Leveling Speed Discussion

[Nevrus]

The poor one-attack-per-round toggle discussion thread got sandbagged by this tangent so I'm making a split thread to host the discussion in.

How do you feel about leveling speed right now? Is it too fast, too slow, is it mechanically inequitable?

[Party in the forest at midnight]

The more "hardcore" you make a server, the bigger the gap will become between people who "have" and "have not." The people with connections and groups of friends able to grind all the time will leap ahead of people who only occasionally dungeon or who otherwise can only solo due to timezones etc. Like someone else said, it doesn't mean people will RP more.

[Jagel]

Diminishing returns to make grinding less efficient while not punishing those with limited time to play

[Wrips]

It's fine the way it is.

[Anomandaris]

If you want to lvl slower, lvl slower. If you want to lvl faster, lvl faster. I see no issue here. Making it harder won't make things "equal" as no one is forced to roll existing PCs and ppl have lvl 30's all over. So you're just gonna make it harder to get to 30 for those that aren't.

The issue isn't the "system" it's just different playstyles. No matter what system, unless you put an xp cap per week/month/day (which is an awful idea IMO), some ppl are going to grind, some ppl aren't (or as much). I see no issue here.

I'm against limiting others, especially when the flexibility to play "your way" exists. If you want a slow, low lvl adventure style game, you can have that. If you want a high power style game with more PvP etc, you can have that. Seems fine to me, it's a big sandbox.

[Itikar]

Leveling is fast if you want to go fast, really. If you are not so inclined it's not really that fast.

The leveling of my characters for instance has not been that fast, because on a roleplaying server sometimes I prefer to roleplay instead of grinding my way up to 30. And ultimately a nerf of the easiness to level up will hurt people who take it slow more than those who prefer to have it fast. With the result that it will hurt the former ones much more than the latter ones, except that those who already take it slow do not really need, or wish, for such treatment. And neither do the latter ones, to be fair.

Ultimately leveling speed is something that goes to taste, some people like it slow and some people like it fast, and everybody has their different idea of how leveling should be. And no, we will never agree on which speed is the right one. The only wise thing to do, in my opinion, is to accomodate the various attitudes and try to let them coexist peacefully, without hurting each other.

A way to achieve this is through options, and maybe options that also have some rewards along the way. I find for instance adventure mode to be a boon for my characters, as it increases their xp, but it allows me to get it while I roleplay. I think that for those who would like to stop a moment before going forward an option that sends xp to their pool exclusively, including the xp from rpr ticks, would probably be welcome. Essentially a no-xp option, which I think the server currently lacks.

It would cater not just to those who want to level slowly but also to those who, for whatever reason, prefer to roleplay a low-level character. For instance, if someone wants to remain a resident of Skal but be spared the mark, no-xp could provide a good avenue toward that goal, without compromising irremediably the future of the character or locking them on Skal forever.

I apologize for sandbagging the other thread, here are my thoughts, which are more or less unchanged, other than for adding that I agree with who said slower leveling hits the hardest people with limited play-time.

[Nevrus]

My personal experience:

I have only gotten one character to level 30. It took me three months to do so.

The biggest hindrance? Not having a build made for 'staying power,' therefore long-form dungeon soloing was not really an option.

I had to find people to adventure with who had the spare time for the long time commitments of high-level dungeons, and enough of them that the content could be tackled. That created a natural social barrier between me and getting that exp. I played almost daily for this time period, for a few hours at a time and longer on weekends.

And this was WITH extra RH writs to take me through epics.

When I hear people can get it done in two weeks, I must assume there's a few factors they have over me:
They play builds made to solo.
They don't have external time commitments and can play all day.
They have a comprehensive consumable and dungeon plan to maximize their particular build's strengths and do the hardest content they specifically can do.
They have written down somewhere what the average saves, AB, and AC for all the monsters are so they can plan around that.

All of this takes a lot of effort and knowledge, beyond what the average player can hope to achieve.

Therefore, it shouldn't be used as the litmus test for the speed of leveling. Most characters (Non-9 level spellcasters) can't hope to pull this off effectively and spend a lot of their time looking for groups to go adventuring with. In my experience it takes 2-4 days of searching and effort to find a suitable group for any particular band of content from 10+, which means you could be spending hours sitting around near where the writs are given flagging people down for a dungeon run without having any luck.

