The Zhentarim/Banite Update first impressions

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Firstly im going to focus on the good of this update, I feel like what I'm going to write is going to come off as a bit ungrateful, but its far from the truth..


The good:

1. Banite church update. Not much was changed but the changes were absolutely essential. Thank Bane for paper, guards, new NPCs and new lore.

2. The new classes. Ive always felt the harper classes needed a counterpoint. I'm glad we have one and while I havent tested anything yet due to it not being available the classes look good.

3. More prevalence of evil on the surface. This is the big one. The surface has and always should be neutral, more evil representation even secretly shifts us more to balance.




Ok now that this is said. As the leader of the current Zhentarim on the surface, I, and many players of the Zhentarim have huge reservations with how this update was handled from a mechanical, lore, and design perspective.


1. The Zhentarim being a secret society, anyone claiming Zhent status are a splinter group.

This-- frankly is a mac truck slap to the face of about 20 players, whove RPed and worked themselves to the bone to scrape out the small amout of legitimacy they sought to have.

The Zhentarim is a well known mercenary faction of Faerun. Their deeds ar known throughout the world and their members are found in the world.

Yes they have secret sects, yes they have spies. So does Amn.

Durring this timeline according to the faerun lore (1372 as told by thre wiki) the Zhentarim are sitting with a standing army of almosy 30,000. Have a keep called Darkhold on the Swordcoast, admittedly run by a Cyricist who tries to have Zhent leadership assassinated clandestinely. But their holy war doesnt start until well into the 1400s.

The Zhentarim are not a secret society and operate both overtly and covertly. They only begin to operate solet secretly after Zhentil keep is destroyed by an army of giants and dragons.


2. The church updates leave some to be desired. As much as I love the necessary updates. The Church of bane is the smallest guildhouse on the surface. Containing a mere 5 quarters in its secure area, and two in an unsecure perch that is highlighted by a lasso spot allowing people to infiltrate and assassinate its membership. On eof the chief complaints is that the church needs more quarters considering being even rumored (NOW even more so) to be a banite will universally have you evicted from your home. This leaves 13 of my members homeless.

This is not the first time the Banites have been filled in the halls of the church either. And wont be the last time.
If you read anything in this thread at all I implore you that the church needs more rooms.



3 the classes are reskins of harpers: this isnt a bad thing in itself. But the fear speaker has turn undead as a feature. I suggest this be shifted to some form of fear aura to line it up with classes such as the dreadmaster.

Another complaint I hear and see myself is that there are already 3 PnP classes that are bane specific in the PHB. I'm wondering if they were considered at all?


4. The declaration of the splinter group.

This is gonna be on here as just... why?

Why does this even need to be declared to the server at all? This seems like a straight call out and it frankly hurts our feelings.

Perhaps it was not intended as such but all this will do is sew division among the current owners of the church and the inevitable Zhent token class PCs on the way of which I know a few groups are mulling over. This declaration is telling the PCs that the current group in the church doesnt belong. And I'm not the only person whom sees it as such.


What I'm looking to get out of this thread:

-id like clarification as to what the Dev teams goal is with this.

- Why werent current banites consulted on what we may need at the church?

-what is the goal of the lack of quarters for arguably the largest concentration of evil?


-how does this balance out the surface in terms of good vs. Evil?

[Xerah]

This was something that had been in development for months, well before the current group of Zhentarim. A PW has to decide how it wants its lore you progress and can’t be held up because a player group decided to do something similar. This version of the Zhentarim has been decided to be a secret group to mirror the Harpers.

The bane church is not the smallest guild house on the server, most only have 3 inside quarters.

The classes are a reskin by design. I’m not sure what the complaints here are. We don’t want to spend time developing something to only be used by a very limited group.

I’m also not sure what surface balance of good and evil you’re talking about here. We’re going to have people complaining that evil has too much and it’s not fair.

[Drowboy]

Weren't harpers subject to about the same thing? Had to reapply, rebuild to actually get the prereqs in a lot of cases?

