all for, as you can roleplay that one trap would trigger another if put to close, thus countering one another, but limiting the number? that just seems.. like it'll cause rather awkward roleplay and usage.

As for 6 second delay for trigger, that is a long time in a pvp setting, maybe 1-2 seconds to prevent a trap chain... but certainly not 6 seconds.. which is usually 1/3 of a fights duration from the pvp fights i've been in.

I Hope the trap changes are here to balance, and make traps more intuitive as currently its not really viable for use today in pvp. So i hope the changes are not only intended to nerf traps into the ground.

PS: As far as i know, putting down a trap IS a hostile action, as it is just like casting a spell or preparing for combat, it is most commonly in preparation of a hostile action. SO i imagine attacking someone putting down a trap is alright, after all it's taking action to prevent a hostile action.

[DangerDolphin]

What White_935 said basically. There are plenty of ways around traps atm.

If they become a problem I will look into putting limitations on them but there's no need to for now.

[Tarkus the dog]

Are they going to be straight up nerfed?

Asking for a friend.

[DangerDolphin]

No.