This results in non-solo builds taking on average 3X longer to level- an expected minimum of 6 weeks of active playing.

High-level dungeons get increasingly hard to find people for, as it becomes completely a matter of "who you know who is high level and active," which makes them run even less frequently, so it could be said to take 8-10 weeks to achieve level 30, if you have average luck.

This is the true expected value for most characters. It seems like a reasonable time investment of about a season of real-world time to achieve.

I think making it harder would actually reduce character velocity significantly. It's less tempting to retire a character when you know you have a six month or two year trek to where they were ahead of you.

The server also doesn't have enough content for being stuck in a band for too long to not get monotonous. It has a TON of content for sure, but a dungeon that's fun for three runs is probably not going to be fun for twenty.

[The Rambling Midget]

It's fine. It used to be a lot slower, but it wasn't as nice as people like to say it was. The grass always looks greener on the other side, but, trust me, we're on the greener grass right now. It's nice to be able to have both a full time job and an epic character at the same time.

The only thing I'd add in is something to disincentivize excessive circle grinding, but that's more about keeping the opportunities open for other players. I used to be more of a purist about it, but now that I'm getting old and tired, I get it. Sometimes you just want to dungeon crawl with your buddies, and, as long as you're staying in character and not detracting from the setting or the fun of others, that's fine.

Anyone who really wants to level slower can refrain from pressing the level up button for as long as they like.

[Irongron]

It may just be psychological, but I find 'not hitting level up' isn't an option, for so long as I can, I will.

I'm also not about to slow down the levelling rate in anything other than an optional selection, and even then, possibly not.

Now that I think about it, it's not that I find levelling too fast overall, but specifically from about 3-12. We have a lot of content for that range and I find, on the surface at least, I quickly outgrow it.

[Ork]

I do think there is good in not hitting all content in one play through. It yields the module some replayability. Recall leveling in the old days - we were always doing kobold mines. Kobold mines for days. It got to the point where I refused to make new characters solely because I knew I had to do the kobold mines all over again.

I do agree that those early levels zip by, but they're also designed that way with how XP works in those first few levels. I will say that lowering XP gains on lower level writs wouldn't be the worst thing to happen. That's usually what leveled me up on this last play through.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think there is some kind of phenomena going on. I'll disagree politely with a lot of folks here.

1. Some might argue that the ease of leveling (via the writ system) evens the playing field. I think this is true, for the most part, because writs reward any style of play, whereas previously circling grinding (and general grinding) really required a lot of time commitment, and player cohesion. You really had to track down some likeminded people who would go off adventuring with you for any length of time. Especially once you got into that level 15+ area.

However, I think we've just replaced this with therace to level 30. This is a problem because of the new meta of Arelith having better build knowledge and mechanics mastery, which also now means -

2. PvP is viewed more as endgame content. Everyone, I bet everyone, has stories of random level 30 characters suddenly emerging from the woodwork and trying to dictate roleplay. Trying to be influential. Trying to start relationships. What should have been organically occurring from levels 1-30, is instead changed to just being level 30.

And you'll see forum posts that indicate this - i.e. "I never go into town except to get new writs", "I focus on writs until epic", "I focus on RP having doing my 3 writs."

The system, not the culture, makes the emphasis go Writs > RP. Anyone who wants to roleplay, can. But mechanically, you're not rewarded. So what we see is narrative rewards / mechanical rewards being segregated along levels.

I'll get all my "mechanical" rewards out of the way - aka get to level 30.

Then I'll start focusing on my "narrative" rewards - aka roleplay.

I've overhead numerous in-game conversations about "factions not being strong enough to have influence", or "x, y, z needs to prove themselves" or "we'll only worry about x, y, z when they're formidable." Which all hints that "these characters aren't max level, or near max, so we they're somehow mechanically (or narratively) lesser."

3. The forums isn't representative of the entire community, and neither is this post, so we can't waffle about how endemic this largely unhealthy perspective is, but it is much more prominent than ever before BECAUSE Writs are so accessible, and so widespread.