[Maladus]

Weren't harpers subject to about the same thing? Had to reapply, rebuild to actually get the prereqs in a lot of cases?

I feel like the feedback is less about this, and more that the update breaks lore that has been roleplayed for a while and goes against what is established in the current lore of 1372.

[Red Ropes]

I am not sure where people are getting this idea that the Zhentarim outside of the Moonsea region are a massive, open, and raging army.

They are not; as of the 1372 take off Fzoul is shakily trying to bring the organization under his control. Manshoon has a "i can do whatever I want card" and Darkhold is still ruled by Cyricists.

Fzoul is the titular leader, there are several minor NPCs conspiring against eachother and the mustachioed menace and of course let us not forget the several Beholders who definitely do not consider themselves subordinates to anyone.

The Zhentarim is not able to project power confidently outside of the Moonsea and into the area that Arelith is.

Arelith is geographically....



...leagues and leagues away from their ability to have those armies there.

Outside of the Moonsea region they act clandestinely. Their mercenary companies do not march under the Banner of the Keep, their merchants have false identities, wizards form secret cabals. They are raiders and thieves and of course /everyone is trying to kill them/ because they're INFAMOUS.

Their "SECRECY" is low in the Moonsea.
Outside of it; it is not.

Of course everyone knows who Fzoul and Manshoon are.

No one is going to know what is happening on the other side of the world.

Comparably the same is for the Harpers. Most of the core Harper cells are about as far. There are Harper Kingdoms and lands where its an open secret.

Outside of that, however, they lay low.

IE; Arelith.

Arelith is far, far from this all, and thus it is expected to be clandestine.

Portals and magic exist but we're also like three or four timezones away from anything of relevance and it does largely rely upon the players.

[TroubledWaters]

This was something that had been in development for months, well before the current group of Zhentarim. A PW has to decide how it wants its lore you progress and can’t be held up because a player group decided to do something similar. This version of the Zhentarim has been decided to be a secret group to mirror the Harpers.

Reading this hurts pretty bad for a lot of us who have played Zhents for the past several months to read. We've put a lot of work into the faction.

IC, it makes perfect sense that a floundering local branch of the Zhentarim gets taken over by better management from a faraway HQ. I'd expect this to happen!

OOC, however, it's a tough pill to swallow that the news is broken to us in a public update instead of RPed out with the current players. We had been operating under the assumption that player actions IC would progress the server lore, and for us to find out that this is not the case OOC along with everybody else instead of IC is causing some sore feelings. By taking something that was an overt faction, the Minmir Zhentarim, and turning it into a secret exclusive society by way of update leaves many of us with the feeling that we are being retconned and none of the work that we have put into Arelith matters.

I hope there is something IC planned to make this transition feel better in-game, thanks for hearing me out.

[Hunter548]

Weren't harpers subject to about the same thing? Had to reapply, rebuild to actually get the prereqs in a lot of cases?

Yes.

[magistrasa]

A PW has to decide how it wants its lore you progress and can’t be held up because a player group decided to do something similar.

"Don't bother trying to interact with and shape the world around you, because the world is just going to go ahead and do whatever the hell it wants anyways."

What a missed opportunity. The team could have gone out of its way to reach out to the currently active Zhentarim players and try to integrate their stories into their plans, working together with the community to create a cohesive and engaging story. The team has to have known how many people this would directly affect. Instead the players just got brushed aside because "this is what the devs wanted." It just doesn't feel like it was the right thing to do.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

So t

A PW has to decide how it wants its lore you progress and can’t be held up because a player group decided to do something similar.

"Don't bother trying to interact with and shape the world around you, because the world is just going to go ahead and do whatever the hell it wants anyways."

We were always at the whim of this. Any one who has been around for any length of time knows that. The idea of "player-driven change" in the world and setting has always been a bit of a fallacy - it's 50/50 at best, and at worst, a bit of luck, a lot of brilliance, and some impressed DMs/Devs.

Players have never been entitled to "consultation." They've never really been entitled to a sneak peak of upcoming changes. When has this ever ever been a thing?

