Rogues v. Pixies and why Rogues need some love

[Drogo Gyslain]

I see the threads about Pixies and it gives me a bit an irk when it comes to when I see people say they 'can't find good rogues' or anything.

With this being an RP server, that brings to bear a bit of a question as to the prevalence of such thoughts being, Why are we allowing for the use of Pixies for 'pocket rogues' and enabling solo-adventuring instead of advocating for actual rogue utilization and giving more shine to roleplay able characters that have the rogue skills?

Rogues have alot of talents but are often seen as a gimmick , a dip people take at late levels to get certain talents and then forgotten beyond that. I've been told numerous times that I'd 'have a bad time' playing a pure or high level rogue.

Why is that? Is it because they are unviable in combat? Is it because there are too many other classes with combinations of similar abilites?

Or is it because as a rogue, there is so little to do that actually utilizes your abilities to their fullest and challenges you.

Sure there are the meme heavy 'quarter cracker' builds, and the rogue dips for things like Thieves Can't, tumble, UMD and discipline, but what of what you can use your rogue build for?

There are doors in dungeons sure, but what about sneaking around town? There are numerous locked doors that are not player owned that are keyed access. Why can't we see some areas where it gives rogues a bit of a challenge to flex those skills?

Why not remove the viability of a pixie as a pocket rogue, to push for more inclusion on balanced team adventuring when going dungeon diving? Instead of relying on soloing create the opportunity to work together and get more diverse parties going.

Rogues have alot of talent but where they get to use them is limited to dungeons and their stealth ability, and who gets to use them is limited by the availability of things like pixies that simply make them a foregone conclusion.

What if Pixies were dropped in their Open Lock ability to make them still viable for low level dungeons but not so for later dungeons? What if Rogues were given more opportunities to shine inside the cities or more things to explore/do that would enhance their appeal to play higher level rogues.

What would it take to get some more viability out of a class that is often seen as just a stepping stone to the next set of abilites while at the same time not invalidating another solution, but make them work in different capabilites.

[Scurvy Cur]

Rogue is not unviable in combat. It's very strong right now.

Why is that? Is it because they are unviable in combat? Is it because there are too many other classes with combinations of similar abilites?

Or is it because as a rogue, there is so little to do that actually utilizes your abilities to their fullest and challenges you.

Sure there are the meme heavy 'quarter cracker' builds, and the rogue dips for things like Thieves Can't, tumble, UMD and discipline, but what of what you can use your rogue build for?

The following build is ~2 charisma ahead of what can be done on current drow, since this character is grandfathered, but that doesn't actually matter. 11 cha mod was a choice from when rogue did not add dodge AC in light armor. Now cha mod above 10 or so is kinda wasted.



It's missing 6 AC in the above screenshot:
1 from +4 barkskin (I used a +3 pot)
1 from mage armor
1 from shield
2 from magic vestment (available from the pit fight buff NPC in andunor) on the shield.
1 from magic vestment (available from the pit fight buff NPC in andunor) on the armor.

It's shown above with no weapon equipped in improved expertise. Equipping a deadman's cross brings it up 9 AB (4 from base weapon, 2 from rogue bonus, 3 from feats).

Final numbers pre-IE: 69 AC, 44 AB

Will hit peak AC in 6 sec without breaking IE if it needs to be done.

Has edodge/blinding speed/rogue grenades/acid and firebombs for 100 damage each/hide in plain sight/taunt to bring effective AB up to 50 when needed. Damage is good whenever divine might is running, damage is excellent whenever sneak attacks are proccing (which is often with hips and rogue grenades).

Hope this answers your question.

[Drowboy]

I was going to post here saying "even the standard 24/6 rogues are fine" but I think scurvy sort of annihilated the argument here

[Drogo Gyslain]

Rogue is not unviable in combat. It's very strong right now.

Why is that? Is it because they are unviable in combat? Is it because there are too many other classes with combinations of similar abilites?

Or is it because as a rogue, there is so little to do that actually utilizes your abilities to their fullest and challenges you.

Sure there are the meme heavy 'quarter cracker' builds, and the rogue dips for things like Thieves Can't, tumble, UMD and discipline, but what of what you can use your rogue build for?

The following build is ~2 charisma ahead of what can be done on current drow, since this character is grandfathered, but that doesn't actually matter. 11 cha mod was a choice from when rogue did not add dodge AC in light armor. Now cha mod above 10 or so is kinda wasted.



