Loremaster Feedback Megathread

[Dr. B]

So Archnon’s build wouldn’t work then?

[Nevrus]

I have a question for Irongron. What is the actual effects of the Secret Knowledge of (School)?

The chat commands are easy gimmes. Does it also cause spells to scale? I.E. taking it for Div gives bonus duration to True Sight, etc?

Does it give the DC bonus?

The way it's worded leaves a lot open for interpretation with all the Arelith changes we've seen.

[Zaphiel]

It does only give access to Arelith custom Epic Spell Focus perks. This doesn't includes bonus to spells. Such as divination's true seeing or Illusion's longer invisibility duration.

One can easily check the perks of an ESF from http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Feat_changes this link. Only bonuses which is written in there is granted.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

More Feedback:

Suggesting a Weakness:

I've just noticed that Loremasters are listed as having Light, Medium & Shield proficiencies.

-- Perhaps they could lose the shield proficiency? To represent the "bookish" nature of the class and to avoid tower shield wielding loremasters without some intentional feat investment or multi-classing?

[Halibutthead]

no tower shields? what else am i supposed to use as a multipurpose defense/reading material holder?

[Echohawk]

I sure hope those secrets of the epic spells are blocked from anyone who can't cast 9th level circle spells of either divine or arcane.

[Nevrus]

Because Loremasters are the super language people can they get added to the bonus classes for translating languages and breaking the cap alongside monk, bard, and harper?

[AstralUniverse]

It does only give access to Arelith custom Epic Spell Focus perks. This doesn't includes bonus to spells. Such as divination's true seeing or Illusion's longer invisibility duration.

One can easily check the perks of an ESF from http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Feat_changes this link. Only bonuses which is written in there is granted.

Its confusing because Divination's true seeing bonus DOES show in the wiki, along with just about everything else these feats do except the vanilla +2 to dc for the school. Upon initial reading, I was under the assumption that this will work just for the arelithian 'epic' spells such as yoink, ward, scry, etc. But then you have conjuration and enchantment on that list, which dont have any of those 'epic' spells with them so what do they give, in that case? Some clarity would help us offering better feedback.

I sure hope those secrets of the epic spells are blocked from anyone who can't cast 9th level circle spells of either divine or arcane.

The whole point is that they will be accessible to characters without 9th level circle, because 9th level circle casters can just pick epic spell focus.

[Zaphiel]

Its confusing because Divination's true seeing bonus DOES show in the wiki, along with just about everything else these feats do except the vanilla +2 to dc for the school. Upon initial reading, I was under the assumption that this will work just for the arelithian 'epic' spells such as yoink, ward, scry, etc. But then you have conjuration and enchantment on that list, which dont have any of those 'epic' spells with them so what do they give, in that case? Some clarity would help us offering better feedback.

Conjuration only gives access to -yoink. Enchantment gives the same benefits of ESF. Like mindfog duration extend and second creature dominate.

[AstralUniverse]

Its confusing because Divination's true seeing bonus DOES show in the wiki, along with just about everything else these feats do except the vanilla +2 to dc for the school. Upon initial reading, I was under the assumption that this will work just for the arelithian 'epic' spells such as yoink, ward, scry, etc. But then you have conjuration and enchantment on that list, which dont have any of those 'epic' spells with them so what do they give, in that case? Some clarity would help us offering better feedback.

Conjuration only gives access to -yoink. Enchantment gives the same benefits of ESF. Like mindfog duration extend and second creature dominate.

Woops. I meant evocation, enchantment and necromancy. So they just give everything ESF gives except +2 to DC spells?

[Archnon]

So, just thinking about this, I think this will be a very popular class for Ranger/Paladin/Hexblade with Monk or COT levels. You can dip most of these classes to get access to GSF and with the right gear, you can even scribe many of the scrolls you want. RP wise, I think this is great. A paladin loremaster or Ranger loremaster makes total sense to me.

However, I also think that giving these strong melee classes access to the bonus things, specifically Ward paralysis and illusion clones will be rough. That let's paladins get their windup in while the opposition is paralyzed or attacking the clone. Or lets ranger monks just wammy people. And most of these classes at least take GSF Abj for the shield protections already and illusion has a lot of value too. That means a 4 level dip and potentially 2 extra feats pre dip will net you those ESF abilities.

I think instead that these should automatically grant the GSF feat with no pre-requisite. It doesn't change balance much but grants essentially two feats for one to make it a serious perk. Plus, GSF Trans and Abj have serious in-game benefits while illusion has an awesome RP component.

Since Loremaster seems to be leaning towards a wand & scroll specialist, I'd be interested to see a secret for empower, extend, and maximize metamagics that gives an x% chance of applying that metamagic to any wand or scroll usage.

.

I also really agree that something that allowed you to extend scrolls would be amazing. As a focus on scroll use, being able to cast, say an extended level 10 haste with a 10 level investment would be a serious bonus and be more fitting.

[Drowboy]

Secret: Wandslinger. Adds to the DC calc of offensive wands somehow

[Orian_666]

Loremaster "Secret Knowledge of Illusion" clone only lasts about 1 round before unsummoning.