I do think all current 'Zhentarim' players should be given the option for a rebuild into this new PrC, but besides that, you're at the whim of the server.

You always have been.

[The GrumpyCat]

Haya!

So you know - You guys bring up some excellent points!
And we very much sympathise with your situation.
We are now discussing what we can do to make it a bit easier on your rp. We'll try and keep you posted in some way shape or form.

[Inordinate]

We were always at the whim of this. Any one who has been around for any length of time knows that. The idea of "player-driven change" in the world and setting has always been a bit of a fallacy - it's 50/50 at best, and at worst, a bit of luck, a lot of brilliance, and some impressed DMs/Devs.

Players have never been entitled to "consultation." They've never really been entitled to a sneak peak of upcoming changes. When has this ever ever been a thing?

I do think all current 'Zhentarim' players should be given the option for a rebuild into this new PrC, but besides that, you're at the whim of the server.

You always have been.

Just because it always has been one way does not mean it is the best or right way to do it. This is a Feedback subforum for a reason.

[Inf]

I am not sure where people are getting this idea that the Zhentarim outside of the Moonsea region are a massive, open, and raging army.

You're being disingenuous here.

The change is that Zhentarim are now retroactively an explicitly secret organization in Arelith. As you said in your post, they have a lot of elements that aren't that. So it's plausible that someone could be from that group on the island.

I echo magistrasa's sentiments. There should've been some effort to reach out and clarify this change to existing players. I'm glad that's being considered now.

[fading]

The secrecy angle feels a little weird to me, seeing as the Church of Bane is a very out in the open HQ, and the current Banites (and most Banites in the history of Arelith) have often been pretty open about their allegiance and faith.

I'm not entirely sure how they're meant to be secretive, and make us of the Church, and involve themselves with Banite RPers who aren't Zhentarim (or not officially anyway). Maybe I just lack vision in the matter, but it just feels.. off?

Like, what happens if they choose not to be secretive, are they bound for permadeath like Harpers? Does this extend to the current Bane-worshipping playerbase?

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I feel I should clarify



This update was fine. Our lore and RP have been crushed.

The Zhentarim in 1372 were strong after rebuilding in 1370.

They were so strong infact it required an army of frost giants to destroy their capital in a very controversial move by WoTC


If thw Zhentarim had made any interest moves enough to send spies to arelith they would have also had soldiers.

Redropes assertion frankly doesnt mesh with indirect lore od the Zhentarim.

Pereghost was a cyric worshipper. Yes. His plans involved assassinations. But he was still under the thumb of Zhentil because if he wasnt secretive he wouls have been destroyed quickly.

Darkhold was still a part of the Zhentarim until far into the cyric/bane holy war.



And on top of this Arleith lore as far as I or anyone I know has been told is that while no events have happened time is still spinning on. So was bane ressurected yesterday or 168 years ago? If 168 years or so then a branching timeline would make the assertion that the rest of the world is spinning on. Your telling me the Zhentarim havent rebuilt Zhentil keep in 168 years?

[Hunter548]

The secrecy angle feels a little weird to me, seeing as the Church of Bane is a very out in the open HQ, and the current Banites (and most Banites in the history of Arelith) have often been pretty open about their allegiance and faith.

I'm not entirely sure how they're meant to be secretive, and make us of the Church, and involve themselves with Banite RPers who aren't Zhentarim (or not officially anyway). Maybe I just lack vision in the matter, but it just feels.. off?

Like, what happens if they choose not to be secretive, are they bound for permadeath like Harpers? Does this extend to the current Bane-worshipping playerbase?

Zhentarim aren't always or inherently Banites. Not all Banites are Zhentarim affiliated, either.

[Xerah]

A PW has to decide how it wants its lore you progress and can’t be held up because a player group decided to do something similar.

"Don't bother trying to interact with and shape the world around you, because the world is just going to go ahead and do whatever the hell it wants anyways."

That’s awfully rude.

