APR too high for rp

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Eira
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APR too high for rp

Post by Eira » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:29 am

This is a very niche thing that I've been thinking a lot about recently, and I wanted to poke the relative hive mind about more meshing of combat and rp.

Not every combat needs to aim for who wins. Sometimes you just need to stab someone once or give them a nice uppercut to accentuate a point.

My problem is that I play a monk, and with 7 APR, me emoting "she punches him" or "smacks with her staff" it can quickly turn into an all-out beatdown.

I've tried to remedy this with a single knockdown and then quickly retreating or, when my build used to have dirty fighting for subdual, I was able to smack someone once and then stop.

But now there's nothing stopping me from doing a whole flurry of hits, and sometimes you just want to put someone to injured or barely injured, not outright near death them.

I could just emote this, of course, but mechanics should be roleplayed, and it would be great if there was a way to set your APR to 1 or just do a single attack that doesn't turn into a full out KO. I think that could also be useful for sparring or teaching, or really, any sort of rp that uses combat.

So, my question for the crowd is if I am alone in this, or if anyone else has felt that their APR is too damn high for certain rp situations, or if there are any ideas on how this could be done.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Irongron » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:18 am

Personally I much prefer the 'slow-motion' low level adventuring experience to the rapid warzone experience of multiple explosions per second that comes with high levels, precisely because I enjoy an element of roleplay, though I've spoken with a great many that absolutely despise the speed of low level adventuring.

As a result I'm one of those who dislike the speed at which characters generally zip through those lower levels now, as I feel one has barely time to establish one's RP and development before playing at demi-god tier.

I'm still considering a start option that reduces xp gain to a quarter for those that would rather take 2 years over a character than 2 months (or less)

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Zenko » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:26 am

What i have done in the past is fully emote the whole fight for RP reasons as at the time i was very weak like level 5 and they were level 30 but it created one of the most fun and unique scenes in my game time here.

This does mean you need to find someone to do this with but it can be done and ive seen it done in the hub where someone grabbed them by the throat and dragged them through the Hub and the person that was grabbed then lens out.

Regarding the knockdown i had someone similar but it was disarm where i gave them tells of my strength and discipline and let them choose if i could disarm them which they let me do.

I think this is something that should be done more as it builds a level of understanding between the PC that opens new windows for RP scenes.

I like the idea of limiting your attacks though as it could make RP scenes more fluent and would allow you to use the in game mechanics more.
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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:04 am

Entirely agree, on both leveling speed and end-game numbers. Could we at some point start looking or thinking of ways to decrease the ceiling of damage numbers?

I know this is a big balancing endeavour but I feel like over the years the damage numbers have been getting higher and higher. This is an issue for both PvP and PvE. I would love slightly slower combat, even in epics.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Apothys » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:00 am

This is so weird, i was levering up a new character recently and i was thinking its so nice having like 2 or 3 attacks, you feel like you are actually fighting with the enemy, not blitzing through them like your hairs on fire and your looking for the nearest water source. Be great if the fight animations looked that way, however without lowering the level cap im unsure how it would be done.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:55 am

A few interesting points here.

Not every combat needs to aim for who wins. Sometimes you just need to stab someone once or give them a nice uppercut to accentuate a point."
To me this is a perfect situaiton for something emoted, rather than actual combat. If you're planning on starting an actual full on-possibly-to-the-death fight - Then just an emote of *Reaches out and attempts to punch bob in the face* Is enough.
If you're actually attempting to beat someone down - but not kill them - then Subdual is probably your best option.
And again, if you want to murder someone - then yeah there's just the usual.

With that being said, I do actually agree with the leveling situation - leveling does seem very fast nowadays, perhaps a little too fast. But changing it will be... difficult and will meet with a lot of resistance.
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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Itikar » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:07 pm

Leveling is fast if you want to go fast, really. If you are not so inclined it's not really that fast.

The leveling of my characters for instance has not been that fast, because on a roleplaying server sometimes I prefer to roleplay instead of grinding my way up to 30. And ultimately a nerf of the easiness to level up will hurt people who take it slow more than those who prefer to have it fast. With the result that it will hurt the former ones much more than the latter ones, except that those who already take it slow do not really need, or wish, for such treatment. And neither do the latter ones, to be fair.

Ultimately leveling speed is something that goes to taste, some people like it slow and some people like it fast, and everybody has their different idea of how leveling should be. And no, we will never agree on which speed is the right one. The only wise thing to do, in my opinion, is to accomodate the various attitudes and try to let them coexist peacefully, without hurting each other.

