Loremaster Feedback Megathread

[Skane]

Feedback on Loremaster!

Personally I think reduce its HD to a d4, AB to 1/2th, and give it 3/4th spell progression.

Reason being that in PNP, it is intended for a caster, based upon its requirements; the flavor of it is indeed a drawing point, but in my opinion, it isn't enough, a Loremaster in my eyes is a wizened elder, whose knowledge of the world lends itself to knowing much about the world around them, the classes that best can use this are, however, things like fighter or rogue at first glance, which is almost the opposite of what I imagine a Loremaster to be.

Hell, the principal image for the Loremaster are men and women in large robes; when the reality is going to be they'll most likely be using heavy armor. In its current state, I just don't feel like Loremaster fits with the thematic of it, a lot of people are pleased to have a 'mundane' who is widely knowledgable about the world, and I don't think that's a bad thing, giving it something like casting progression doesn't eliminate that possibility, it would, however, make it more viable and widely used.

A class that is intended for heavy RP won't produce RP if it doesn't have any attractive mechanical upsides as well; perhaps I'm wrong, and it will be capable of producing some broken build or another, but at first glance, I don't like the look of it.

[Drowboy]

And make it an auto-take for every wizard? Dunno about that one chief

[Skane]

And make it an auto-take for every wizard? Dunno about that one chief

3/4th progression ain't a auto-take; trust me.

[Moonlandergames]

I would enjoy being able to take loremaster as a commoner. Building up on that heavy scroll/UMD/Item commoner with a few more tricks and even the ability to pick up teaching for languages would be icing on the cake.

[Skane]

I would enjoy being able to take loremaster as a commoner. Building up on that heavy scroll/UMD/Item commoner with a few more tricks and even the ability to pick up teaching for languages would be icing on the cake.

"While you were studying the blade, I was taking out a library book"
I love it.

[Quidix]

I think the class is really cool as it is - well done Zaphiel!

I'm sure some balancing may or may not be appropriate, but I don't see a need to making it into a 3/4 caster class instead.

Not sure if it's a problem or not, but just to mention at class lvl 10 these guys get CL 22 Mords and CL 22 holy sword scrolls.

I'd be okay with it being opened to commoners, but I think it should be a choice between Specialist and Loremaster in that case (ie cannot take both).

[Skane]

I think the class is really cool as it is - well done Zaphiel!

I'm sure some balancing may or may not be appropriate, but I don't see a need to making it into a 3/4 caster class instead.

Not sure if it's a problem or not, but just to mention at class lvl 10 these guys get CL 22 Mords and CL 22 holy sword scrolls.

I'd be okay with it being opened to commoners, but I think it should be a choice between Specialist and Loremaster in that case (ie cannot take both).

Even if was 1/2th progression I'd be happier with it, having none just seems.. kind of pointless for a caster to take.

[Hunter548]

Honestly, I'm not sure what you'd want to take the class for on any base class/build. Pretty much the only benefit to it I see is some sort of GOH character with loremaster to slurp up and then regurgitate languages at events, then spit them back out at other events and sit in a vault unplayed otherwise - and that's obviously not something I think the dev team wants to encourage.

[Dalenger]

+1 for making the loremaster a commoner-open class. Seeing some rp/crafting focused Secret Knowledge would be great. Maybe allow crafters to make stuff outside their race or enchant stuff cheaper, etc. Or maybe allow commoners to find shadow doors or something?

I agree that I'm confused what this class is trying to be. Maybe people will start taking 3 levels in this instead of rogue or bard to get their UMD dip so they can also get +1 AB from Secret Knowledge. Idk why a wizard would want to take this.

[Irongron]

As I said in the general Discord, I think this will likely remain on PGCC for a while as we take more suggestions.

Right now the secrets are pretty much taken from source-books, and provide little variation. If this class is to be improved, I suspect it will be via the addition of more, specifically tailored secrets for Arelith.

I'm personally not sure about adding it to commoner, as it's quite quite an adventuring class, and may entirely replace Specialist?

Caster Levels I was also cautious of, but again that could be addressed in further secrets.

Once a Beamdog update supports it, I'd also be happy to see the class given a limited spellbook, akin to paladin & ranger.

In any case, I agree there isn't much of a mechanical benefit to the class, to those who are especially invested in them, but I also think they might be surprised at how many take it. There are plenty of players who are attracted to 'RP' heavy classes, as Commoner has illustrated.

