Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

[Irongron]

Whether players are mad at me for approving the original, or either of the two consecutive revisions, thank me, or not, l really don't mind, so long as we can remain civil with one another.

My 'climbdown' was not reluctant, and was very much my own choice. My preferred option for gifts was the first iteration, and one I would still prefer to see.

Having one major gift for all races seems eminently sensible, with races themselves being adjusted if needs be. Saying races gets x baked in stat adjustments, but varying number of optionals seems needlessly convoluted, whereas minor gifts, with their emphasis on flavour over mechanics I still see as a better fit for Arelith.

In my years on Arelith I've seen stats just piled onto characters, and gifts are just one small part. With 3 stat items now being the norm characters are far, far more powerful than they once were, and the module easier as a result. EcL 0 races losing 2 points I don't see as the major unbalancing, game-breaking change some framed it as.

But.. I reversed my preferred option within 24 hours (alongside drow gifts) because it was clear that few, if any, players shared my view, and that it made a good number unhappy. I wouldn't have done so if I felt the change was an essential adjustment, there can sometimes be bitter pills we must swallow, after all, but this was not one of them.


The second iteration of humans on ECL1 I thought we could live with for a few months while gifts were rethought, and I was interested to see the results. However I was hardly wedded to the idea (as i was with the original) and both players here on the forums, and on staff went to some lengths to present data to me on why this was a misstep.

They are polite, fact driven, and not for a moment abusive or threatening. Had I reacted to this by digging my heels in and refusing to adjust would have been a personal failure of leadership on my part, and I freely admit, one I could easily have made.

I do my best to listen to staff and players, alongside heeding my own counsel, as I believe my position here necessitates, but I cannot for a moment masquerade as the ultimate Arelith guru who will always make right call, and anyone who expects that is definitely either going be angry or disappointed.

Personally, as always, I am extremely grateful to our staff, who time and again help ensure Arelith remains on track.

[CNS]

I don’t think a reduction in gifts as a goal is the worst thing. If that is a potential goal I’m sure a thought through way of implementing it could be found.

Balance between races is really just a way of tweaking what you want to see more or less of. The real crux is ensuring we don’t eliminate class options that really should be available. This is mainly down to the balancing of class features and requirements being done in a world of ecl 0 getting two gifts. Tweaking things like epic feat requirements (epic dodge, blinding speed, barb rages primarily) to work in a world where the bulk of our classes have less primary stats.

[Arigard]

I think the update was good in general.

The removal of DEX defense from Balagarns worries me though. That single spell used to basically make dex builds redundant & even with a cooldown (which I hope is the same cooldown for knockdown, because getting iron horned and then knocked down right after would be ridiculous), being prone for a full round is enough time for most dex builds to either get critted to death, summoned to death, or simply nuked to death by other spells.

The issue with dex builds wasn't high AC on it's own. High AC is the only thing true dex builds -can- really turn to. They don't have good damage (outside of sneaks), they don't have super high HP, their saves are usually bad outside of reflex. AC and sustain was their only real go to and even then on most dex builds you still need improved expertise to hit the 'safe' numbers.

The issue was and still is 3 level dips of monk and divine (BG/Pally). Monk dips across the board are broken, scale it with level already. Please, I beg you, solve the real problem. Getting 3 AC, evasion, discipline dump, tumble dump and deflect arrows is still way better as a dip than anything else out there for 3 levels. Getting 8+ constant AC you can't lose even flatfooted for 3 level investment? + crazy APR and opening up a whole load of specific weapons for 3 levels? Ridiculous. Which other dip gives you 95% of the benefits of the class for 3 levels and no feat investment? None, even divine dips require three feats to get everything out of them.

High dex builds are not the true problem. Wisdom dump monk builds are the problem. Please do the correct thing and allow the dex builds to be what they are supposed to be and target the real source of the crime, people picking up an entire class (monk) of benefits for 3 levels.

Keep in mind that certain races get str reduction, so for things like gnomes and halflings you're basically bringing in a spell that is racially enhanced to screw them up. Getting an almost guaranteed disable from a lvl 2 spell, especially in a meta where 2-3 spells, or crits can take you out of a fight, is going to discourage many people from playing dex builds going forward and then on top of that certain races because they'll consistently keep getting immobilized by a single spell.