A way to achieve this is through options, and maybe options that also have some rewards along the way. I find for instance adventure mode to be a boon for my characters, as it increases their xp, but it allows me to get it while I roleplay. I think that for those who would like to stop a moment before going forward an option that sends xp to their pool exclusively, including the xp from rpr ticks, would probably be welcome. Essentially a no-xp option, which I think the server currently lacks.

It would cater not just to those who want to level slowly but also to those who, for whatever reason, prefer to roleplay a low-level character. For instance, if someone wants to remain a resident of Skal but be spared the mark, no-xp could provide a good avenue toward that goal, without compromising irremediably the future of the character or locking them on Skal forever.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Drowboy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:07 pm

Dirty fighting tags you to one apr doesn't it?
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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Lexx » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:12 pm

I personally don't feel it's too high. But having options as stated above for how fast you level if you want to tone it down right the way to being static and staying at a certain level would be a good option to have for those who want such. More options are good and will help cater to different preferences.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:14 pm

I like the fast leveling personally. I also like how dweomercraft lets people make an easy starter set of gear too. This means that no player is at a giant advantage over another based on hours they can sink into the game. I've seen what happens when things get gated behind difficulty of leveling, players will lord their levels over others. Which ended up happening in Skal, for example.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Inordinate » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:23 pm

I like how most of the responses so far seem to have completely missed the point of the post.

Being able to temporarily restrict attacks to one APR a la Dirty Fighting feat for RP instances like throwing a strike seems like a great idea to me.
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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Eira » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:35 pm

Ye-es, to clarify the original point of this post, it has nothing to do with fast leveling and everything do to with wanting to throw out a single punch at someone in a PVP/rp scene 😅

I don't mind the leveling speed that's currently here because I hate leveling and it took me a year to get a single PC to epics.

I just don't want to have to take dirty fighting on every single character to avoid *tries to punch him once* (and then does it six more times with a kick for good measure)

Like I said, I could just emote the punch, but there's also something to say about a scene like:

I'm in a corner having a hushed conversation with someone. A person walks by. Before they return, my PC slaps the other person. When the bystander returns, they see the other person is now barely injured.

It hasn't turned into a full fight since it didn't actually need to since the slap was to make a point, and it removes us having to interrupt whatever we were typing to emote *now has a bruise on his face* (though I tend to do that anyway) but is an example of how we can use mechanics to back up rp going on. Like how people use -cast to represent a long ritual.

I totally understand that it's not 100% necessary.

It just feels like something nice to be able to toggle on or off, and if someone wants to forever go through life with 1 APR toggled on, then hell yeah.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Zenko » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:44 pm

I wonder if you could have a command like -subdual but to just simply limit APR then.
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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by CrystalRL » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:07 pm

Irongron wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:18 am
Personally I much prefer the 'slow-motion' low level adventuring experience to the rapid warzone experience of multiple explosions per second that comes with high levels, precisely because I enjoy an element of roleplay, though I've spoken with a great many that absolutely despise the speed of low level adventuring.
I mean, we have -adventure to cater lower leveling speed, and greater aXP rewards. I've just turned it on after locking myself in Lv6 while I work on getting better gear. If I could use aXP for other things - such as bank it for crafting points - it would be useful.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:00 pm

I just want to give a shout out to all of those people out there which I punched, stabbed or cursed and they did not break into pvp right away, and just role with the RP and keep it all in emotes. Kudos to you all. I wish there was a clearer way to show dominance without god-emoting or pvp. Something that is not to death but IS backed up mechanically.
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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Jagel » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:00 pm

For the xp thing: if something was to be done I’d say it would be good to base it on the princippet of dimishing returns so you won’t end up hitting the slow lvl’ers and the people with sparse playtime when trying to slow down lvl’ing a bit

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:02 pm

Something that is not to death but IS backed up mechanically.
There's subdual.
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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by dallion43 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:12 pm

Quick slot a butter knife. Or any weapon that doesn't get apr and somewhat tematicaly fits your RP.
With that you will get 1-2 attacks in first flurry with funny damage.
If you combine this with some sort of *Hits him to get him back to his senses* message, you probably will achive the desired response.

It does work for me most of the time on high apr PCs :p.