4. I think options for "leveling slower" or whatever, would be nice. But I don't think they'll achieve anything beyond the individual because it won't be widespread adoption among the community. Arelith is now a fast-leveling environment, where you can cycle through half-a-dozen epics in a year, through what I would consider "average playing time."

I don't really know if this is such a problem that requires solution, but I do think it's a new playing environment. I don't know if it is a situation of grass/grass-is-greener. It's just different. But I think we'd be kidding ourselves if the Writ/XP/Level changes haven't had severe psychological shifts in how people approach playing Arelith, and how characters perceive the in-game world around them.

edit: I think it's super problematic that the writ system is tied to faction roleplay. As long as assassins/pirates/Radiant Heart writs offer XP into epics, whereas the Standard Writs do not, you're going to see a benevolent abuse of these factions to have an easier leveling experience. I think the ring/belt/whatever is just icing on the cake.

Because there's inadvertent messaging - "wanna still get writs into epics? play a paladin." I think it should all be abolished, or faction writs should only give AXP, and no XP or gold.

[AstralUniverse]

I like the steps which were taken to lower the gap between people who can level fast and people who are less able to, for whatever reasons.

That said, everything is too fast, for everyone in equal measure imo, as a result of these steps to a point where I really feel like exp gains should be lowered all across the board from most sources in order to create a general slow down to all sorts of players in equal measure, starting with instant exp from writs and mobs.

[Dalenger]

Personally, I find that my #1 frustration when leveling is finding people of a similar level to party with. At really early levels its not usually /too/ difficult to find a party (just sit next to the writ person or stand by the sewer grate) but especially at later levels, it can be near impossible to find leveling buddies without coordinating via discord or whatever. I can name /many/ times when I only have 90 minutes to play and really want to get a writ in, but alas, stood next to the writ guy for 40 minutes and then decided to go play minecraft (or whatever) instead.

I know this starts to approach ooc-ness, but one thing that I would love to see in a built in match-making system for finding people of a similar level who want to go dungeon crawling. Perhaps a mechanic could be added to the writ person or you could flag yourself as "I am [name] looking for a party to do x writ" so that other like-minded people could find you and send you a speedy. That way you don't have to choose between sitting in an empty nomad looking for a party and engaging in RP around the city (or wherever). It could be a fully opt-in system, so people who don't want to advertise their level don't have to. Just my two sense.

[dallion43]

Slower leveling won't achieve more RP, it will just make it..slow :p. Harder PvE, when PCs have to group to succeed, ?at cetrain dungeons?, ?with more rewards?, might.
Imho, of corse.

I agree that slower leveling won't achieve more RP. But harder PVE will reward people with friends to circle grind with. It means the people who are good at NWN will outlevel and outclass the people without those resources.

I think that adding a completely optional lvl 4 floor to Cordor Crypts optimized for a group of PCs that would go to Cordor Crypts to lvl(meaning similar xp mobs, just more/harder, with 4 instead of 2 boss chests at the end) would break anything existing.
I personally would spend more time looking for a group for that dungeon. Not because of the double chests, but because that dungeon run could end up as an epic group prevail tale to tell and be excited about it for a while. Of course this is just me.

The above is just an example.

--------

Regarding lvling speed, whatever mechanical constraints will be imposed, it will eventually be up to the individual. If one wants to lvl faster he will find a way to lvl fast to his comfort zone, be it 20 or 30.
Currently, writs allow people with very limited time to lvl at somewhat noticeable speed and try various RP/build concepts.
If it makes people with more free time then the people above lvl even faster? Sure. But, I have a hard time seeing what real difference does it make.

RP vise, for me personally it is hard to justify a lvl 3 that has difficulty killing sewer rats but he RPs that he was X and came to Cordor/Etc because of Y, unless X is a farmer and Y is his farm cows died.
So I tend to lvl fast at least to lvl 10, where the fact that my PCs story about graduating from fighting academy or whatever sounds more..viable than it sounds at lvl 3.

I know this starts to approach ooc-ness, but one thing that I would love to see in a built in match-making system for finding people of a similar level who want to go dungeon crawling.