[AstralUniverse]

+1 on opening it for commoners at epics, like specialist.

Overall I think, with a lack of Tumble, this isnt a powerhouse late game dip but it's nice. I can see it fitting some generic builds which already have freedom in their third class of choice, such as heavy fighters and heavy rogues. Casters, not so much actually.

It was definitely not designed to sync with Wizard, from what it seems. Wizards dont really benefit a lot from any of this. They already swim in languages, they dont use a lot of scrolls, they dont need saves.

This class seems more to aim to put other none-wizard loremasters on board, rather than wizards being the default loremasters.

Again, because of the lack in Tumble, this isnt an amazing late-game dip for many builds so I dont really see any powerhouse enabled here. It's pretty much as Hunter said, vault characters to pull out for lectures.

[Xerah]

There are some cool things with it but I think it really misses the mark of being useful for the theme of the build. As it does not add caster levels, I don't see a wizard or a knowledge-based cleric taking this; the hit to their caster level is just too prohibitive to their long term success as a character. It could be an okayish option for a bard but knight is still probably a better choice. I consider no caster level a big miss with the theme of the class.

I not a huge fan of the secrets. If there was something that could have been done that were not those boring stat stick bonuses, that would have been far more interesting, for some examples (not like definitive things/numbers/choice, but things that work with unique Arelith mechanics):

• The Greater Eye: Know when you are being scurried
• The Sight of the True Being: +15 to detect disguise
• Finding that Which is Never There: +10% to collect a resource
• All Paths Lead to Me: +50% chance to reveal map
• The Exact Craft: +10 bonus to rolls on craft mastery (i.e. only +10 to DC instead of 20)
• Turning Lead into Gold: 0% tax rate on the shop you own/no rent
• Everlasting Luck: +50% chance to dig something up with a shovel
• The Elementals: Show auras
• The Mechanical Animator: Create Golems

These actually feel like cool secrets rather than just a bunch of numbers.

[Scurvy Cur]

I think the class is really cool as it is - well done Zaphiel!
Not sure if it's a problem or not, but just to mention at class lvl 10 these guys get CL 22 Mords and CL 22 holy sword scrolls.

Largely a non-problem imo.

Re: Mord's scrolls, the class may make the scrolls stronger but does nothing to make using them any easier: you've still got to take 80 lore or have enough wizard/sorc levels (9 or 10 respectively) to qualifty. 10 Loremaster/9 Wizard does not seem, at least on its face, a promising starting point for a build, and 80 lore remains a punishingly steep requirement.

Re: Holy Sword scrolls, they're more easily accessed, but the CL scaling only matters if the wielder is a paladin, as the dispel proc will only function for a paladin wielder iirc, and CL scaling caps at 20 anyhow. I can dust off an abj pally to test, just to be sure. Again you're wandering into weird pal/loremaster territory and will probably just be worse at what you're trying to do than any of the currently meta builds that I can think of.

As other posters have noted, this seems largely an RP flavor class. That's fine for what it's worth.

[The1Kobra]

As it currently is, Loremaster is pretty much just a class for RP. The secrets aren't really that strong, +1 AB or AC might be nice but there's much better things out there, especially for a 3/4 BAB class. Things like the saves/HP secrets are just analogs to a pre-epic feat one can take.
The major things I see Loremaster being good for is teaching/learning languages, but honestly a wizard with a high INT will probably get just as many languages anyways while also having full casting, so I don't see Loremaster being too helpful. They do get scroll usage benefits but they still will never be able to compete with a dedicated caster, especially against ones who can just make more of their own scrolls.

I don't see this class being used much at all in it's current implementation.

It also deviates quite a lot from PnP loremasters. In PnP, they have d4 HP, have full caster progression, but also require some investment:
3 Metamagic Feats
1 Skill Focus Feat
2 different knowledge skills with 10 ranks.
Able to cast at least 7 divination spells.

The last requirement probably isn't workable in NWN, but still, even if that did all factor in, it's pretty much just an alternative wizard path.

I don't see this class being really appealing without a lot of changes. The trick is to differentiate it from a stock standard wizard with divination focus, I'd think.

[AstralUniverse]

I like Xerah's ideas a lot but they pretty much rule out Commoners. It's too adventure focused at that point, if it wasnt already, as Irongron said.