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Slower leveling won't achieve more RP, it will just make it..slow :p. Harder PvE, when PCs have to group to succeed, ?at cetrain dungeons?, ?with more rewards?, might.
Imho, of corse.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:14 pm

dallion43 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:12 pm
Slower leveling won't achieve more RP, it will just make it..slow :p. Harder PvE, when PCs have to group to succeed, ?at cetrain dungeons?, ?with more rewards?, might.
Imho, of corse.
I agree that slower leveling won't achieve more RP. But harder PVE will reward people with friends to circle grind with. It means the people who are good at NWN will outlevel and outclass the people without those resources.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:17 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:02 pm
Something that is not to death but IS backed up mechanically.
There's subdual.
Subdual is very nice and useful and I love it. But it's still pvp. I just want to be able to smack someone without having to first assess whether or not it's the kind of player to role along with the punch or turn it to a silly god-emoting scene on both sides. It takes trust. Dont get me wrong, this is normally not a huge issue and people who come to play in a RP servers are usually the sort to role along and eat a punch or role along with their punch being dodged. But, this is just a shout out to all those who role along with such things and dont turn it into a silly scene or default into pvp right away, subdual or not.

And..
Harder pve also punishes casual players with limited playing times, unpopular timezone and not many friends. This has long been something that the team takes into account. right now I feel like I can do a dungeon with a party and it can be challenging, while the same dungeon can also be soloed but with a much much bigger investment in consumables (this doesnt stand for all dungeons of course, as some are out of the spectrum and are too hard to solo or easy enough to not need a party anyway). I like this paradigm.
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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:57 pm

Itikar wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:07 pm
Leveling is fast if you want to go fast, really. If you are not so inclined it's not really that fast.

The leveling of my characters for instance has not been that fast, because on a roleplaying server sometimes I prefer to roleplay instead of grinding my way up to 30. And ultimately a nerf of the easiness to level up will hurt people who take it slow more than those who prefer to have it fast. With the result that it will hurt the former ones much more than the latter ones, except that those who already take it slow do not really need, or wish, for such treatment. And neither do the latter ones, to be fair.

Ultimately leveling speed is something that goes to taste, some people like it slow and some people like it fast, and everybody has their different idea of how leveling should be. And no, we will never agree on which speed is the right one. The only wise thing to do, in my opinion, is to accomodate the various attitudes and try to let them coexist peacefully, without hurting each other.

A way to achieve this is through options, and maybe options that also have some rewards along the way. I find for instance adventure mode to be a boon for my characters, as it increases their xp, but it allows me to get it while I roleplay. I think that for those who would like to stop a moment before going forward an option that sends xp to their pool exclusively, including the xp from rpr ticks, would probably be welcome. Essentially a no-xp option, which I think the server currently lacks.

It would cater not just to those who want to level slowly but also to those who, for whatever reason, prefer to roleplay a low-level character. For instance, if someone wants to remain a resident of Skal but be spared the mark, no-xp could provide a good avenue toward that goal, without compromising irremediably the future of the character or locking them on Skal forever.
Agreed. There are people our there who can level up fast even at 1 to 5 exp a monster.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Ork » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:04 pm

I would love a combat mode that reduced APR to 1 per round. In fact, why not just give everyone the dirty fighting feat, rename it something indicative of its use, and let people have their slower paced battles.

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Morgy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:12 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:04 pm
I would love a combat mode that reduced APR to 1 per round. In fact, why not just give everyone the dirty fighting feat, rename it something indicative of its use, and let people have their slower paced battles.
I like this idea! Seems the simplest to introduce?

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Anime Sword Fighter » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:29 pm

I also prefer low level fighting and adventuring just because it doesn't just end up like an mmo-grind. It still feels like an adventure compared to just flinging blood and vfx everywhere that storming through dungeons ends up when you wanna grind out a level. I like that the option to grind is there and is efficient with writs. It's nice to be that strong sometimes.

What'd I'd want more than this-
Irongron wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:18 am
I'm still considering a start option that reduces xp gain to a quarter for those that would rather take 2 years over a character than 2 months (or less)
-is just expanded low-level areas for minor adventures to take place. This would probably be a lot of work, but I think a couple new areas dedicated to low level paths that won't necessarily be ground up like pepper immediately by everyone just on that warpath to level. I don't expect this to happen because of how much work making new areas is or just how consuming it would be. But more, non-writ areas but have enough coolness and monster-value to make them fun in. Idk if that makes sense?

I really like how Skal works in creating an area for primarily low-level RP. Not a lot has to be at stake when the people around you are just casually talking about summoning high level demons or being able to hellball each other. It's more reminiscent of DND at the table for me because of that low-level stuff that happens. The slow-paced fighting and low magic. There's a better chance a random level 3 rogue could get lucky and bluff their way out of a botched robbery than in Cordor rather than just being beaten down mercilessly by higher levels through sheer volume

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Re: APR too high for rp

Post by Gouge Away » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:30 pm

*snip* don't need to hear more complaining
Last edited by Gouge Away on Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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