It's missing 6 AC in the above screenshot:
1 from +4 barkskin (I used a +3 pot)
1 from mage armor
1 from shield
2 from magic vestment (available from the pit fight buff NPC in andunor) on the shield.
1 from magic vestment (available from the pit fight buff NPC in andunor) on the armor.

It's shown above with no weapon equipped in improved expertise. Equipping a deadman's cross brings it up 9 AB (4 from base weapon, 2 from rogue bonus, 3 from feats).

Final numbers pre-IE: 69 AC, 44 AB

Will hit peak AC in 6 sec without breaking IE if it needs to be done.

Has edodge/blinding speed/rogue grenades/acid and firebombs for 100 damage each/hide in plain sight/taunt to bring effective AB up to 50 when needed. Damage is good whenever divine might is running, damage is excellent whenever sneak attacks are proccing (which is often with hips and rogue grenades).

Hope this answers your question.

Actually it doesn't and You've missed most of what I was trying to get across.

Rogues in combat were not the issue I was trying to say at all, but their all around RP value and priority when it comes to expanded utility beyond just being another fighter class That is niche or a dip class. Focusing on JUST the combat has ignored the fact that outside of their combat prowess (which yes, is good), they have abilities that go underutilized or can be placed at the forefront.

I would like to see Rogues have more use outside of just this. Locked doors that rogues can get in and explore, chests aside from just end game dungeons with exceptional lockpick. Quests that allow for, or accentuate pickpocket ING and use the skills we have available and make more opportunities for roleplay all around.

I have been, and always will be a proponent of RP first, PVP second. And there are opportunities yes, but there are many more that could be there that have not been utilized.

[Itikar]

I played for the last few months a rogue with shadowdancer dip, and made a spellsword a little later with the customary pixie familiar.

Whoever thinks that pixies make rogues outdated or unnecessary is missing the point. The pixie, especially on builds that do not go for wizard 27 or 30 is not even close to a rogue, and even a level 30 pixie is not comparable to an averagely built rogue.

The pixie can take care of many things but it is nowhere close to having a rogue in the party, as I verified personally.

The matter is not so much that the pixie takes away stuff to do from rogues (it does, mind you, just in my experience this was not the key part), the point is that the community does not really -feel- the need of rogues.

I found myself often in parties, without any pixies, where the members simply bashed doors and containers or walked through traps, even if my rogue was there rubbing her thumbs. I have even seen people using wands of Knock in my face.

Now, one would assume I was pissed, or at least that my character was, after seeing such stuff. In truth neither I nor her were that bothered, we simply shrugged and let it slide.

From the point of view of the rogue in fact, it is often more rewarding to sneak into dungeons solo and steal the loot without being noticed and without having to split. As for the companions, it is -their- benefit to peruse the rogue, especially since even the crappiest rogue tends to be more resilient than any pixie, more than the benefit of the rogue.

I blame the rarity of rogues also on the fact that leveling them in solo, especially after the change to hide in plain sight cooldown, is more problematic. Personally I only gained xp from expeditions with a party, I think some rogues can also solo, but as of right now it is not easy to use the main feature of the class, sneak attack, in such a setting.

Regardless rogue remains a great class and one that has been greatly improved on this server, with many juicy things such as the grenades, the increased speed while sneaking, extra attack bonus, reduction to blinding speed cooldown, free weapon finesse and some other things. The matter in my opinion is that not many people are so keen on playing a rogue, and the community has found ways to survive without them. One can educate them, but in general, this is the feeling I got from my experience.

The said I encourage everybody to give a shot to the rogue class, as it can be really fun and rewarding, if approached with the right mentality.

[Xerah]

I would like to see Rogues have more use outside of just this. Locked doors that rogues can get in and explore, chests aside from just end game dungeons with exceptional lockpick. Quests that allow for, or accentuate pickpocket ING and use the skills we have available and make more opportunities for roleplay all around.

