Rogues v. Pixies and why Rogues need some love

[Nitro]

"Hey guys, I heard you're going to RDD, can I tag along? I'm great at killing dragons"
"Nah sorry, we're waiting for a rogue and don't want to bloat the party too much"

snip

Honestly this post just seems very elitist. Is it bad roleplay because people don't want to have to micromanage their dungeon delving groups? Because people want to be able to have fun without having to wait around for hours at the whim of whatever rogues may or may not be around at their timezone to be able to actually experience server areas and get loot?

How is it more roleplay inclusive to ask a rogue to tag along into a dungeon than a wizard or sorcerer?

Why does rogues deserve to be the only ones who can collect loot? Is there some inherent part of the class that makes them more suited than any other to get djinn uther or theurglass? Rogues can do all that right now, a wizard being able to do the same doesn't take that away from you, just lets more people enjoy that aspect of the server.

So lets allow fighters, and all classes, enjoy that aspect of the server? Unless i am missing something, this must naturally be your conclusion. If not, then why wizards and sorcerers deserve it more than these other classes? They already have knock spell, for starters. Speaking as someone currently with a wizard alt, its a joke. Not only i can get in lvl 26 a summon with 57 AC (with minimum buffs) + epic dodge, i can also get all runic chests (so far).

There are many ways to have fighters make sense ICly to be able to open runic chests.

Yeah it's called bashing the chest.

You'll note I never argued for giving everyone access to everything. Just to not reduce the access people currently have to things they currently have access to. (but yes I actually wouldn't mind if more classes had options to open up runic chests, that would be nice).

[Aniel]

I'm simply unable to understand why people don't like the pixie. Nerfing the pixie just makes the server less enjoyable. I can't think of a single positive from doing it.

The idea of needing to get a rogue to pick locks certainly isn't fun. Locks as a mechanic certainly aren't fun. My own personal preference would be removing locks and traps. That'd make the pixie much less of a must-have too.

On a more serious note, I have played mages. Most of my mages have used the pixie, but not all. Even if it were nerfed I'd probably still use it on most of my characters simply because it's fun to RP with a familiar that can talk.

I've also played plenty of non-mages. It's SUPER easy to gear up to +50 open lock and disable trap as a non-rogue. It just isn't fun to do. On my warlock, I very rarely bothered to item swap for runic chests. I'd usually just eldritch blast them and loot the remains because it wasn't worth bothering to lockpick and disable. I just don't see what fun they are. I think it's very silly to say you should need a rogue to get the loot at the end of a dungeon you've cleared. You certainly don't say "sorry, this loot requires a ranger to access", or wizard/cleric/druid/whatever. It's just really arbitrary.

My most recent main and level 30 was a mundane rogue/fighter, 24/6. They used pretty heavily into disable trap and open lock. They carried around +10/+12 lockpicks to access very high DC locks.

It was nice to be able to just open chests and collect loot, but I don't think it added anything substantial. It just meant an annoying mechanic was absent. And really, I shouldn't have invested that much into open lock or disable trap. It would have been correct to invest one point into each and carry a second set of gear just like everyone else.

I wish I understood why people cared so much about the pixie, or why people think locks and traps on chests are fun.

[Drogo Gyslain]

I think this ship has sailed, unfortunately and part of it is my fault as I did start to indeed focus on something as trivial as the pixie.

My original intent was to look to see about getting some luster and shine for mechanics that are seen as Aniel just put it,

an annoying mechanic

The fact that things like OL/PP/DT and so forth are seen as annoying and useless was supposed to be the focus. There is nothing beyond unlocking a few boxes before it gets boring.

If all you see a rogue as is a chest unlocker, then you're probably going to be unhappy no matter what.

This was not my original intent, and the focus of what I was trying to express is that yes, while there are things like Xerah posted on the forum from the Wiki, there are ways to incorporate it but people do not choose those options. Why?

Because everything can be done faster and easier or is stuck behind a wall that cannot be opened without extreme niche level skill (quarter cracking aside).

What I was trying to bring forward is feedback to say Rogue is a beautiful class that often does go overlooked, and the fact that the mechanics, By a Contributor no less, are seen as an annoying part of the game is baffling. If they are annoying, then what can be done to make them important or make them more useful into the game? What can be done to make those skills more useful in the hands of a player character in game, instead of just relying on a Wizard that Dipped Rogue and has Lockpicking, a Fairy, and Knock spells.

