Harper Nerf feedback

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Post Reply
not a harper btw
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:54 pm

Harper Nerf feedback

Post by not a harper btw » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:26 pm

So, harper nerfs got announced today (As far as I know, they're just on the PGCC currently?).

1) I'm not sure harper priest needs the nerf of lose of tumble. Because their bonus feat list is so terrible for builds that aren't caster cleric (And because the class itself doesn't lend itself well to caster builds, you tend to build either as a battle cleric or slot into an abj paladin build), you end up more or less feat neutral currently, between the two pre-req feats and missing an epic bonus feat by taking it. Meanwhile, the benefits you get from it aren't much to write home for; Planar turning is a joke. Armor skin is good, but you could spend your missing epic bonus feat on it. Extend spell is good, but you could spend one of your two pre-epic feats on it.

As it stands, the builds that take harper priest can't really stomach dropping tumble to 3 AC, so they need to take a tumble dip to adjust whenever this goes live. This means that if they go, for example, 22 (cleric/paladin)/5 priest/3 (tumble dip), they end up feat negative compared to the non-harper versions, and probably worse. It's strange to make what's effectively a roleplay choice make you worse (or better) than the alternative.


2) Paragon, on the other hand, is the opposite paradigm. They do probably need a nerf - but I don't think nerfing tumble is the way to do it. The biggest mechanical benefit of Paragon is not needing to take 13 strength for a dex character to get divine feats. This aspect of paragon isn't touched in the slightest. Strength paragon builds meanwhile don't get as much benefit from paragon over paladin. These are also, with the exception of bard/paragon (who gets tumble anyways), the most hurt by this nerf. Divine rogue harpers are still just as good, and they, harper archers, and harper/spellsword are the strongest builds with paragon.

To more effectively nerf paragon, it should either a) Not give you divine might/shield for free, but instead have them as bonus feats (so you still need to have power attack), or b) Not give bonus feats. Either option makes it less of a direct upgrade for the most egregious builds over paladin or blackguard.

User avatar
Scurvy Cur
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:48 am

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by Scurvy Cur » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:50 pm

One thing to bear in mind (and this applies with equal force to the zhent classes which ought be a 1:1 mirror of their harper counterparts) is that there is a feat cost on top of the alertness/iron will requirements, at least for most builds, because taking the dip will usually cost you 1 and sometimes 2 feats from lost epic class progression when compared against builds that can be achieved with no dip or with a 3 class level dip. For example:

Bard Paragon has 2 builds atm that are pretty solid (20-21 bard/5 para/4-5 fighter; 25 bard/5 para). These match most closely with (23 bard/4 fighter/3 pal or bg; 26 bard/4 pal or bg. edit: someone also brought up 21 bard/6 fighter/3 pal to maximize pre epic AB, it works, I can see why you'd want to, but I'm not sure I would.)

Bard Paragon without fighter dip in the current PGCC Iteration, compared against 26/4:
- Buys alertness
- Buys iron will
- Buys Heavy Armor Prof
- Loses Bard 26 Bonus Feat
- No martial prof (spear's not a bad weapon, but since you can't halberd swap without martial prof, this is probably going to be a little worse than 1h edge)
- No paladin itemization options/BG poison use
+ Gets to not buy power attack
+ Div might for free
+ Div shield for free

Box Score: 1 feat down, weapon choice a little awkward, niche perks not quite as good as RH ring or eyeblast poison.

Bard Paragon with fighter dip in the current PGCC Iteration:
- Buys alertness
- Buys iron will
- Loses Bard 23 Bonus Feat
- No paladin itemization options/BG poison use
- 2 CL down vs the 23/4/3 build.
+ Gets to not buy power attack
+ Div might for free
+ Div shield for free

Box Score: Feats neutral, CL down by 2 probably, worse niche perks.

The key in both cases is that going to 5 levels in the harper class costs a lost epic bonus feat in addition to the up front feat cost. So even when the class looks feat neutral on paper (alertness/iron will traded for div might/div shield) it comes out behind on opportunity cost.

The same holds true for the paladin/hpreist build, which is a direct comparison to 27/3 paladin. I think the new arrangement for pal/hp is pal 22/hp 5/rogue 3 since the build really cannot afford the 3 AC lost with the tumble change.

HPriest build vs 27/3 paladin:
- Buys alertness
- Buys iron will
- Loses Paladin 26 Feat
- Loses Paladin 23 Feat
+ Free Level 1 Feat
+ Free Level 5 Feat
+ Free Armor Skin
+ Extend Spell
+ Planar Turning ????

Box Score: Down 1 useful feat in exchange for planar turning + Extend. Extend is ok, but I'm deeply ambivalent about it on a paladin. Planar Turning is a meme.