------

Please just solve the problem and scale dips by level already. That's the core problem here across the board. So target it, deal with it properly and cut the head off the snake rather than trying to patch up all the places it's bit you.

[Xerah]

That's a lot of words for without considering what we can actually do. This isn't possible to do in any meaningful way without damaging normal monks.

[Arigard]

That's a lot of words for without considering what we can actually do. This isn't possible to do in any meaningful way without damaging normal monks.

So you can hack pretty much any other part of the game, changing spells, abilities, races, skills, ....make entire new classes... etc..

But it's impossible to tweak monk? I find that hard to believe somehow.

[AstralUniverse]

- Please leave Warlocks and dont take away Iron Horn because it's their only counter against high touch ac dexers they really cant dps reliably in any other way. The spell can be made to respect KD immunity if it doesnt already and it would really make it fair.

True strike potions.

That's exactly the problem. you need to be holding Darts of Championship for +15 ab, and then drink a TS pot and then the dexer still likely has 25% dodge with concealment and STILL your dps on them is too slow and inconsistent and relies on a 6 sec long potion to hit things. That's not a counter to dexers.

[Ork]

20 BAB + 6 dex + 20 weapon is 46. I think max touch AC is like 52. Also a Champion Dart doesn't improve anything if you're drinking a truestrike potion. Truestrike hits the 20 AB cap, and weapon enchantment is calculated into that cap. Having a +15 dart and drinking a truestrike potion is no different than having a bronze dart and drinking a truestrike potion. If you're worried about hitting dexers on your warlock, there is a solution- invest in dex instead of con.

[AstralUniverse]

If you're worried about hitting dexers on your warlock, there is a solution- invest in dex instead of con.

Investing in dex instead of con as a fiendlock is a huge mistake and you know it. The fact that weapon ab doesnt stack with true strike (which I forgot and thanks for the reminder) supports my argument even more that warlocks got little to no tools vs dexers.

If you're using TS potion every 2 casts of Flare you'll have 75% chance to hit and then another 75% chance to hit through concealment. You attack 2 times in a round. This is okay except that you need to use an expensive player-made-only potion every round so its not so okay I think.

It's something I wouldnt bring up in a feedback thread because I just dont think warlock need love if it means investing time into the class (which will eventually be replaced by a real hardcoded class in nwn, I hear) but if this 'love' means not touching them at all and it gives them their needed buff against dexers, just please leave as is. And I wouldnt mind if Balargn's would to respect KD immunity and trigger KD immumity like any KD.

[Ebonstar]

ok so i read all the posts after i posted my opinion, which as usual was taken with the shut up you are an idiot tone but then i found this and it seems many of the posts reflect how this following statement has been and is mostly ignored from the Wiki.


It is also recommended that you have a reason behind each of your choices. Players are discouraged from taking things for purely mechanical or power gaming reasons.

These two sentences seem to answer alot of the posts who were irritated and how so much now is about mechanical and power over what Ive always thought was Areliths core value of Roleplay over Rollplay

Just a thought, but one former server i knew had the strictest rules that all characters must make sense in the Roleplay aspect over the Rollplay[mechanics] aspect.

You would see hundred of character concepts get thrown out for review and the team[ which were a group who did nothing but approve characters} would give an approved or ask questions if there were obvious choices that slipped across the line.

Several of these were always tell me how you would play this character without this race or class combination. Those that were able to show how it could be done as a human with nothing special or a base elf/hin/dwarf etc were then asked why they applied for the character for only mechanical benefits being why you needed the special race Sun/drow/wood Elves , Ghostwise hin, Duergar etc.

99% of those characters never got played due to being a concept due to purely mechanical motivation rather than RP that fit the setting.

Now i never see Arelith getting into this kind of team oversight, but perhaps we as players should stop thinking about being the Uber End game supergod because this character can beat anyone in pvp, and revisit that above phrase stated in the Wiki.

Sometimes the Story truly should be more important. just my two cents

[Drowboy]

Quick q, does that server still exist

[Inordinate]

Just a thought, but one former server i knew had the strictest rules that all characters must make sense in the Roleplay aspect over the Rollplay[mechanics] aspect.