Would the creation of a thieves guild with dedicated writs help? No. Because that would just be a forced mechanic that people would see as a novelty and then move away from.

What would help, is expanding the utility of such skills like i said before. Instead of JUST needing a key, put actual DCs on doors to make them passable with a high skill rogue for faster dungeoning that would be outside the range of a pixie or knock spell. Again, I point to the Iron mines with the false walls, those are well done and a great example or the hallway in Morghun's Dungeon near bendir. Or other places that have locked doors but seem trivial, like Freth's storehouse which the outer door is keyed, but the inner door behind the counter is simply unlocked. Being able to sneak into the storehouses would be fun or the back doors of NPC houses like the slums in cordor.

Allow for more In game uses of the skill, and not relying on people to just... make it up as we go because it's been said several times already, people will take the easy way out and instead of including another person in their party, if they can get a Wizard with a Pixie that serves a dual purpose and the person who took rogue well, your just out of luck. The fact that this is actually a major consideration is quite concerning to be quite honest because it shows an ingrained behaviour on intrinsically utilitarian play with a disdain for a need for teamwork.

In the real world, not everyone can pick a pocket, or smooth talk a peddler for a bargain. We have a community here built on interaction and that cooperation, why should that be limited by the rogue who may not be as optimal for fighting? And conversely, why NOT have an exclusive chest or two that is completely unhashable and pixie-proof that requires the highly tuned skills of an accomplished rogue to get open. Where's the desire to expand each others play styles instead of relying upon the same 'meta' skills over and over to the point where it becomes pointless to argue anything else.

I've never said Rogue was useless, and in fact its honestly my favorite class of all. I've played Rogue/archers for a long time, and maybe that's why I'm so passionate about this.

But we have a community that we can explore stuff like that in, and I'd like to see Rogues get a bit more shine and love where those mechanics take more of a front seat and do allow for something to be useful aside from a High AC/High DEX fighting rogue.

[Preytoria]

I think what people believe is being sacrificed is the classic 'tool man rogue.' The guy who undoes traps and locks and stuff! My first character actually /was/ this sort of character. I never once had someone ICly or OOCly tell me 'Nah man, we got a pixie for that.' I was always 'the guy' for the trap situation. Looking back with the knowledge I have now, I know that pixies or even the lack of lethality of the traps themselves made it pointless. But people leaned into it. If your character exists to mechanically disarm traps without you as a player investing some sort of RP into it -- I think you're destined to be disappointed. But if you as a CHARACTER want to be the 'trap guy,' you can definitely have fun.

I think the game would be immensely worse for requiring certain character archetypes. I love the pick-up and go mentality of current grouping. I've had groups stuck in the mud because no one could guard. The game would be worse off if you added /another/ hurdle to the mix.

[AstralUniverse]

Rogue can break in to quarters. (33 + 10 esf + 12 tools + 5 cunning + 14 dex + 25 gear + prayer/whatever = 100+).
Rogue can also get special doors with DC far higher than pixies, therefore, access more loot usually, or shortcuts. Or enter dungeons you'd otherwise need a key from elsewhere.

Pixie is just a tool to keep the economical balance so everyone can get runic stuff and explore.

[CorsicanDoge]

You can use tools? I thought quarters was done through dialogue.

[Nitro]

You can't use tools. Rogue needs to be specifically built for it with trickster cleric and a bard buddy to get enough quarter locks.

[Ork]

Suffice to say- rogues are pretty dope. And probably one of the better classes on arelith right now. Feeling like your rogue has underused skills? start exploring. There's a lot of secrets locked behind DC60+ doors on this server, and even more secrets stashed behind a positive search skill.

edit: also- dayum dude. theres already like 3 pixie gripe threads in feedback within the last day or so.

[Vatheril]

There's a lot of secrets locked behind DC60+ doors on this server

^ This... so much. There are a few 'shortcuts' and interesting places I've found that require breaking a DC60+ lock. A lot of these shortcuts have been good timesavers or avoid certain risks all together. All it takes is a bored rogue and praying no one spots you fiddling with a lock.

[AstralUniverse]

You can't use tools. Rogue needs to be specifically built for it with trickster cleric and a bard buddy to get enough quarter locks.

I didnt know you cant use tools on quarters! :O

I guess there's really no way around it without trickery domain or bard song. Consider me educated. Thanks.

