Loremaster Feedback Megathread

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Tathkar Eisgrim
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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:10 am

I'd love to take this on my wizard. To be a delver into secrets of the body & arcane.

I think herein lies an issue: the concept of LORE is quite broad. Lore (and Secrets) can mean different things to different concepts.

The Lore and Secret concept is a great one -- it just needs to be categorized -- to allow a broad church of concepts, whilst allowing a Loremaster to possibly specialize. In that sense, they are a cousin to the Specialist?

Perhaps suggestions need to be taken for Lore / Secret categories?

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Jagel » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:37 am

I could see a fun swashbuckler/loremaster combo.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by SkipiusEsq » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:48 pm

I can see this class being a fun combination to a mundane, especially a rogue, to give them a stronger ability to use magic. I make a few suggestions only because it seems like the class is a work in progress so any suggestions might prompt thoughts to improve.

Lore skill: Since this is a LOREmaster, how about getting Skill Focus: Lore at 5 and Epic Skill Focus: Lore at 10. With 10 levels, and assuming 16 INT and 33 points in lore at level 30, the character would have a total lore of 59. That would still require some devotion in gear to get to the level 8 and level 9 spells. Of course, that comes at the sacrifice of taking 10 levels of this class, foregoing benefits of other classes.

Secrets
(1) Copy Scrolls: The loremaster has the ability to meticulously copy a scroll in his or her possession. They would only be able to copy spells that they otherwise can cast (i.e., high enough lore) and it has the same cost as a wizard or cleric making the scroll (i.e., xp and gp). Maybe some spells (e.g., G. Resto.) are not copyable.
(2) Focused Craft: The loremaster adds his lore score/5 (or /10) to a trade skill of his or her choice.
(3) Complex Mechanisms and Tumblers: The loremaster adds his lore score /5 (or /10) to open locks and disable traps.
(4) Secret Places: The loremaster has an increased chance based on class level to find a better item in chests (if possible with the RNG)
(5) Ancient Runes: The loremaster rolls again on a failed dweomercrafting attempt (not at an increased chance, so a 5% is a second chance at a 5%).

I think the less "magical" and more "studied" the secrets are, the more fitting it is with the class. Perhaps secrets can be added for class specific things, such as:
(6) Netherese History: The loremaster's class level is added to the castor level of the highest-level spell-castor class (e.g., a Wizard 20 / Loremaster 10 would have a Wizard CL of 30)
(7) Focused Swordcraft: The loremaster receives a +1 AB to a weapon for which the character has weapon focus. This Secret may be taken multiple times for a stacking of AB (up to a maximum of +3AB) - this seems powerful but it comes at the sacrifice of not getting any epic levels in the fighting class, which carries its own sacrifices.
(8) Ancient Chords: The loremaster's class level is added to the bard level for purposes of bard song.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Nevrus » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:30 pm

Skipius' suggestions are great. The biggest problem with the class right now is a lack of integration into other classes except Rogue. Creating secrets themed around the various classes that it can hook into which enable it to contribute to the power and fantasy is a great way to solve this; one of your three secrets is spent on making the class interactive, whereas you can forego that for a better secret anyway.

I'd suggest some more secrets along this line:
Obscure Anatomy - The character receives +2d6 bonus sneak attack damage. This can be taken multiple times up to +6d6.
Forgotten Prayers - The character's loremaster level is added to their effective level for Turn Undead.
Survival Treatises - The loremaster receives the ability to read tracks, like a ranger. If they have this ability, their loremaster level is added to the effective level for determining information about the tracks.
Read the Wind - The loremaster can use the -track command to determine what creatures are in the area. Additionally, they are alerted if they are scried upon.
Death's Door Accounts - The loremaster has studied numerous accounts of those who have survived fatal injuries by a hair's breadth. They receive the Defensive Roll feat.
Horizon Walking - The loremaster understands where the fabric of the planes intersects. Once per day they can activate the effect of an Attunement Potion.

This makes it versatile and intriguing. +2 to saves is really underwhelming as a bonus, but these offer synergy and can potentially walk around class requirements to get access to certain role-play beneficial mechanics, or offer a more exciting form of power that has positive combat implications in exchange for losing out on the other benefits.
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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by TimeAdept » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:52 pm

Right now the only thing I'd use this for is anywhere from 3-5 levels as a dip in epic to get +1 AB, better scroll lore, and better scrolls. The languages would just be a random RP bonus.