[Hunter548]

There are some cool things with it but I think it really misses the mark of being useful for the theme of the build. As it does not add caster levels, I don't see a wizard or a knowledge-based cleric taking this; the hit to their caster level is just too prohibitive to their long term success as a character. It could be an okayish option for a bard but knight is still probably a better choice. I consider no caster level a big miss with the theme of the class.

I not a huge fan of the secrets. If there was something that could have been done that were not those boring stat stick bonuses, that would have been far more interesting, for some examples (not like definitive things/numbers/choice, but things that work with unique Arelith mechanics):

• The Greater Eye: Know when you are being scurried
• The Sight of the True Being: +15 to detect disguise
• Finding that Which is Never There: +10% to collect a resource
• All Paths Lead to Me: +50% chance to reveal map
• The Exact Craft: +10 bonus to rolls on craft mastery (i.e. only +10 to DC instead of 20)
• Turning Lead into Gold: 0% tax rate on the shop you own/no rent
• Everlasting Luck: +50% chance to dig something up with a shovel
• The Elementals: Show auras
• The Mechanical Animator: Create Golems

These actually feel like cool secrets rather than just a bunch of numbers.

This is the kind of stuff that'd be good for the class - there's not much roleplay behind getting +2 fort, after all, and people have called themselves Loremasters for years before the class existed, and probably will for years after without taking the class.

All of these would be good to giving it its own niche, however.

[Gouge Away]

I'm going the opposite direction- this doesn't need caster levels. I like it as a mundane option.

I think, instead, it could use rogue affinity. A rogue would give up the sneak attack dice and rogue bonus feats from Loremaster levels, but Loremaster levels would still contribute to grenades they can access and use as well as blinding speed, the rogue weapon and armor bonuses and stealth speed.

That's what would entice me, for sure, to be able to make a true mundane artificer/ gadget whiz.

[Drowboy]

Oh I love the rogue affinity idea. Maybe a tinker's secret that lets you make a cool grenade or two.

[R0GUE]

Oh I love the rogue affinity idea. Maybe a tinker's secret that lets you make a cool grenade or two.

It would be cool if with a few tweaks this could become the main PrC for an Indiana Jones archetype for Arelith.

[Dr. B]

Maybe the loremaster could have two paths, one with CL progression and one with Rogue Affinity.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Yeah, as it is, it seems like the main intent is for it to be something non-arcane characters could crossclass into for some wizard benefits. It offers things low-int characters can't get, such as languages. However the high int prereq for it hurts that.

As someone playing a wizard, if I crossclassed into it, it'd be only 3 levels since it gets some skills I'd want from rogue, bard, or ranger.
The class is attractive for having disable trap as a class skill, but I have no idea how it'd actually fit into my build, if I'd end up losing feats.
Someone who cares more about pvp-viability than me pointed out that it doesn't have either discipline or tumble, which is a large reason to cross-class. I don't go out of my way to PvP or powerbuild, but I also like being confident that if I need to defend myself I won't die immediately.

And in terms of using it as a skill monkey class, specialist fills the role so well, I don't really know if trying to fix these issues on their own will make the class more viable. I like Xerah's suggestions for making it a lot more unique and caster focused.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the idea of an Indiana Jones style class. But I think it'd have to be built from the ground up with that in mind. A class that combines the utility of rogue with the knowledge/research aspects of the current iteration of Loremaster would be fun, a way for a non-magic character to play a researcher.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Definitely think you could up the Secret variety and put them at every even level (2, 4, 6, 8, 10).

I also don't like Tutor. It just fills me with a sense that Hunter mentioned - a languagebot that'll get rolled out to teach everyone cool languages.

This class does give me the urge to see more systems interact with language.

[fading]

Maybe the loremaster could have two paths, one with CL progression and one with Rogue Affinity.

I very much approve of this.

[Baron Saturday]

The Secrets mechanic could, theoretically, make the class incredibly versatile. For instance:

Secret of Arcane/Divine Mysteries - Gives partial arcane/divine CL scaling.
Secrets of Artifice - Gains rogue grenade creation & use if the character doesn't have it, or counts as rogue levels if it does.
Secrets of Acrobatics/Stoics/Etc: Adds tumble/discipline/etc as a class skill.
Secrets of the Martialist - Improves class BAB and hit die.
Secrets of the Tracker - Gain the Track feat.

And so forth. Effectively giving the Loremaster access to very specific pieces of other class kits. This would probably need to be done very, very carefully to make sure it didn't enable anything super broken, but I think it might add some fun variety.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I like the language bonuses to the class, to me that's one of its big appeals.