You can make the same point about almost all classes. Rogue's outside of combat stuff is the huge number of skills they have (in addition to open lock/disable traps)

[Party in the forest at midnight]

The pixie familiar is extremely frustrating to use. It absolutely LOVES rushing into combat and dying in 1 hit, even if I repeatedly tell it to follow me. Knock also removes invisibility, whereas open lock doesn't remove you from stealth. I wouldn't say mage obsoletes rogues at all. However rogue has a lot of shortcomings mage doesn't have that I'm still trying to figure my way out around. On a mage if something detects me, I have a summon I can fall back on. I have no idea how high your hide/ms has to be to be useful, but I find myself being detected so frequently I'm wary to rely on it for anything. And for whatever reason, if you die and get a godsave to raise, whatever killed you will home in on you and chase you as soon as the sanctuary effect wears off. Doesn't matter if you invis, doesn't matter if you stealth. I was wandering the Shadow Plane just now and am sad at how stealther unfriendly it is, considering you get in through having stealth skills.

And also seconding what was said about people just rushing through dungeons and chest bashing. I'm playing a rogue now. This happened to me the last time I was in a group. I could pick locks and disable traps, but, too late. Dungeon-wise, I don't think people want rogues. They don't care about loot if it's not an epic dungeon.

I don't think the pixie matters at all, and it doesn't make wizards obsolete rogues. All it matters for is dungeons, and even then, the pixie loves to suicide.

[Itikar]

I was wandering the Shadow Plane just now and am sad at how stealther unfriendly it is, considering you get in through having stealth skills.

I think that there is a number of npcs, especially on the Shadowplane and some epic dungeons, that have permanent true seeing. Slimes and stingers also have an equivalent of true seeing, so there is no sneaking around them.

I am not necessarily criticizing this, rogues can go in many places already, but it is something that I do not think is truly related to the level of hide and move silently, not in all cases at least.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I'd rather have a rogue than a pixie-wizard in the party any day of the week.

Do you know how much fun adventuring is in Arelith when you manage to score something resembling the classic 4-adventurer party?

A lot of Arelith's dungeons are really a blast. Fighters get chances to smash, wizards get chances to nuke, clerics get chances to save from some nasty spell, rogues get to be trap/lock experts+good flankers+good scouts.

Hating on a pixie is age-old and tired. A good rogue is better. I love rogues in parties. Way more fun.

(and arguably, Elder Elementals undermine the role of a good frontline tank way more than pixies erode rogue builds, imho)

[Drogo Gyslain]

I would like to see Rogues have more use outside of just this. Locked doors that rogues can get in and explore, chests aside from just end game dungeons with exceptional lockpick. Quests that allow for, or accentuate pickpocket ING and use the skills we have available and make more opportunities for roleplay all around.

You can make the same point about almost all classes. Rogue's outside of combat stuff is the huge number of skills they have (in addition to open lock/disable traps)

You're right. Rogues have an immense amount of skills, but Where can they be applied.

As far as I am aware, there are no large quests that allow for Rogues to exploit pickpocketing to steal unique items off of an NPC. Why do so many of the doors in dungeons rely exclusively on levers and keys, and not have a high lockpick DC that can enable skilled employment of the lockpicking ability.

Where is the interaction for Rogues when you can disable traps and open treasure chests with a pixie on your own, so a team of wizards can do the same thing that a rogue can with less hassle.

The fact they have an immense amount of skills, but have a very narrow application to use them is my point. Being the "chest unlocker" is not that fun after a while. Why not allow for rogues that invest into their skills to be able to bypass door checks and locks to enable faster progression through a dungeon or level some chests to the point where Pixies and the Knock spell can't unlock them to encourage team cooperation. (And for that matter, make certain chests unbashable).

Rogues have lots of potential and the skills to use it, but are not as apt to be called upon because of the abundance of things that mitigate their importance or skill.

Especially with Irongron saying he is investing time and effort into renovating several skills (to this point that have still been unspoken as to what 3 skills these are) it would be something of a blessing to look onto what we already have and find new ways to improve on our existing things.

We have plenty of DPS able characters and fighter analogies that can fight a PVP battle. What we lack is the finesse needed to skillfully employ the other skills in life to find new roads through the game.

[Xerah]

You can invest in things like:

Search - more things
appraise - you like money?
bluff - get your disguise
listen/spot - detect things
pick pocket - steal from NPCs or PCs
persuade - extra gold for a few things

Which a lot of classes can't do. If all you see a rogue as is a chest unlocker, then you're probably going to be unhappy no matter what. Even on the wiki, there are suggestions about what a rogue can do:

So here are some flavours of rogue... a 'good' rogue build will combine several of these.