It exists. It's a class. It'd get used. But it doesn't do very much besides "language". Definitely erred on the underpowered side for safety here, but secrets could be vastly overhauled. Many great suggestions have already been posted.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:03 pm

I don't think a Loremaster is necessarily the master of what they discover. Part of the allure, like a rogue opening a treasure chest, is being surprised by the result of the discovery? Also, their gains are not merely an idea or an ability, but an ability or lore, manifest. An item of value which can be hidden, shared, stolen, etc.

Maybe our starting place should be: a Loremaster is like Indiana or Henry Jones.

Henry Jones is a Grail lore specialist. He has in his possession a physical clue: a rare text obtained from Oxford's library. It gives him a physical clue. So he goes to a church in Campo San Barnaba, Venice. He gets another physical clue. It leads him to Petra, Jordan. He finds the grail -- but more importantly has his faith reaffirmed at the edge of death.

The basis of these loremasters are:

* Research leads to a clue. A trail of clues lead to a discovery.
* The discovery is a concept manifested.
* The concept manifested is sought after and fought over.

I would suggest we need a loremaster lore & secret system based around discovering and rediscovering clue trails, so our PC's can hit the same story beats as Indy does.

* Categorize Research Fields:

- Arcane.
- Divine.
- Martial Prowess.
- Qi & Medicine.
- Social Subterfuge (Electoral).

- Manifests.

Arcane: School specific spell ingredients, Alternative name spell scrolls, etc.
Divine: Reliquaries, Ossuaries, etc.
Martial Prowess: Training manuals, racial smelting techniques, sword-art and stance techniques, etc.
Qi and Medicine: Kata manuals, Apothecary texts, ancient shaman & druidic rites, etc.
Social Subterfuge: Secrets of the Nobility, Secrets of the Guilds, Blackmail evidences, etc.


I think it is more important to design the system to hit the right and intended story beats, as an aid to roleplay, as opposed to defining the class as a strict list of class abilities.

It is also important to imagine the Loremaster culturally. A Rashemi Loremaster, a Mulhorandi loremaster, a Kara Turan Loremaster, a Harper or Zhentarim Loremaster, or even a pipe-smoking loremaster from Shadowdale.

Imagine this:

A PC Loremaster discovers his first clue. The clue points towards a location. The PC loremaster now has the choice to privately or publically, solely or in a group investigate the location. Maybe he will take his close faction friends. Maybe he will hire adventurers. Maybe their conversation is overheard or scryed. Roleplay ensues.

As the group reaches the location, the loremaster searches and researches through bookshelves and chests. Because he holds the clue and is good at it.

...but as he finds this next clue, the big bad PC faction is stood behind him -- and steals the next clue!

I want to play *this* Loremaster.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:03 am

I'm thinking about how to make this a bit more mechanically competitive, or in other words, less taxing in power to have these languages, and one thing that comes to mind is to add more Secret Knowledge feats, and earlier. Something like.. at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 instead of just 3, 9, 6. This opens 23/4/3 combinations (with the 3 lvl dip being something with discipline/tumble or both) as they can take +1 ab and +1 dodge ac in those 4 lvls and it's then at least somewhat comparable to other options. It still wouldnt be the best 4 lvl investment power-wise, to any build at all so people who would go for this would still do it for the Scrolls/langauges aspects.
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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Gee look who » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:10 am

The way I'm seeing, wizards (the appropriate takers of this prc in pnp), wouldn't be able to take it, as it doesn't give caster levels.

Others that could want to (like my imp tf sorcerer), wouldn't eighter.

Maybe put some +caster levels in it, or give it as a secret.
Also, more secrets...

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:02 am

Announcements wrote: Level 1 - Loremaster's Knowledge, Scroll Mastery I
Level 2 -
Level 3 - Secret Knowledge, Scroll Mastery II, Bonus Language I
Level 4 -
Level 5 - Scroll Mastery III, Bonus Language II
Level 6 - Secret Knowledge
Level 7 - Scroll Mastery IV, Bonus Language III
Level 8 -
Level 9 - Secret Knowledge, Scroll Mastery V, Bonus Language IV
Level 10 - Tutor, Bonus Language V
Feedback:

* Any Loremaster worth his salt is going to have a high INT anyway. Do they need so many bonus languages? What is the benefit of having a bonus language other than conversation?

* If languages are the basis of a loremaster, then languages need to be KEYS / MEANS to UNLOCK a Culture based Research system of Secrets & Lore. Suggestion: The bonus languages should be chosen or represent a speciality in a contained list of "Ancient", "Old" or "Elder" versions of existing languages.