+1000.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

The way gaming is today, I think the way otnis is the best you are going to get. I never make it to level 30, but i know some people who got shut down by an epic on their first character and have since then done nothing but super grind to 30 before doing significant time sinks into rp.

Even our players who are both excellent RPers and builders and PvPers will hold the rhetoric that you need build and skill to back up your rp, and this rhetoric goes back years ago and from people who do RP there way to 30 and don't super grind (still level up fast due to experience and skill though). We kind of have moved from the era of "slaptisck old arelith builds" to everyone planning for level 30 and I dont think that has to be a bad thing, or shut down. Whay we do need to do is be more pro low level RP culture wise without having to shoot down the fun and openness/helpfulness of the building community. And i feel for the most part, we actually do a decent job of doing that with our culture that tries to make sure everyone has fun. But it does seem a little harder to make same level friends at the lower points.. Unles you are Skal

[Halibutthead]

i'm of the opinion that arelith was a lot "better" with slower leveling. I also believe that arelith would not survive as we know it if we were to change the server back. i have strong feelings about this, but i'm not of the mind that these feelings should necessarily be heeded. I've been around a while. since shortly after arelith launched. my time here has seen years of play and years of absence as i played more competitive games. I feel like i've come to respect arelith as what it is: a very casual game to be played seriously.

so, what is arelith like with slower leveling speed? mostly the same, actually. prior to writs, big buffs (like summon overhauls, and reworks of entire classes), and gold bonuses, arelith was played mostly the same. people still RP'd (though, arguably a bit more in lower levels), and people still liked to grind in circles with little interaction. but the difference was, as i mentioned, that RP in the early levels.

Right now, it is perfectly reasonable to get to level 20 in this game without your character having any meaningful interaction with another. While that was possible before, it was highly unlikely that you would want to stick around, because it wasn't about gaining levels so you could become more powerful, the community focused more on the role play. I know, I know, someone's going to try to jump down my throat about it, but it's true. you simply did not play arelith if your goal was to get to max level and pwn nubs cuz lol. it would take you months. it took some people years to get their first level 30s. if you were just trying to get 30 for your build, you were probably going to get bored long before you got close.

now, this isn't to say the RP was 'better' or 'worse,' because it wasn't. it was simply different. back then, your level 9 character probably had 40+ hours of playtime on it, unless you were grinding hard (then, maybe 25 or so). today, if you're playing 2-3 hours a day, you could probably have that same character to 9 within 15 easy peasy, and that's a generous estimate. so, what difference does that make? i'm not claiming better RP, nor better players, simply slower leveling.

the difference is: commitment. you weren't hopping onto arelith to level (though i've always found the dungeons fun to explore, most of the monsters interesting, and the environments fantastic), you were hopping on to roleplay a character, because you simply were not getting those power boosts as often. you had to commit to this character to get any amount of power, and in order to get any entertainment out of them, you had to actually play with others.

in other words: people who logged into arelith dreaming of becoming powerful pvp based super-winners would find something else to do. the level based carrot-on-a-stick was a bit too far to chase if that's all you were interested in. people who hung around for a while were (almost) exclusively people who wanted to roleplay first.

today, things are different. it's easy to get to high 20s without committing to roleplay (or even to a character). depending on your build, you can do it alone. this isn't inherently bad, since it allows people to enjoy the module (and they're not hurting anyone), and it gives them the same "carrot-on-a-stick" that they expect to see in an ARPG: the next level. it works, it's enjoyable, no one is hurt. it's just different.

a long time ago, if you ran into someone that you met last month, you could expect roughly the same relative power to you when you meet them again. today, if you miss a few days of playing, your leveling buddies are leaps ahead of you. the difference here is purely on how fast you reach new levels.

back then, powerful characters were powerful characters, and they didn't need to be powerful builds (but oh, boy, did that help). today? why should i think of another character as "powerful" when i can achieve the same feats within a few weeks? the gap has been reduced so far that it pushes out any idea of long-term conflict RP because relative power is short term up until 30. if you make an enemy with a level 5 today, next week, he'll be throwing an epic spell your direction. it's easier on your heart to just avoid it.

all of this to say, things are different, and it's not the quality of RP that's changed, just the relevance of it. low level characters are entirely irrelevant in today's arelith, and that's just... how it is. much like many ARPGs and MMOs, the game is to get to max level (or close) to really start your RP.

but if we were to change that? if we were to remove writs, revert changes, and bring the grind back to where it was before? we would likely see a great exodus of players who just want to get those epic feats and those pretty abilities tied to high levels. it wouldn't make arelith better, it wouldn't improve RP. it would be different, though.