Sneak. High hide/ms (and often high dex) mean that a rogue can go to places that, say, a mage of their level wouldn't dare to. A good sneak keeps some items around to let them get away if they're spotted - on Arelith, guaji root, potions of invisibility and potions of haste are all useful things to keep around.

Dex warrior. High dexterity, high tumble, weapon finesse and weapon focus in, say, rapier give a rogue a decent AC and AB. While they're unlikely to win a stand-up fight with a warrior of similar level, by the time they enter combat a rogue should have many fewer opponents to deal with...

Archer. High dex, point black shot, rapid shot and weapon focus in a bow can be powerful in a rogue. Complements sneaking very well - sneak up to within sneak attack range of a spawn and fire off several shots in a round. An epic rogue with a bow can take down most of a spawn in a single round, because they don't have to move.

Pickpocket. On Arelith, you get XP for pickpocketing monsters (though not for pickpocketing PCs; if you take high PP then you should be sparing in its use on other players). Again, you'll want to take good sneaking skills to make best use of pickpocket... but you can make decent gold and XP by pickpocketing creatures much higher level than you are. The risk, of course is if you're spotted... that comment from earlier about potions holds doubly true here.

Engineer. Search, Disable Device and Open Lock are very useful skills for a rogue, allowing them to turn a tidy profit by opening the various chests around the place. Skilled engineers can also break into players' quarters, which asides from burglary also opens up options like breaking friends out of jail.

Trapper. Craft and Set Trap give rogues a chance to even the odds a bit against tough opponents. Just as a wizard usually saves their most powerful spells for blasting bosses, so a rogue can save their traps until they're facing a boss, weakening them with deadly devices before closing in for the kill.

Diplomat. More an RP aspect than anything (at present), a rogue gets all the social skills. High Bluff can also be used to disguise yourself, an aspect that's going to grow increasingly important as more and more systems key off it. If you're planning to play a criminal, high bluff skill will be invaluable.

Tinkerer. Rogues get Use Magic Device as a class skill, allowing them to use equipment designed for other classes - most notably wands. Tinkering is expensive - most items are one-shots - but can be invaluable in sticky situations and, like trapping, especially when dealing with bosses and other players.

[Baron Saturday]

Seems to me like what is actually being requested here is an NPC thieves guild with rogue-specific writs. Which, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more support for shady underworld RP, but it's a big ask involving a ton of work, and implementation would be tricky. I could maybe see it being offered on Sencliff as a piracy alternative?

[Drogo Gyslain]

Seems to me like what is actually being requested here is an NPC thieves guild with rogue-specific writs. Which, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more support for shady underworld RP, but it's a big ask involving a ton of work, and implementation would be tricky.

I wouldn't even say going that far, but expanding on the use of the mechanics that we have available and making more use of them.

Like why do so many doors have locks that are unpickable?

OK if they are unpickable, why can't we steal a key off an NPC that holds it, orat least have a low chance to steal it. Or have it hidden in a chest or container because we have lots of places I'm sure Noone goes in because there's no access other than quartercracking levels of lockpicking.

So many doors in dungeons that are locked via mechanical means that can be picked but alot of them are secret loot rooms or locked off areas, why not make the main doors pickable too so that you could potentially progress instead of relying on finding keys (Goblinoid dungeons is a good example. 1 Key spawns per reset and it's almost always gone in the first 20 minutes never to be seen and thrown in a trashbin. An entire 2nd dungeon that's blocked off because the key is so often unobtainable.)

Xerah, you make mention of the wiki with suggestions on how to play a rogue, and that's what I'm pulling for here. With such an immense amount of skills and talents that can be utilized in RP, could we see a larger reliance on them from other players by making rogues more attractive, wether that be my making chests harder to unlock so pixies aren't so omni-tool usable, or lowering the effectiveness of pixies and the knock spell. Adding a failure % to spells cast from scrolls and wands or pixies having their OL/DT skills reduced to make them less of an omni-tool, even if it only shifts it for later game content.

Search, Appraise, bluff, Spot/listen are all universal skills that while are great to have, are not unique to rogues or at least are rogue heavy. If anything, Listen is more a Monk thing. Listen also doesn't (and I didn't know this at first) do anything other than combat MS. What if Listen extended your rogues listen distance to hear conversations from further away?