Where is the line? What if I’m playing a character who does X and X gets changed? Do I get to make the same complaints as a solo person? This is just the process of development.

Sometimes, yes, players can be involved. Sometimes they aren’t. That’s how it’s always been. As developers, we don’t have the option to do stuff in game personally since most of us are not DMs. Sometimes the idea may be of interest to DMs and they run with it and that’s great when it can happen (so nice to see some potentially occurring). We also can’t force DM to tell stories that they’re not interested in.

You can still be your splinter faction. You could also rebrand as Darrowdeep did. You could ask for a relevel to try to get into the new one. Lots of options and I’m sorry if it did not go the exact way you wanted

[fading]

The secrecy angle feels a little weird to me, seeing as the Church of Bane is a very out in the open HQ, and the current Banites (and most Banites in the history of Arelith) have often been pretty open about their allegiance and faith.

I'm not entirely sure how they're meant to be secretive, and make us of the Church, and involve themselves with Banite RPers who aren't Zhentarim (or not officially anyway). Maybe I just lack vision in the matter, but it just feels.. off?

Like, what happens if they choose not to be secretive, are they bound for permadeath like Harpers? Does this extend to the current Bane-worshipping playerbase?

Zhentarim aren't always or inherently Banites. Not all Banites are Zhentarim affiliated, either.

Right, I don't see the relevance of that? Zhentarim are mostly Banites, the classes has Bane written all over it. I don't.. I don't understand what that has to do with what I wrote, sorry.

[Hunter548]

The secrecy angle feels a little weird to me, seeing as the Church of Bane is a very out in the open HQ, and the current Banites (and most Banites in the history of Arelith) have often been pretty open about their allegiance and faith.

I'm not entirely sure how they're meant to be secretive, and make us of the Church, and involve themselves with Banite RPers who aren't Zhentarim (or not officially anyway). Maybe I just lack vision in the matter, but it just feels.. off?

Like, what happens if they choose not to be secretive, are they bound for permadeath like Harpers? Does this extend to the current Bane-worshipping playerbase?

Zhentarim aren't always or inherently Banites. Not all Banites are Zhentarim affiliated, either.

Right, I don't see the relevance of that? Zhentarim are mostly Banites, the classes has Bane written all over it. I don't.. I don't understand what that has to do with what I wrote, sorry.

My point is:

1) Just because people are open about being Banites doesn't mean Zhentarim agents should/must/will be open about being Zhentarim agents.
2) It's distinctly possible to be a Zhent who isn't a Banite, or isn't particularly fond of them: this guy, for example, or someone else Darkhold-associated, so Banite attitudes aren't inherently relevant to Zhentarim characters even if a lot of people who have played Zhents have also been Banites
3) The classes aren't inherently Banite, and don't have anything that leans or connects to Bane aside from the name of the priest-equivalent (And Banites certainly don't have a sole monopoly on fear).

[TimeAdept]

A PW has to decide how it wants its lore you progress and can’t be held up because a player group decided to do something similar.

"Don't bother trying to interact with and shape the world around you, because the world is just going to go ahead and do whatever the hell it wants anyways."

What a missed opportunity. The team could have gone out of its way to reach out to the currently active Zhentarim players and try to integrate their stories into their plans, working together with the community to create a cohesive and engaging story. The team has to have known how many people this would directly affect. Instead the players just got brushed aside because "this is what the devs wanted." It just doesn't feel like it was the right thing to do.

[magistrasa]

As developers, we don’t have the option to do stuff in game personally since most of us are not DMs. Sometimes the idea may be of interest to DMs and they run with it and that’s great when it can happen (so nice to see some potentially occurring). We also can’t force DM to tell stories that they’re not interested in.

Were the DMs made aware of the fact that this update was going in? Were they even given the option to make an event out of this? Did anyone on the team think of the players this change would affect and discuss how things could be made better for them?