* Secret Knowledge. How is this manifested in the game world? Well, if it is discoverable, it must be written down, albeit in a fragmented form. If it is written down, logically it is shareable, valuable, stealable. Loremasters should be able to discover, translate, scribe and share. Anyone should be able to discover, translate, scribe and share -- but the loremaster is x10 times better at it. ("Kidnap Dr. Jones. He has the skills we need to translate this gibberish.")

Therefore, should Secret Knowledge better be a bonus to "Secret Knowledge Research"?

* Tutor at level 10. A tutor is someone able to teach or share knowledge. Currently this is only someone who can teach languages -- is that worthy of a level 10 ability? I would suggest breaking this into?

-- Level 5: Language Tutor: The Loremaster is skilled in teaching students / prospective lorists languages. i.e. A level 5 lorist can teach modern forms of languages more efficiently to students and can RECRUIT other lorists. Can teach an Ancient form to a level 1-10 lorist.

-- Level 10: Scribe Ancient Text: This lorist specializes in Scribing Secrets onto Scrolls which anyone can use. i.e. They can share their secret research with others. It might require Lorist quality Parchments & Inks and other ingredients.

* Abilities at 2, 4, 8.

The loremaster strikes me as a class that should always be learning and benefiting, bit by bit for their efforts. Ideally, they should have abilities at every level?

First Bonus / Ancient Language should be at level 1? As it represents the basis of their subsequent research and investigations?

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Nevrus » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:13 am

Before I go to sleep I wanted to braindump some stuff on this thread. These are thoughts for discussion and not direct suggestions per se.

1. What is the purpose of a Loremaster?
This should be a core theme approached with any suggestions for alterations to the class as presented. There's a lot of different takes on what people want I see in this thread, but there's one core to the class which results in those takes based on the class it combines with:

They know a LOOOOOT of things. They know how to find things. They know how to teach other people those things. They are masters of knowledge in its own right, and so commanding is their understanding of the written word in various languages that they can accurately use scrolls designed for disciplines they have know direct knowledge of. Regardless of what the entry class is, a Loremaster is a living library of knowledge that is always adding to the collection. What they choose to add is up to them, and why they choose to add it is also up to them, but to be a Loremaster means to have a strong basis of deep knowledge.

2. What fantasies can a Loremaster fulfill?
Loremaster as a class is one that really needs to be taken in combination with the 'entry class' to create a fantasy. They are, in essence, a 'blank' that knows a great deal about the world outside of their core profession. To give some examples:

Rogue Loremaster - Archaeologist. In order to unearth the secrets of the past, they trained to be able to infiltrate well-guarded tombs to uncover protected history.
Rogue Loremaster - Tomb Raider. In order to sell the secrets of the past, they trained to be able to infiltrate well-guarded tombs to uncover protected valuable property, which they themselves learn from to keep their craft improving and to be able to sell that information to future buyers.
Bard Loremaster - Story Collector. In collecting tales, songs, and art, they understand lost cultures and deeper truths about the world, and share them in similar artistic fashion.
Fighter Loremaster - War Scholar. They focused on unearthing the secret stratagems and techniques lost to history and used by heroes of old, and became an expert on military history while recreating the old ways to win new battles.
Cleric Loremaster - Ecclesiasticist. (It's a bad name I'm tired) By discovering the ancient secrets of their faith and the faiths of others they unearth forgotten wisdom needed in a trying age and understand how customs of faith rise and fall.
Wizard Loremaster - Archivist. Not content with being an expert of knowledge of only arcane magic, they scoured the most forbidden tomes on the most obscure subjects in search of a greater understanding of the material world and its history so they can better find mystic secrets and warp the world to their will.

3. How can this be adapted to Arelith in a way that enables all these fantasies?
This is the real question that should be addressed in suggestions. Loremaster shouldn't fulfill just one niche (I know you want to be Indiana Jones, just ask them to make Dungeon Delver next). It needs to support a wide array of stories with a cross-adaptable set of mechanics, themed around that central idea- they know a lot of deep knowledge about many subjects which lets them do things that seem impossible to achieve just from reading. So, with that in mind, I'd like to ask people looking for inspiration to post suggestions to consider the following core tenets of what this class needs to be a vehicle for roleplay:

1. Interaction with the Written Word: Scrolls are fine, but what other (achievable in this engine) mechanics could be pulled out from this?
2. Acquiring Information: Loremasters have to find lore, evidence, and observations to assemble their knowledge. Some of that knowledge should be helpful for gaining more information, even if it's not books or artifacts.
3. Sharing Information: Loremasters are powerful teachers. It wouldn't matter how much they knew if they couldn't tell it to you effectively. What mechanics could help stress them sharing their knowledge in a mechanically beneficial way?
4. Applying Information: When you know something useful, it has to be used to be useful. What direct in-game benefits could be achieved from having a deep knowledge on an obscure subject no one else appreciates?
5. Achieving the Impossible: Some feats seem like they can only be performed by people with decades of training, but if you find the right how-to guides, maybe a three-week crash course of practice can achieve the same result? What roleplay-centric class mechanics could we pluck out to give to a total nerd who read a book to make them extremely versatile off the battlefield? Climbing!?

I'm also on team Four or Five Secrets because they give an opportunity to have a lot of unique hooks. It could be possible to class secrets into Major and Minor so that the more mechanics-focused ones have to be mixed with more RP focused ones.

I really like the potential this class offers which is why I'm excited to post about it.
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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Cerce » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:15 am

+1 for Commoner class Loremasters! Would absolutely love to make a commoner focused on diplomacy and the language-learning capabilities within the class.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Jagel » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:27 am

Haven’t read through it all so maybe someone Else has already suggested something similar.

Secret of magic mastery: + 2 cl for dispel purposes.

Can be taken multiple times.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Itikar » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:28 am

Yes, the first thing I thought when reading the class features was that it would be an awesome prestige class for a commoner character.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Baseili » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:30 am

I disagree with the thought that Loremaster must fit into certain classes, its convoluting the principle behind the class itself which is pure and clean-cut, a Loremaster seeks knowledge. How your character chooses to do this should be determined by the other 20 levels not by forcing a Harper/Zhent-esk synergy.

That in mind I like the framework that has been built so far with the exception of scroll and rod usage, having what amounts to a scroll junky doing lines of scripture-cocaine or swirling sticks isn't mastering lore, its "UMD the class". Being able to use scrolls should be a by-product of the class and not its defining feature, so instead of it I'd like to suggest the following:

Ability - Font of Lore
The pursuit of knowledge and understanding is truly endless for every answer uncovered, two questions are raised. This is the fuel that drives the Loremaster to constantly seek out tomes upon every subject imaginable and extolling their discoveries to those around them.
Imparts a depth of understanding upon party members, increasing their abilities. (Similar to Knights abilities, grants base bonuses TBD)
(Increases dependent upon Epiphanies, potency dependent upon Magnum Opus)


Feat - Magnum Opus (or Great Work if latin is ill suited)
Each page of a manuscript, every chapter in a leather-bound tome are stepping stones of understanding, viewed separately they may seem unrelated but when added to the greater whole their wisdom can provide boundless insight. This is the culmination of a Loremaster's lifetime of endeavours. The Magnum Opus.
Loremasters add books to their Magnum Opus as they travel, increasing their understanding of the world around them and possibily leading to an Epiphany.

Feat - Epiphany (Max 3)
A flash of light within the mind, a sudden shift of perspective, a rush of realisation. The moment in life that changes the Loremaster, and thus, changes the world. An Epiphany is as unpredictable as it is miraculous and they may strike at any time across the great wealth of a Loremaster's knowledge.
Each book added to the Magnum Opus has a building chance to manifest as a random Epiphany (1 per 3 levels) granting a bonus to the Loremaster and additional bonuses to the Font of Lore ability.

Incomplete List of Epiphanies
Mechanics
Anatomy
Commerce
Strategy
Subterfugue
Arcane
Divine
Apothecary
Psyhcology

I've suggested random epiphanies as a measure against abuse and to true to the class as a devotee of learning, the bonuses confered would be small yet useful. Not as powerful as a bards song but longer duration.

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Tathkar Eisgrim
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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:33 am

Nice post Nevrus. Well said.

Further Feedback / Suggestions to latest update:

Loremasters eking out extra charges / uses from scrolls and rods. Is this intended to be a return of some potency for losing caster levels for taking Loremaster?

Just checking: If Greater Spell Focus is a pre-requisite for these secrets, Wizard Lorists will still retain Inficasting?

Secret - Improved Initiative. The individual is trained how to think quickly / train fast-twitch muscles / act instinctively.
Secret - Dirty Fighting. Maybe a good time to alter Dirty Fighting feat into something meaningful?