When we consider Pickpocketing, it's limited to gold and a very limited selection of 1 or 2 square items (explicitly discluding keys) and many items you can get aside from gold from enemies are replaced with "stolen item" and you just get something that evaporates. What if Pickpocketing actually gained you an item or two, or like I mentioned earlier, NPCs that have keys for places that don't have lockpickable doors.

It doesn't have to be about making a Theives guild, but things interspersed that take advantage of those skills and massive skill points that could make playing as a rogue that much more of a benefit for RP, or included as part of a team out of a need for balanced teamwork born from true need and not a forced necessity.

[CorsicanDoge]

The fact that the pixie is everyone's familiar speaks for itself and yes, it's everyone familiar in the UD as well. Out of selfish interest as a bard player I don't want to rely on finding a rogue when I already have wizard/sorc buddies out of the wazoo but I digress.

It replaces the rogue in open lock and disable device in every way and the only way they can outshine it is if the rogue takes high appraise/search/etc to justify his share. Rogues are good mechanically in terms of combat but some people make rogues under the erroneous assumption that they're useful primarily for their skills and major investment in OL/DD.

[Drogo Gyslain]

The fact that the pixie is everyone's familiar speaks for itself and yes, it's everyone familiar in the UD as well.

Rogues are good mechanically in terms of combat but some people make rogues under the erroneous assumption that they're useful primarily for their skills and major investment in OL/DD.

The Point of this feedback is to shine the light on the fact that Rogues are second class to pixies, and in terms of what you can do with rogues, it should not be a competition (except a PC pixie rogue).

PC Rogues should be more capable than Pixies and provide the ability to interact with teams outside of the precept of being the finder or the searcher of the team. To be able to take that 'erroneous assumption' and change that to the reality where OL/DD/PP are more viable as a player than using a pixie or a spell. There is no application that this should be the case and a PC with proper training and time spent invested in the skills should be able to outperform a pixie-summon.

[Eira]

The amount of times I've played a mage character and gotten "why the hell didn't you pick a pixie familiar" from party members who assumed I'd be their magical lockpicker supports that people just want an easy method.

It's been an aggravating argument to have. Apparently "for the roleplay" isn't a good enough answer

There needs to be some reason people don't just default to pixie.

Or at the very least, players should stop being pissy at those who don't go along with the "obvious" meta

[Drogo Gyslain]

The amount of times I've played a mage character and gotten "why the hell didn't you pick a pixie familiar" from party members who assumed I'd be their magical lockpicker supports that people just want an easy method.

Or at the very least, players should stop being pissy at those who don't go along with the "obvious" meta

This should never have been allowed to become the case. Players should never have to be told "You're going to have a bad time" or told what you've been because of a 'obvious meta' choice. The very fact that it's become such a meta choice is a problem and it mitigates out so much capability for interaction.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Dude, have you read the thread? I've played both a wizard and am leveling a rogue now. People do not care if you can pick locks. If they can bash, they will bash.

I personally wish there were more ways to do open lock/disable trap for dungeons. My cleric alt has zero options for getting loot, and it's pretty disappointing leaving chests behind all the time.

The purpose of a rogue is more than just being a chest opener. If that's all you want out of the class, if that's the only thing you're going to obsess over as being the #1 reason for rogue to exist, I don't know what to tell you.

[Nitro]

Since you mentioned the Cordor locked doors. There are actually NPC's that can be pickpocketed for keys to some of them

The Point of this feedback is to shine the light on the fact that Rogues are second class to pixies, and in terms of what you can do with rogues, it should not be a competition (except a PC pixie rogue).

PC Rogues should be more capable than Pixies and provide the ability to interact with teams outside of the precept of being the finder or the searcher of the team. To be able to take that 'erroneous assumption' and change that to the reality where OL/DD/PP are more viable as a player than using a pixie or a spell. There is no application that this should be the case and a PC with proper training and time spent invested in the skills should be able to outperform a pixie-summon.

PC Rogues ARE more capable than pixies. There's 60+ DC doors in some dungeons that require a dedicated lockpicker in the party. These areas are usually avoided because trying to find someone with investment required to beat it is more of a hassle than just going somewhere else.

Arelith is not a zero sum game, other classes having features that allow them to open doors and unlock chests doesn't take anything away from rogues. Rogues can still do all those things, and a bunch of other things that a pixie familiar can't.