[Might-N-Magic]

You can invest in things like:

Search - more things
appraise - you like money?
bluff - get your disguise
listen/spot - detect things
pick pocket - steal from NPCs or PCs
persuade - extra gold for a few things

I just kinda giggled at this...
Search - more things (Things which frankly suck. Let's face it, the loot on Arelith isn't what someone might call... "good." The loot matrix is 99% things no one in their right mind would ever use or want so bad it's not seen as a waste to simply bash the chest by most. Even then wizards are the best looters, having INT as a class skill and skill-dumping it. The rogue is better off not even touching chests or corpses.)
Appraise - you like money? (Money cap is pretty low and once you hit level 30 and a certain degree you no longer need money at all making it a waste of 33 skill points. Plus, selling necklaces you pull off goblins isn't really how you get real money on Arelith and we all know that.)
Bluff - get your disguise (With it being a Cha skill and everybody and their dog having Spot and being able to buff Spot to ludicrous levels with TS+clairvoy, pointless. Not to mention even these days fighters skill dump for bluff too. Only works on the lazy or newbies.)
Listen/spot - detect things (Fairly unnecessary with hamstringing PVP rules and full Bioware TS. No one cares about detecting a guy who has to jump out of the shadows and spout one-liners before trying to kill you.)
Pick pocket - steal from NPCs or PCs (NPCs have pretty much nothing and you can get it by killing them anyways. PC pp is hamstrung. All you need is a point to get something anyways)
Persuade - extra gold for a few things (Even more worthless than Appraise. Almost laughable)

Open lock - (I have to admit, the stuff posted here made me laugh. There's nothing meaningful or even worthwhile hidden behind high DC doors. Most of what you find is just shortcuts or pointless (empty) areas. Nothing worth wasting 32 skill points and an epic feat. It's a trap.)

Also, why take Stealth at all? Stealth means slowly crawling everywhere you go... Why bother? A 2nd level wizard spell makes you more ninja than a ninja here, lasts long enough for you to run to the end of an epic dungeon past all the mobs to kill the boss and if you can't cast it, well just go buy the armor that let's you use it infinitely. The amount of times I've been sneaking along some place to briefly see some dumb wizard or guy in heavy armor zoom past me invisible would easily be in the hundreds by now. To be honest, this is more of a problem than even the pixie familiar imo. In PNP, an invisible doddering old mage or man in heavy armor trying to run through everything would instantly fail their move silent check from 50 yards off and every monster in earshot would converge upon them but in NWN, 2nd level invisibility makes you more of a ninja than 66 skill points and two epic focus feats ever will.

If wizards need 66 free skill points dumped into open locks and traps then by definition weaponmasters and clerics also need and deserve pixie familiars too. Otherwise let them all scuff.

ATM, there's really little reason to bother with most of the ways rogues do things. Stealth is slow and outdone by invisibility entirely. There's no need for high open lock, disable trap with pixies and other workarounds, and wizards outsearch everybody. The rest is just wasted skillpoints or "toys" with no real worth in the hands of a guy who's Dex-based. I mean, if you're in the party with a wizard, the wizard is better at finding loot than you are and can open everything you come across, so why bother doing more than sitting there holding your duck and looking pretty?

[Ork]

I didn't know someone could be so wrong, might, but you are. Skillwise? sure. Some of those skills aren't amazing, but you're going to honestly tell me that wizards are better than rogues? Wizards are glorified haste bots & rogues are executors. Hide/ms worthless? get out.

[Cuchilla]

The following build is ~2 charisma ahead of what can be done on current drow, since this character is grandfathered, but that doesn't actually matter. 11 cha mod was a choice from when rogue did not add dodge AC in light armor. Now cha mod above 10 or so is kinda wasted.



It's missing 6 AC in the above screenshot:
1 from +4 barkskin (I used a +3 pot)
1 from mage armor
1 from shield
2 from magic vestment (available from the pit fight buff NPC in andunor) on the shield.
1 from magic vestment (available from the pit fight buff NPC in andunor) on the armor.

It's shown above with no weapon equipped in improved expertise. Equipping a deadman's cross brings it up 9 AB (4 from base weapon, 2 from rogue bonus, 3 from feats).

Final numbers pre-IE: 69 AC, 44 AB

Will hit peak AC in 6 sec without breaking IE if it needs to be done.