Equipment:

There is an obvious niche for Adventurer-Loremasters to have specialist crafting / equipment / scrolls / rods / books.

Maybe a Loremaster prepares well, with Specialist crafting & equipment -- in order to obtain their rewards -- scrolls, rods and books.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Cerce » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:06 pm

Just a heads up regarding game balance: This will allow mundane or mostly-mundane classes to, as far as I understand it, take ESF Illusion (Gnomes get SF Illusion as a Racial, so could *technically* take it without being able to cast. At all.). I'm personally super pumped to be an absolute dumbass on my planned Forest Gnome 10 levels in Loremaster 'Knows All the Languages, Literally' character, but others have pointed out in me talking this out that the class might very well become just an ESF Illusion dip.

Imagine this: 14int+2gift 24 Barbarian, 3 [insert literally any casting class], 3 Loremaster and take the Secret Knowledge of Illusion. Suddenly you now have TWO of these suckers just, whacking incessantly. I really, really, really want to be able to mess around with ESF gimmicks with like, a 20 Bard 10 Loremaster build, but this could seriously get out of hand.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Irongron » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:38 pm

Just a quick note to say I edited the update post to mention their weapon, armour and shield proficiences, which while mentioned in the first draft were lost somwhere along the way.

A lot of great secret ideas (I do like the Magnum Opus idea)

Also, I'm still a bit torn about making this a commoner class, still leaning towards a no there.

EDIT: 4 secrets now granted, at 2, 4 6 and 8. There are more in the works too, which will be updated in the next days.

I've updated the main news article to include all current additions to the class.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Rico_scorpion » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:28 pm

A note about the fear of esf illusion:

For me it opens new builds that have big sacrifices just to get that. It's good. It's exactly what we need to shake up and cook up new build. Strong investment strong reward. A loremaster that just doesn't enable anything, is kind of noise on your screen when "building a char" (note: i do respect the concept of "rp classes", but then we have to accept that they are under-represented and irrelevant to the core gameplay/progression discussions). While esf illusion seems strong on paper, it's much less impressive once in game. Still strong if done right, but not at all worth some primal fear of breaking the game, at least in my opinion.

Example: your illusioned barbarian above, will have trash ac, will go down in two rounds at epic levels, and might add some very decent dps, true. At the cost of 1-2 feats, 3-6 class levels.

I could be wrong tho.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Archnon » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:52 pm

I'd be more concerned with monk-ranger-loremaster combos. Either monk heavy or ranger heavy will get you a high attack rate, high ac, and a clone. 4 ranger levels unlocks spells and you can even make your own scrolls.and wands and run off those with the right gear. 20 monk 4 ranger 6 loremaster would net you three big secrets. Plays as a gnome, or better yet a svirf, and you got esf illusion quick.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Zaphiel » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:21 pm

I wouldn't suggest anyone to make builds around ESF: Illusion perk.
Edited for grammar to make it worse, probably.

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:07 pm

Exclude the clone. This is imbalanced. The 9th level spells requirement always kept this in realms of sanity.

Otherwise I like the changes a LOT and I'm also leaning more towards no-commoner, as this is becoming an increasingly more adventure focused with every bit the devs add.

Another thing I thought about is to stack loremaster levels with both hybrid and full caster classes for the purposes of Dweomecrafting tier progression.
Last edited by AstralUniverse on Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Halibutthead » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:30 pm

i love seeing post of "this is overpowered" followed by "weak sauce" only to be continued with "delet this"

can't wait to test it out

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:36 pm

Since Loremaster seems to be leaning towards a wand & scroll specialist, I'd be interested to see a secret for empower, extend, and maximize metamagics that gives an x% chance of applying that metamagic to any wand or scroll usage.
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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Dr. B » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:55 pm

I like the adjustments, but I still think the class level needs to add to caster levels for determining dispel DC's, otherwise it's just gonna be a nightmare to invest heavily in it. Especially since the adjustments seem oriented towards casters. Dips are clearly very powerful though. Maybe the DC bonus shouldn't kick in until one has taken several levels in the class, say 7 or 8, or maybe even 10.

Also, do you need level 9 spells to access the Epic Spells, or can anyone with the requisite feats do it except for Spellswords?

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Re: Loremaster Feedback Megathread

Post by Nevrus » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:01 pm

Epic Spells require specifically 21 levels of Wizard, Sorceror, Cleric, or Druid. You won't be able to do 10 Loremaster and get them. Epic spell foci, on the other hand, only require 9th level casting and GSF.
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