You would see hundred of character concepts get thrown out for review and the team[ which were a group who did nothing but approve characters} would give an approved or ask questions if there were obvious choices that slipped across the line.

Several of these were always tell me how you would play this character without this race or class combination. Those that were able to show how it could be done as a human with nothing special or a base elf/hin/dwarf etc were then asked why they applied for the character for only mechanical benefits being why you needed the special race Sun/drow/wood Elves , Ghostwise hin, Duergar etc.

99% of those characters never got played due to being a concept due to purely mechanical motivation rather than RP that fit the setting.

This supposed utopia of a server sounds tiring to be a part of and run. Being so chiefly concerned about how other people play in the sandbox, micromanaging who gets to play and setting up strict guidelines for how it's done only leads to burn out, elitism, and eventually a dead community.

"Play the game how I want you to play it" is what this boils down to. It's an extremely unhealthy mindset to hold when approaching communities like Arelith and you're better off concerning yourself with trying to create stories within the community instead of trying to make a stand on a hill no one wants to be on.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Whether players are mad at me for approving the original, or either of the two consecutive revisions, thank me, or not, l really don't mind, so long as we can remain civil with one another.

My 'climbdown' was not reluctant, and was very much my own choice. My preferred option for gifts was the first iteration, and one I would still prefer to see.

Having one major gift for all races seems eminently sensible, with races themselves being adjusted if needs be. Saying races gets x baked in stat adjustments, but varying number of optionals seems needlessly convoluted, whereas minor gifts, with their emphasis on flavour over mechanics I still see as a better fit for Arelith.

In my years on Arelith I've seen stats just piled onto characters, and gifts are just one small part. With 3 stat items now being the norm characters are far, far more powerful than they once were, and the module easier as a result. EcL 0 races losing 2 points I don't see as the major unbalancing, game-breaking change some framed it as.

But.. I reversed my preferred option within 24 hours (alongside drow gifts) because it was clear that few, if any, players shared my view, and that it made a good number unhappy. I wouldn't have done so if I felt the change was an essential adjustment, there can sometimes be bitter pills we must swallow, after all, but this was not one of them.


The second iteration of humans on ECL1 I thought we could live with for a few months while gifts were rethought, and I was interested to see the results. However I was hardly wedded to the idea (as i was with the original) and both players here on the forums, and on staff went to some lengths to present data to me on why this was a misstep.

They are polite, fact driven, and not for a moment abusive or threatening. Had I reacted to this by digging my heels in and refusing to adjust would have been a personal failure of leadership on my part, and I freely admit, one I could easily have made.

I do my best to listen to staff and players, alongside heeding my own counsel, as I believe my position here necessitates, but I cannot for a moment masquerade as the ultimate Arelith guru who will always make right call, and anyone who expects that is definitely either going be angry or disappointed.

Personally, as always, I am extremely grateful to our staff, who time and again help ensure Arelith remains on track.

I think toning down the power level across the board is a great idea. I just think it needs a wipe to go with it, not only to fix this aspect but to be used as a chance to fix several other issues with arelith all around. It would cause headaches all over the place no doubt, inlcuding another 9 page thread, but at least the end product would be worth it. Trying to balance gifts without going the whole 9 yards would cause the same amount of headaches and create a haves vs have nots, which means less character rotation and overall stagnation for the server.

If well planned, a wipe could not only retain the same amount of players you have now it would probably attract new ones too.

*ducks under the desk to avoid incoming hate*

[NauVaseline]

*ducks under the desk to avoid incoming hate*

Desk won't be good enough

[Ork]

Vault wipes kill servers

[Seven Sons of Sin]

We've addressed that the current Epic Sacrifice and Rewards system does not incentivize rolling IF

- you play surfacers, and,
- don't want to play a UDer.

Minor and Normal Rewards, which comprise the majority of Epic Rewards, honestly don't give you anything if you want your next character to be a surfacer.

You want higher turn over, offer something more than what is currently. It's difficult to balance, but we can probably tweak a few things to get more -delete_character.