Has edodge/blinding speed/rogue grenades/acid and firebombs for 100 damage each/hide in plain sight/taunt to bring effective AB up to 50 when needed. Damage is good whenever divine might is running, damage is excellent whenever sneak attacks are proccing (which is often with hips and rogue grenades).

Hope this answers your question.

Pictures like this makes me feel, that I probably should join a build elementary school sometime. When I compare to my own builds, rogues, there are huge differences: Abilities? Mine seldom gets above 100 in total , with +2 abilities on most equipment. But this one - it got 133. Even with barkskin, shield, bard song etc. etc. it is still far from +34. AC: Mine, even bards will full bard song, buffs and whatnot, if lucky reaches mid 60s. This one got 73. And saves: In total, mine get around 60. This one got 102. Kudos for reaching such numbers! I just wonder how you do it.

[Queen Titania]

The most I would recommend is just increasing some lock DCs to be above the pixie's capability, to reward rogue investment in the same, or as Aniel suggested, removing its trap-disarming. But rogues can do so many other things, especially if that rogue is a PC pixie, far more than a familiar can. Just don't make the pixie rogue mad.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

If the pixie's trap dismantling is removed, I hope there'll be some sort of thing added to disable traps. A consumable or something. Traps are worse than locks. Or if traps on chests are changed so when they go off, they're consumed. That way you're exchanging HP for the loot inside.

I think it would be good if more classes had options to deal with these things, and if people have to use a consumable for it, there's a cost to it then. I'm always really disappointed when I go into a dungeon and find all of the containers bashed.

[AstralUniverse]

Looking at a 24 rogue 6 bg build I made some time ago for Yuan-ti

Uses sword and board, not enough feats for KD, epic feats are: epic weapon focus, armor skin, blinding speed, epic dodge, great dex, epic discipline. (Can push 16th rogue feat to epics by taking 5th bg pre-epic and thus get another epic skill focus)

I'm looking at 76 ac max. (10 + 19 (armor of the wilds and dex (or paladin vestment)) +6 shield +4 deflection + 4 natural + 1 dodge + 1 mage armor + 6 tumble + 4 BS/haste +2 armor skin = 57. IE and 9 cha mod = 76). Just sitting on 57 ac before divine shield and expertise is damn good baseline ac to play around if the fight goes long and you use a lot of items.

Ab is average, and thank god for that.
21 bab +5 feats/class +3 rapier + 14 dex = 43. Out of stealth - 45.

Lots of skills. 16 int. Can be quarter breaker with a bard buddy, or trapper if its viable, can get 40~ umd before umd gear. Gets +12 bluff from race and minor gift and in sync with good charisma.

This build is far from minmaxed but the emphasis here is on the ac and the skills and to me it looks like a lot of fun (can share the full build gladly) but this is a good example for ways to make skills like bluff and open lock actually very relevant against quarter locks and dedicated detectors (remove 6 bluff and 33 skill points if human. you still swim in skills with 14 int). Classes bonuses to detection also make up for the lack of wisdom and puts you closer, if not to wisdom based detectors then at least to monks, which is more than enough, before gear.

The comparison to pixies is really just... like comparing cars to trees really. If you think the secret content behind 60 dc locks is dull and not worth the investment, that's really a different story and not related to rogues directly. If you dont want to find a bard buddy and break into quarters (which can be very profitable a lot of fun for everyone if the breaker's player isnt a jerk) that's also your choice. if 54 bluff before any feats or gear isnt enough for you... etc. But you CAN do those things, while still having a relevant build for pvp/pve as illustrated above... twice. So rogues are really fine balance wise and super awesome right now in general.

[Drogo Gyslain]

The most I would recommend is just increasing some lock DCs to be above the pixie's capability, to reward rogue investment in the same, or as Aniel suggested, removing its trap-disarming. But rogues can do so many other things, especially if that rogue is a PC pixie, far more than a familiar can. Just don't make the pixie rogue mad.

That was the point of me starting this thread.

Not to pixie bash, but to promote Roleplay opportunity and PC involvement over the use of magical tools and summons. Pixies are great for soloing, never going to lie, but there should be things that are gate-locked so that it DOES require player involvement, planning, investment and execution.

It doesn't have to be on the same level as Quarter cracking, but certainly doesn't have to be so easy that it feels trivial.

Rogue is and always has been combat viable, AstralUniverse but...

As anyone who knows me, or anything I have ever said, I am for Roleplay before PVP. I see your stat build and sure, its nice, but its leaving out the fundamentals of Roleplay.