For a cleric Hpriest, the comparative builds are probably going to be: cleric 25/hpriest 5 vs. pure sanc cleric, cleric 27/bard 3, or cleric 27/monk 3 on the caster front, and 22 cleric/ 5 hp/ 3 rogue vs 27 cleric/3 bard on the battlecleric side.

25/5 Caster Comparison:
- Buys alertness
- Buys iron will
- Loses Cleric 26 Feat
- Loses Cleric 29 Feat OR 3 AC from tumble OR Monk AC + Tumble AC
+ Free Level 1 Feat
+ Free Level 5 Feat
+ Extend Spell
+ Free Armor Skin??
+ Planar Turning ????

Box Score: This is the messiest box score due to the number of comparable and viable variants. Depending on the comparison, either trades 2 feat into 1 feat it probably wanted anyway (extend spell) 1 ok-but-not great feat (armor skin) and one useless feat (planar turning), trades 3 AC from tumble for [extend, armor skin and planar turning] (for those doing the math at home, that's a 1 AC for extend trade), or trades monk AC and 3 tumble AC for [extend, armor skin and planar turning]. These trades all feel somewhat bad to me.

22/5/3 Bcleric Comparison:
- Buys alertness
- Buys iron will
- Loses Cleric 23 Feat
- Loses Cleric 26 Feat
+ Free Level 1 Feat
+ Free Level 5 Feat
+ Extend Spell
+ Free Armor Skin
+ Planar Turning ????

Box Score: Easier this time. The two builds are functionally feat neutral. Armor skin is a categorically fine pickup here, you were going to take that anyway on a Battlecleric. Same with extend spell. Planar Turning is still a meme though, so you're basically up 4 good feats and down alertness, iron will, and the 2 cleric bonus feats.

As the non-harper OP previously mentioned, Harper Priest in its past iteration felt basically fine. You functionally trade evasion for CL progression and otherwise remain neutral on feats/other abilities.

Compounding the issue, also described above, is that the priest feat list is very mediocre for anything other than a caster cleric (or shaman/fvs maybe, not sure where these two classes sit): [armor skin, automatic quicken spell, automatic silent spell, automatic still spell, epic spell focus, epic spell penetration, great wisdom, greater spell focus, improved combat casting, planar turning, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Extra Turning, Favored Enemy, Greater Spell Focus, Turn Undead] (note, I've stricken armor skin and planar turning because the class gets those for free anyway. I've stricken auto still spell because it is useless to a divine spellcaster, and I've stricken improved combat casting because the feat is redundant to any spellcaster with a final concentration score of 27 or greater, which is just about all of them past level 18 or so).

The consequence of the above, then, is that HPriest at present winds up feat neutral for all the builds that want to take it, but at least 1 and sometimes 2 of the feats they get in exchange will be something they don't really want.

Meanwhile, Paragon remains VERY GOOD for anything dex/div oriented, because it still permits these builds to function on 8 or even 6 strength, thus allowing them to have either more dex, more con, or more cha, due to spending 5 fewer build points on strength during character creation (8 fewer if halfling).

In fact, the current changes have barely scuffed the paint on the single worst paragon offender out there: the halfling ranger/fighter/paragon.


Concrete suggestions:
- Revert Tumble on Hpriest/Zhent equivalent, the class feels sort of flat without it, and I don't think it was that problematic to begin with.
- If we're committed to the no-tumble route, do something to replace planar turning with a useful feat or make planar turning useful.
- Reconsider the direction of Paragon/Enforcer changes. Restore 1-2 of the bonus feats, restore tumble as a class skill, but make power attack a requirement in addition to Iron Will/Alertness.


User avatar
Irongron
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Posts: 4666
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by Irongron » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Feedback is what PGCC is for, and I know I speak for everyone that worked on this that posts such as the above by Scurvy are greatly appreciated.

Nothing is set in stone here (yet).

Seven Sons of Sin
Posts: 2184
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:40 am

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:53 pm

The tumble removal on Harper Priest/Zhentarim feels fine, and would be fine, if the dead levels of level 2 (+3 Turning level) and level 3 (Planar Turning) were more interesting/fun. I think this goes all the back to Peppermint's suggestion on them.

Also, the "raise piety via 6 aspects" is pretty boring considering clerics get such bonker piety raises anyways. Maybe that's more useful for the Hpriest-paladins.

And are the Zhentarim getting a capstone ability of ballot-stuffing like Harpers? This is a little off-topic, but that felt like an oversight. Or maybe I missed something in the patch notes.
Previous:
Oskarr of Procampur, Ro Irokon, Nahal Azyen, Nelehein Afsana (of Impiltur), Vencenti Medici, Nizram ali Balazdam, (Roznik) Naethandreil

User avatar
garrbear758
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 am

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:04 pm

I'm definitely open to giving priest something else or improving their bonus feat list, but the fact should also be brought up that priest / paladin can make you 100% immune to dispels with no drawbacks.