It sounds like you're just shifting the blame to the DMs, instead of the far more likely explanation - the admins were excited about having finished a brand new major update and rushed to get it onto the server as quickly as possible. You're acting like there simply wasn't a choice but to roll the change out the way it is, and treating this like roleplay is simply the price of progress. It shouldn't be. We're a roleplay server. Every new feature should be made in service to roleplay. Instead, we're seeing player-driven narrative stepped on and player agency stepped over. I'm sure this wasn't done out of spite, but simply innocent oversight, and eagerness to breathe life into a facet of lore that has historically been neglected on the server.

We need to acknowledge the fact that this could have been handled better, so that we can strive to do better in the future.

Don't call me rude for saying so.

[Irongron]

Okay, time to clarify a few things.

First off, the classes were in development since 2019, there have been many Zhent PCs over the years on Arelith, and as we add in speicific areas for the Zhentarim it has been our intention to use some of them as NPC leaders.

Secondly, no, I do not agree we could of handled this 'better', and here is why;

We have no content to offer existing Zhent characters, just as we didn't for Harpers when those classes went in. What this update is, at its core, are some new classes, supported from 'Zhent HQ', albeit at a distance, just as the High Harpers essentially lie behind those PRCs.

So far from Zhentil Keep the Zhentarim are of course a rather splintered organization, and the existing group, if they took time not to take this OOC may find, over the coming months they receive a good portion of DM attention, and become involved in Zhentarim plots stemming from the Moonsea, but the time for that is in the future, not with the launch of an update, with which nothing has actually changed on the isle..

The reason the update stated they were a 'splinter' organisation, really quite practical, and the same reason we couldn't allow 'anyone that wished to be' access to the Harper content, and it's really very simple. We can't introduce 'secret' content and have it immediately revealed to everyone. This is why Harpers require approval from DMs, and must agree, both IC and OOC not to undermine that content by revealing members and secrets. I and the other area/NPC builders are not able to invest weeks and months of work on such content, only to have it blown wide-open in the first few days. That is why non-Harper PRCs don't get access to the Harper content, and that is why non-Zhent PRC won't get access to theirs.

Beyond that, name your character's faction what you please, and whatever concept you please, but if your chosen organisation is one that exists, canonically, on the Forgotten Realms, you simply cannot expect to exist in a bubble, and not have that come back on you in some way.

Nobody's roleplay is undermined by being considered a local faction/splinter, I hope, in fact, that's how you've always been playing it, rather than claiming the authority of a Moonsea superpower on your PC.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Irongron what you and some others have said to me via other means I now understand and the Zhentarim guild is fully supportive of whats going on.


Thank you for clarifying in about 17 different ways. Its appreciated more than you know


Id consider this thread ended basically before it starts getting any more out of hand. Thank you.

Its never my intention to drum up drama at this point in my life.

[Irongron]

Irongron what you and some others have said to me via other means I now understand and the Zhentarim guild is fully supportive of whats going on.


Thank you for clarifying in about 17 different ways. Its appreciated more than you know


Id consider this thread ended basically before it starts getting any more out of hand. Thank you.

Its never my intention to drum up drama at this point in my life.

Thanks for the understanding, and I must apologize - my orginal note on the update thread was really too blunt, and easily misunderstood as seeking to invalidate your RP. I have since edited it for clarity; The Zhentarim PRCs represent the 'Secret Society' content (Black Network out of Zhentil Keep), and existing Zhents (Mercenaries for the most part) will not be recognized mechanically by the new agent NPCs - they require a token.

We will likely offer rebuilds to existing Zhents that successfully apply for the agent class, but as they haven't actually been RPing as secret agents, I rather suspect that will undermine their existing RP, rather than reinforcing it.

While I didn't work on this update directly, I was very much pushing for Zhent classes for some time. Last year I was really honoured to actually make some official FR content, the crowning glory of which was building the actual Zhentil Keep for Tyrant's of the Moonsea. We had a lot of placeables and items made too, shields, flags, banners with the Zhentarim logo, which are already live on the development build of NWN. Such paraphernalia will be little use to Zhentarim agents, but I suspect we will be warmly welcomed by groups such as yours.