Arelith is supposed to be a roleplay server focused on development and good experience, not cheap wins. Mitigating an entire class to Niche opportunities or as has been stated several times "useless investments" of skill points is not effective in doing that.

We have an entire class that is supposed to be filled with sneaks and thieves, robbers, bandits and those of a seedy description, but the #1 Reason I see people taking rogue is to min/max a pvp build, or #2 to use it as a dip to grab some foregone skill that your main class doesn't have, kinda like Monk dips.

If the pixie's trap dismantling is removed, I hope there'll be some sort of thing added to disable traps.

I still disagree with removing it, but maybe lowering it to where they can't win against stronger traps like Deadly or Epic traps. Things that should require trained professionals with experience, not a pixie. Its great to have something at the lower levels and it does give that versatility of build, but when were talking end game content, pixies should pale in comparison to a trained rogue with invested skill points.

My whole point, is to push for more ways that we can see more Roleplay out of the mechanics we have available. If people have focused so hard on getting too much onto a single character, it does invalidate other roleplays.

Rogues as a class have always been great, but they could be given a bigger role for their actual lore based background and focus toward the game. Does that mean some things may be roadblocked without a great rogue on your team? Unfortunately yea. But think for a minute... Can anyone tell me right now that they are the best at everything without needing any help?

If we keep treating the game like you have to be able to do everything with 2 or 3 people, it will continue to be watered down further and further to the point where some things are just completely invalid. Niche builds and Min/maxed pvp builds are not something that should be a norm, but they are and have been for some time it appears. There is a whole LOT of stuff that is FOIG that is reserved for lots of different character types, lots of things that are exclusive and not anyone can just walk in and do. Rogues could help with some of that, or help open the world up to other things.

Cordor alone has multiple locked doors that require Keys. Whats to keep from instead of just opening with a key, then there are DCs set for them to be unlocked? I know pickpocketing has been mentioned but keys can't be pickpocketed. Traps that do require skilled hands.

Nothing worth wasting 32 skill points and an epic feat. It's a trap.

We should never get to the point where people say this. If Skillpoints and Epic Feats are seen as a trap, what can we do to make it more appealing so that those skillpoints are not just wasted away?

[Ork]

Some doors that require keys have nothing behind them.

[NauVaseline]

There are already locations/runic chests/traps that the pixie alone cannot get you past or access to.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

So umm

I feel the main point that should have veen made to OP near the beginning is that through equipment, any class just puts 1 point into lockpick.

[Drowboy]

So umm

I feel the main point that should have veen made to OP near the beginning is that through equipment, any class just puts 1 point into lockpick.

Multiple people have said that in this and every other months rogue vs pixie thread. It gets ignored.

[Ork]

Lock calculations are challenging. One of the best things we can do to equalize locks would to be removing open lock & disable trap from the enchantment basin. This would normalize lock equations to skillpoints+dex+20. If you want to allow a L7 to get into a lock, you would set the DC to 30. A level 5 could also get into the lock if they have high dex or a lockpick.

[Azensor]

Here's a idea.

Rogues can already make lockpicking tools via smithing.. why not give rogues more tools that they can make, for themselves or others, open door/disable trap/place trap.

[Chosen Son]

I dont see a problem with pixies as they stand. Ideally i'd see more ways for more classes to open chests. Imagine if the only healing in game was from clerics, bards, and druids and how pigeonholed that would leave those classes. Sure it would would encourage certain kinds of rp, possibly lead to conflict, and in general encourage "inclusion" of clerics, but I dont for a moment think it would be fun. Gating things like loot or areas behind certain classes, skills, or abilities is not good design in my mind and I am glad to see there is less of it.

[strong yeet]

I dont see a problem with pixies as they stand. Ideally i'd see more ways for more classes to open chests. Imagine if the only healing in game was from clerics, bards, and druids and how pigeonholed that would leave those classes. Sure it would would encourage certain kinds of rp, possibly lead to conflict, and in general encourage "inclusion" of clerics, but I dont for a moment think it would be fun. Gating things like loot or areas behind certain classes, skills, or abilities is not good design in my mind and I am glad to see there is less of it.

I agree a lot with this post.

Sorry, I like the idea of rogues being a class relevant for more than skill-monkeying, and I dislike the idea of "mandatory" components to a group for the purpose of finding loot (ie: making content actually worth doing for more than the fun of it)