Additionally, bard isn't a good class to pair paragon with, but 25 fighter is, or fighter wm, or fighter cot, or literally any combination of 2 classes that don't have tumble and would want a divine dip. Post nerf, paragon is still going to be 1 feat ahead since they do not have power attack.

The reason we didn't remove power attack is because it will completely break peoples builds.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

Wrips
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:06 am

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by Wrips » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:31 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:04 pm
Additionally, bard isn't a good class to pair paragon with, but 25 fighter is, or fighter wm, or fighter cot, or literally any combination of 2 classes that don't have tumble and would want a divine dip. Post nerf, paragon is still going to be 1 feat ahead since they do not have power attack.
Removing Tumble from paragon significantly affects STR based builds (like Fighter/HP/CoT), while DEX builds, that already are well placed in the meta, are unaffected (Swash 10/HP 5/CoT 15, for exemple); they can still schew Power Attack and 13 STR to further boost DEX and CHA. In fact there isn't much difference regarding damage between (Fighter 10/HP 5/CoT 15) and it's DEX Swash counterpart, while DEX variant gets +6 AC - and that's counting Tumble as class skill and using 13 STR starting STR!

Fighter WM Paragon needs to invest in CHA to make it worthwhile and it's going to cost STR, that is, there's a counterpoint to the dip.

Fighter 25/HP 5 is the only one that actually compares well to their non Harper variant (the 24/3/3 F/BG or Pal/Rg), getting +3 AC in exchange to Evasion but losing poison access or fear immunity and Taunt. The AB is often neglected because brycers often invest in UMD for a +4 weapon, so it evens out. This is comparison, however, is mostly a result of the particularity of the fighter bonus progression and not by Harper Paragon having Tumble access.
The reason we didn't remove power attack is because it will completely break peoples builds.
Being able to avoid going 13 STR for Power Attack is the main reason Harper Paragon is a very strong class. Tumble is just the icing in the cake but both Swash and Rogue have that.

TL;DR Removing Tumble from Harper Paragon hurts STR based characters while doing nothing to the DEX variants - that are already superior to their STR counterparts before the Tumble removal. Build diversity reduced.

TooManyPotatoes
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:14 pm

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:06 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:04 pm
I'm definitely open to giving priest something else or improving their bonus feat list, but the fact should also be brought up that priest / paladin can make you 100% immune to dispels with no drawbacks.
Harper priests getting 30cl vs dispel AND tumble always felt bonkers to me. That dispel resistance is very significant. We have clerics running around who commited 2 feats (abj focus and def) just to get caster lvl 29 and tumble just because being dispel resistant is that important to clerics esp the battleclerics.

Im glad to see that they are back in line with what every other cleric/favoured build has to seriously consider. Before now they made the smallest of trade offs relative to everyone else.

With that said, if the change to tumble goes ahead (and i think it should) they probably do need a slight buff/change to distinquish them from everyone else.

One could consider keeping tumble and giving them the ecl buff only on odd or even levels? That way they hit ecl 27-28 with buffs and get tumble which still makes them better than everyone else but not to such a ridiculous degree.

User avatar
garrbear758
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 am

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:19 am

TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:06 am
garrbear758 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:04 pm
I'm definitely open to giving priest something else or improving their bonus feat list, but the fact should also be brought up that priest / paladin can make you 100% immune to dispels with no drawbacks.
Harper priests getting 30cl vs dispel AND tumble always felt bonkers to me. That dispel resistance is very significant. We have clerics running around who commited 2 feats (abj focus and def) just to get caster lvl 29 and tumble just because being dispel resistant is that important to clerics esp the battleclerics.

Im glad to see that they are back in line with what every other cleric/favoured build has to seriously consider. Before now they made the smallest of trade offs relative to everyone else.

With that said, if the change to tumble goes ahead (and i think it should) they probably do need a slight buff/change to distinquish them from everyone else.

One could consider keeping tumble and giving them the ecl buff only on odd or even levels? That way they hit ecl 27-28 with buffs and get tumble which still makes them better than everyone else but not to such a ridiculous degree.
That was announced already earlier today. They got tumble back, but paladin / priest only gets +3 CL vs dispels instead of +5.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

the grim yeeter
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:47 pm

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:51 am

Happy with (most of) the Harper changes. The paladin/hpriest dispel CL nerf is a tad strange and could've been done differently (why not just remove the +3 CL paladins get, instead of adding another one of these weird rules/formulas?). But the rest of it I love, especially the paragon change. Paragons need to be brought as close to paladins/blackguards as possible, mechanically, and that's what is happening now. Good. It could've happened a bit sooner, but better late than never. Well done.