[AstralUniverse]

You dont need a all around vault wipe to prevent grandfathering of characters post-update of "everyone 1 major gift or less" (which is an interesting thought on it's own that really benefits high +3 ecl races but it could be what we need. I dont know) because time will play it's role same way it did when we went down to two major gifts from three.

[Jencent]

Vault wipes kill servers

Why? I don't see any reason to not play on Arelith even after wipe. (I have experience of deleting Characters with items like +1 to all stats + 2 to all skills +5% Res to all elem and so on.) This all just in case if you think i have nothing to lose.

[Ebonstar]

Quick q, does that server still exist

it ran for years until the server leads took it back to PnP where it had all evolved from to begin with

and @inordinate it was even brought up not as an idea to bring to Arelith but as an example of what we have written in the Wiki gives the same thing but on the players own ethics or lack their of

@Ork Wipes can be healthy and also gives everyone a fresh playing field as long as they are announced ahead of time to let players plan for a new concept that they might never have time to play because of their existing characters being bogged up in endless loops

[Ebonstar]

Vault wipes kill servers

Why? I don't see any reason to not play on Arelith even after wipe. (I have experience of deleting Characters with items like +1 to all stats + 2 to all skills +5% Res to all elem and so on.) This all just in case if you think i have nothing to lose.

god forbid everyone starting fresh maybe in a new starting area to shake things up ruts are bad afterall

[Gouge Away]

I think a vault wipe would likely see the status quo re-assert itself with very similar characters under different names quite quickly. A vault wipe isn't going to delete all of the faction discords and isn't going to change that some people know this game and server inside and out, have seemingly unlimited time to play and can have a fully geared level 30 in a few weeks. A lot of these hardcore players make a new character every few months, you think a vault wipe is going to slow them down?

The chaotic neutral side of me would love to see a vault wipe just to see how this panned out but I honestly don't think it would solve any power imbalance issues. The amount of time you have to play and your ability to make both IC and OOC connections are far more important than a few stats' mechanical advantage.

I think attrition works pretty well. If it didn't there would be tons of weavemasters still around. Characters do get boring to play eventually even if they're a little more powerful than the current meta.

[The Rambling Midget]

god forbid everyone starting fresh maybe in a new starting area to shake things up ruts are bad afterall

Yeah, but then you're giving the middle finger to that portion of the playerbase that was just finally getting into their groove on a character. It doesn't work on PWs, because we're not in time with each other.

[Drowboy]

Also what do you suspect it will fix? The mechanics won't change out of being a 3.x d20 system, which are remarkably easy to solve for good builds if you pay any attention.

There'll be a week, maybe, where everyone's on 'equal lowbie footing' but a wipe does nothing to destroy ooc friend groups or ooc knowledge, so any split of haves or have note (dubious in any case) will just get worse, not better, when the have nots of the server are level ten and the rest are pushing 30 at day 5.

[Ork]

It's happened countless times before. Arelith survives one the corpses of thousands of PWs. Many of them died due to vault wipes. History validates my stance.

[Irongron]

If at some point I do decide to lower gifts to one per race, irrespective of ECL, it will not entail a vault-wipe.

I understand why some people think it would be called for, it has, after all, been suggested a great many times before. I'm not going to dismiss anyone rudely for doing so again, but will point out that no, that will absolutely never happen.

I can only really repeat what I said about grandfathering before, it absolutely does happen, and goes both ways. Despite the impression one might get from some mechanical focused post on this forum and elsewhere, Arelith is not a competitive game, it is an ongoing collective story, if anyone thinks they 'win' it by having a more powerful character, they are going to be very disappointed. I've watched the story of Arelith be shaped over the last 15 years, and there is an almost zero correlation between powerfully built characters and those that leave a lasting impression on the server.

We don't need a vault wipe, and never will, because relative power between characters? It is not the driving factor at play here, aside from a short lived PvP guilds that pop up from time to time, and very soon burn out.

[jomonog]

I think its good its gone back the way it was with humans although I also support the general idea if trying to tone down the advantages humans get to increase diversity and also offset removing rewards from outcast.

Perhaps that result could also be achieved by giving all other races +1 skillpoint per level? It also has the advantage generally of addressing skill creep caused by changes like climb as well as a slight nerf to human.