[Shadowy Reality]

It is bad.

RP suffers because most people will do their writs first and then focus on RP. I know I do this. 3 writs can take almost 2 hours to do, which can be your whole session at times. Writs exp more or less scales with levels, this means that it doesn't take that much longer to attain a new level the higher you are, which it should.

I want to be able to party with people, but this makes it hard, as people doing writs vs people not doing their writs will level at immensely different rates.

Cut the number of Writs per day to either 2 or 1. Overall cut the Writ exp per day in half (from what it is now, this may mean increasing single Writ exp, if the number of Writs is lowered), do not scale for higher levels. It will sill be a boon without making the leveling time almost linear.

[The Rambling Midget]

I know this starts to approach ooc-ness, but one thing that I would love to see in a built in match-making system for finding people of a similar level who want to go dungeon crawling.

I don't think it has to be OOC at all. For those in writ level range, you already have agents in place all over, and there could simply be an option to ask for and offer help to those doing a similar writ, at which point the agent tells whoever asks who's doing what.

You could have similar systems in place at local adventurers' guilds in sufficiently large settlements across the island.

I kind thought this was what that building near the Cordor dock was supposed to be.

[Drowboy]

If you want to lvl slower, lvl slower. If you want to lvl faster, lvl faster. I see no issue here. Making it harder won't make things "equal" as no one is forced to roll existing PCs and ppl have lvl 30's all over. So you're just gonna make it harder to get to 30 for those that aren't.

The issue isn't the "system" it's just different playstyles. No matter what system, unless you put an xp cap per week/month/day (which is an awful idea IMO), some ppl are going to grind, some ppl aren't (or as much). I see no issue here.

I'm against limiting others, especially when the flexibility to play "your way" exists. If you want a slow, low lvl adventure style game, you can have that. If you want a high power style game with more PvP etc, you can have that. Seems fine to me, it's a big sandbox.

This. There's a difference between 'I want to play a certain way' and 'I want everyone to have to play a certain way.'

[CorsicanDoge]

I try to laser focus with my builds instead of slapdash because I know there'll never, ever, ever be take-backs barring a really drastic change in current systems and everyone gets a relevel as a result. So for Arelith, I do love to bust out spreadsheets and run through PFCC just I don't ever have to delevel and do the grind all over again.

It just seems like barring social RP and breaking ice with people, if you aren't a decent level you're going to easily be shoved around or you're forced to stand on the side-lines while people have the actual fun. So I sunk a week or two, made some cursory ties with the local factions, and then circle grinded myself to death. While not exactly the 'no rp until 30' meme it's pretty close to that.

The grind isn't particularly enthralling to me, I do the circle grind to thirty to enable myself the most RP possible down the road and be able to shunt myself against people that have hostile intent. I've seen mouthy low levels and they just get disintergrated. I've seen brawls before and the people off in that fight often aren't non-epics as far as I know.

I've also seen slower leveling servers and while the non-max levels do try to do things, people that actually do have high levels do use their clout they've acquired and it can typically be the ultimate end to any conflict if it's mechanically lopsided. Here I'm just thankful I can get the dungeon out of the way and do what's actually fun which is playing a role with other people.

I'm not afraid of losing either but the math on "low level guy vs high level guy" will never add up unless you add high level guys to your side of the equation.

[Drowboy]

The above post is also right. The sheer number of epics and 30s on Arelith means to survive you need to level.

I know of several conflicts, even recently, where one side made a very clear, very obvious, and very sad choice to basically ignore conflict with the bulk of the other side to go and try picking on the lowbies.

Forcing people to very suddenly stop leveling at a decent catch-up pace will just make this worse. (It was worse in the past.)