Scurvy's post above matches 1:1 with how I think about it.
Last edited by the grim yeeter on Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sockss wrote: There is an overriding premise that all changes should be appreciated and welcomed because someone has taken time out for free to make them. [...] I don't believe volunteering should put your work above criticism [...] .

TooManyPotatoes
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:14 pm

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:10 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:19 am
TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:06 am
garrbear758 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:04 pm
I'm definitely open to giving priest something else or improving their bonus feat list, but the fact should also be brought up that priest / paladin can make you 100% immune to dispels with no drawbacks.
Harper priests getting 30cl vs dispel AND tumble always felt bonkers to me. That dispel resistance is very significant. We have clerics running around who commited 2 feats (abj focus and def) just to get caster lvl 29 and tumble just because being dispel resistant is that important to clerics esp the battleclerics.

Im glad to see that they are back in line with what every other cleric/favoured build has to seriously consider. Before now they made the smallest of trade offs relative to everyone else.

With that said, if the change to tumble goes ahead (and i think it should) they probably do need a slight buff/change to distinquish them from everyone else.

One could consider keeping tumble and giving them the ecl buff only on odd or even levels? That way they hit ecl 27-28 with buffs and get tumble which still makes them better than everyone else but not to such a ridiculous degree.
That was announced already earlier today. They got tumble back, but paladin / priest only gets +3 CL vs dispels instead of +5.
Ha, missed that.
I dont really follow why the team would apply it to paladins but not across the board though. Am the only one who thinks battleclerics/fs are too strong with 30 cl and tumble?

With the changes to umd and lore, harpers priest clerics/fs have only gotten stronger relative to their non harper counter parts. One of the few trade offs they got for all their bonuses was that they couldnt use scrolls/wands that werent cleric. Now they can use the scrolls, and theres few non-divine wands that you really care about.

Edit: Given recent negativity, ill add that i love you all and really appreciate the team looking into this (even if the result doesnt line up with my own thoughts) and the work you continue to do. You dont get enough thanks.

User avatar
garrbear758
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 am

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:29 am

the grim yeeter wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:51 am
instead of adding another one of these weird rules/formulas
Thank you for keeping me in check with this. Seriously. I'll talk with the team about a more consistent option.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

Quidix
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 399
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:49 pm

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by Quidix » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:24 am

I do very much like the updated Harper changes after the most recent iteration - in particular the Harper Paragon change is well needed to avoid the dex-divine builds dumping strength. Thank you.

Overall, we now feel close where the Harper classes are 'competitive and nice RP options' rather than 'mechanical powerhouses'. This is great.

The one Harper class that remains is the Master Harper, which I think has been untouched for a time given its niche position (but in its niche it is very strong):
  • Net 4 feats - spend 2 non-epic feats to gain 6 feats: 2 open epic feats, 2 specific epic feats (ESF Lore, ESF Perform) and 2 specific non-epic feats (SF Lore, SF Perform)
  • A unique ability for infinite usage of song (which is strong and attractive for any high-level bard using curse song; and a fantastic QoL for a bard)
  • Suggestion: Remove infinite song and 1 non-epic feat (eg SF Perform) - alternatively, keep infinite song, but give it for free to lvl 28 bards

the grim yeeter
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:47 pm

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:47 am

Quidix wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:24 am
...
Agreed. Currently, taking MH over more bard levels is always better. For example, 21bard/4paladin/5MH > 26bard/4paladin. This initially was not the case, but with the lore update, both the (epic) skill foci in perform and lore are actually mechanically beneficial. So MH could definitely use some tweaking there.

Additionally, on the topic of removing mechanical power from alignments/factions (and I have said it multiple times before), paladin dips are still mechanically way ahead compared to blackguard dips, owing to (among other reasons that don't come up at the moment): the RH ring, paladin chainmail, access to divine wands, fear immunity. I think that could be given some looking at (especially the RH ring, which really is just too strong. Nerfing that would do a lot of good on its own already).

Blackguard dips would have been somewhat on par if the beast belt didn't get nerfed, and if their bull's strength cast didn't get turned into worthless garbage back then.
Sockss wrote: There is an overriding premise that all changes should be appreciated and welcomed because someone has taken time out for free to make them. [...] I don't believe volunteering should put your work above criticism [...] .

Seven Sons of Sin
Posts: 2184
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:40 am

Re: Harper Nerf feedback

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:43 pm

It always seemed very strange that Blackguards are not treated as a divine class. I think they should be, letting them have access to wands. I mean, almost all of them Divine Might/Shield anyways.
Previous:
Oskarr of Procampur, Ro Irokon, Nahal Azyen, Nelehein Afsana (of Impiltur), Vencenti Medici, Nizram ali Balazdam, (Roznik) Naethandreil

Post Reply