[TimeAdept]

I sure hope those secrets of the epic spells are blocked from anyone who can't cast 9th level circle spells of either divine or arcane.

The entire intention seems to be to get them on ranger/paladin/bard/warlock/hexblade.

[Halibutthead]

Loremaster "Secret Knowledge of Illusion" clone only lasts about 1 round before unsummoning.

what's your tested build? it makes an awful lot of sense if you have no caster class. wiki says "The copy will last 1 hour/caster level or until you rest."

[Orian_666]

Loremaster "Secret Knowledge of Illusion" clone only lasts about 1 round before unsummoning.

what's your tested build? it makes an awful lot of sense if you have no caster class. wiki says "The copy will last 1 hour/caster level or until you rest."

21 Ranger/6 Monk/3 Loremaster
So if it's not counting Ranger as a Caster Class for it (which would make sense as they previously couldn't get it by themselves) then I guess that'd explain it.

[Quidix]

I feel that loremaster and bard should have some synergy. I'd suggest a secret:

Secret of Song: Gain 1 bard song progression for every 2 levels of loremaster (capping at +5 at lvl 10).

[Xerah]

I sure hope those secrets of the epic spells are blocked from anyone who can't cast 9th level circle spells of either divine or arcane.

The entire intention seems to be to get them on ranger/paladin/bard/warlock/hexblade.

Those secrets are designed to be taken by more people than just casters who can do lvl 9 spells.

[Halibutthead]

i think some of these "secret" ideas should be incremental feats. for example, a secret of spellcasting (+1 caster level) I-V, secret of song I-V, maybe even a secret involving weapon attacks (which might only go I-III).

though, this might make the class a little too easily customized

[Nevrus]

Will the Secret Knowledge perks be functional before level 21?

I could see a (fun and interesting) scenario where the class is immediately taken at level 6 to get access to these benefits on low level characters for faction services starting at level 7. That would actually be a fun character to play.

[Xerah]

They require epic levels.

Promoting lvl 7 factions alts is a terrible thing to do.

[Nevrus]

That does have the side-effect of making it that if you grab Loremaster pre-20 these secrets are pretty much non-functional until you hit epic levels, which is kind of awkward in its own way. I think in terms of long-term balance it makes perfect sense, but in terms of taking Loremaster from 10 to 20, you could wind up with 4 epic abilities waiting for you to hit 21 to actually use giving you nothing of value while actually levelling the class up.

It's weird to put epic-level benefits in a class you can take at level 6. The intent for it seems to be a 21-30 class, but the requirements don't reflect that.

[R0GUE]

That does have the side-effect of making it that if you grab Loremaster pre-20 these secrets are pretty much non-functional until you hit epic levels, which is kind of awkward in its own way. I think in terms of long-term balance it makes perfect sense, but in terms of taking Loremaster from 10 to 20, you could wind up with 4 epic abilities waiting for you to hit 21 to actually use giving you nothing of value while actually levelling the class up.

It's weird to put epic-level benefits in a class you can take at level 6. The intent for it seems to be a 21-30 class, but the requirements don't reflect that.

Likewise there's a real "trap" ability inherent in the class which is the Secret Knowledge of Evocation. This has always been a bit of a trap because the Arelith specific enhancement is only beneficial if you take one of two specific epic level spells. But at least in that case, if you didn't have the spells you'd still manage to get the vanilla benefits. In this case, a character could take Knowledge of Evocation in the pre-epics, not understanding what its benefits are, or forgetting them because he took it many, many levels ago, and wind up with a completely non-functional feat.

[Gouge Away]

That does have the side-effect of making it that if you grab Loremaster pre-20 these secrets are pretty much non-functional until you hit epic levels, which is kind of awkward in its own way. I think in terms of long-term balance it makes perfect sense, but in terms of taking Loremaster from 10 to 20, you could wind up with 4 epic abilities waiting for you to hit 21 to actually use giving you nothing of value while actually levelling the class up.

It's weird to put epic-level benefits in a class you can take at level 6. The intent for it seems to be a 21-30 class, but the requirements don't reflect that.

Not that weird. Greater Spell Focus has abilities that don't kick in until epic levels for example even though you can take them at level 3.

It's a homemade NWN class, there's going to be a little roughness around the edges due to game and server limitations.

[AstralUniverse]

interaction with dwemocrafting went kind of poorly here. Rather, none existent.
CL should stack with both hybrid and full caster levels. This will mostly help hybrid classes reach second tier if they dont dip a third class. I really think being this awesome with knowledge and languages etc etc and suffering in dwemocrafting department for it in return is very counter productive.

I also agree with what said above. There's really no reason to take this class pre-epic levels. It's not a bad thing imo, but having something nice to offer earlier investment could be nice. Two primary saves is neat but I say there's no harm in adding fortitude. This can be justified by the same reasons this class has unique feats for +2 to each save. Then its an interesting early dip for many save/starved classes and it will fit more builds in deeper investment.