And, as in the past(and now), there will always be no-lifers with infinite free time spending 20 hours online a day shooting up to 30 while everyone else languishes. There's no fix to that that doesn't turn Arelith into a fixed level server, or a server like Ravenloft, where leveling is mega slow and eventually you perma inevitably, or a server like Cormyr where you can only level via DM XP after a threshold.

Of course, as you'll notice, those servers with the carefully curated systems to prevent both the speed and number of high levels? They already exist, and we aren't, by and large, playing there.

[Ebonstar]

we already have a toggle to slow leveling down the adventure xp one. it puts 2/3 xp into the rp tick pool if i recall the divide right.

maybe we need one more option that puts all xp into the pool amount and make that the default.

Then if your a casual player you can request the dms to turn it off therefore giving you more straight forward xp and balances out against the daily grinders. something that can be tracked via logs to not be exploited either

the play every day players still earn the xp it just fosters rp as well as killing from the get go and we still have the earn no xp until you level up is already in place to stop pool fillers trying to game the system.

this system also already has diminishing returns to lessen the grind once the xp return would be a one it would be a zero which from the rp standpoint makes perfect sense. Once you are level ten do you really learn something new about that rat or bat or sewer ooze? No you just know how to kill it effectively so you truly dont need xp from it.

[Ebonstar]

The above post is also right. The sheer number of epics and 30s on Arelith means to survive you need to level.

I know of several conflicts, even recently, where one side made a very clear, very obvious, and very sad choice to basically ignore conflict with the bulk of the other side to go and try picking on the lowbies.

Forcing people to very suddenly stop leveling at a decent catch-up pace will just make this worse. (It was worse in the past.)

And, as in the past(and now), there will always be no-lifers with infinite free time spending 20 hours online a day shooting up to 30 while everyone else languishes. There's no fix to that that doesn't turn Arelith into a fixed level server, or a server like Ravenloft, where leveling is mega slow and eventually you perma inevitably, or a server like Cormyr where you can only level via DM XP after a threshold.

Of course, as you'll notice, those servers with the carefully curated systems to prevent both the speed and number of high levels? They already exist, and we aren't, by and large, playing there.

those servers you mentioned are also low magic low level intent servers so they are niche already so dont appeal to the general mindset

[Baron Saturday]

I know this starts to approach ooc-ness, but one thing that I would love to see in a built in match-making system for finding people of a similar level who want to go dungeon crawling.

I don't think it has to be OOC at all. For those in writ level range, you already have agents in place all over, and there could simply be an option to ask for and offer help to those doing a similar writ, at which point the agent tells whoever asks who's doing what.

You could have similar systems in place at local adventurers' guilds in sufficiently large settlements across the island.

I kind thought this was what that building near the Cordor dock was supposed to be.

I've suggested previously that the writ system should work with the expedition system, which never really got used when it was introduced. I think it's a missed opportunity.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

those servers you mentioned are also low magic low level intent servers so they are niche already so dont appeal to the general mindset

Coming from Ravenloft, you're actually incorrect. The people who grind get mega OP compared to people who RP instead. There is a giant divide between haves and have nots. And the haves keep playing it because they can chill in the mist camp and socialize in between waiting for dungeon spawns to build. They kit out their friends, grind them to 20, and the cycle continues. There are a lot of things I like about the server, but the result of this atmosphere just breaks my heart every time I play there and gives me far more stress than a video game ought to.

When I came to Arelith, I found it really refreshing that people can't lord levels or equipment over other people here. It's relatively easy for someone to start playing and get into the game world, and not get completely stomped on by 10 year old characters who have the best equipment. The dweomercraft system is brilliant and a fantastic gold sink, it allows players to get a good starter set of gear, and then goes on to tax people who want to get an extra stat onto something.

To me one of the biggest appeals of Arelith is it's easy to get into. You don't need to fall into a clique and have people help you level or gear you and OOC tell you the server mechanics inside out. Arelith lets you make a character and just go and do your thing. The server story is pretty easy to get into I find, the amount of tools players have to communicate and interact with the world allow for people to learn what's going on and get involved, or to just go and start their own thing.

I second the sentiment that if people want to level slowly, they have that option.
I also disagree that people don't RP until 30. Some people are that way, sure. But personally for me (and I've heard some of my friends say this too), the RP that happens while leveling can really set the mood for a character.