Edited addendum: We have extremely little content in Arelith gated behind needing any one single class to progress past it, wanting to add more seems incredibly backwards.

[Drogo Gyslain]

People do not care if you can pick locks. If they can bash, they will bash.

I personally wish there were more ways to do open lock/disable trap for dungeons.

Expanding Roleplay ability and enhancing player experience is the point. The fact that "people don't care" is the utter low point for an RP situation.

The fact that everyone will seek the 'easy way out' instead of the proper roleplay way should not be rewarded. You should not be able to use a pixie to get intact theureauglass or jars of Djinn Uther from runic chests willy nilly.

Bringing a highlight to other skills is what they are there for. If the skills exist and they don't get used except as a cheap hat trick or a niche build ability, what good are the skills in the longrun?

Building on that leads to server culture that invests in good roleplay, not cheap get-through that give you all the rewards with the least amount of effort.

Personally, that's what I feel things like the Omni-tool "pocket-rogue" pixie has become. The Cheap way to get everything and there are better, more roleplay inclusive ways to do the same thing that would involve more characters without turning into what Eira said.

"Why the hell did you not pick the meta-pixie?"

[Gouge Away]

In my experience people don't give a damn what class you are unless it's seen as something that their class needs to ostracize.

Hardly anyone ever says "we need xx for this group" at least in PVE. Yeah a healer or mass haste machine is nice as is a rogue to deal with traps but not having those classes around never stops anyone. Most players are so familiar with this game and server they know how to get around a skillset that's missing or don't care if they lack it.

If your rogue is good company you'll find a place in groups and if you assert that you'll handle the traps and locks nobody's going to pull out the pixie. Thinking you're ever going to be in demand for what your class can do though isn't really how Arelith operates. Parties are almost always a random grab bag of whoever is available or interested, not carefully screened and recruited to fill the standard MMO roles.

Frankly that's fine with me as the process of finding a group itself can be a struggle a lot of the time, if you have to hunt down a rogue or you couldn't go that could mean you just couldn't go some times of day.

[Nitro]

"Hey guys, I heard you're going to RDD, can I tag along? I'm great at killing dragons"
"Nah sorry, we're waiting for a rogue and don't want to bloat the party too much"

snip

Honestly this post just seems very elitist. Is it bad roleplay because people don't want to have to micromanage their dungeon delving groups? Because people want to be able to have fun without having to wait around for hours at the whim of whatever rogues may or may not be around at their timezone to be able to actually experience server areas and get loot?

How is it more roleplay inclusive to ask a rogue to tag along into a dungeon than a wizard or sorcerer?

Why does rogues deserve to be the only ones who can collect loot? Is there some inherent part of the class that makes them more suited than any other to get djinn uther or theurglass? Rogues can do all that right now, a wizard being able to do the same doesn't take that away from you, just lets more people enjoy that aspect of the server.

[Drogo Gyslain]

Honestly this post just seems very elitist.

I'm actually glad you said this.

How is wanting for skill diversity and an enhanced focus on Roleplay over Simplicity and Mechanics abuse to the point where it is meta, elitist?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

[Nitro]

I'm actually glad you said this.

How is wanting for skill diversity and an enhanced focus on Roleplay over Simplicity and Mechanics abuse to the point where it is meta, elitist?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

Thank you for ignoring the entirety of my post to focus on a single sentence.

I'm going to respond in good faith, and probably in a great deal more depth than such a bait-y response deserves.

So let's start with the "meta-pixie" It's the best option for opening chests, doors and undoing traps. Pseudodragon is also a very strong option for its permanent truesight. You can pick another familiar for "RP purposes" if you want, sure. Just as you can choose to fill your 6th level spell slots with chain lightning instead of mass haste because you want to RP some sort of lightning mage, or use a small shield instead of a tower shield on a weapon master because you want to RP as a fencer with a targe.

All of these are suboptimal choices, the game is full of opportunities to make subuptimal choices. You may do them any time you wish at your own prerogative and if someone tells you "You should have done X instead" you can tell them to shove it and ignore them. Does that mean that we should nerf every optimal choice, or make more choices optimal? I'll leave that for you to decide but I know I prefer the latter.

As for skill diversity, there's a lot of valuable skills right now. Rogues certainly get to pick a lot of them with their high base skill points. Does your options get less diverse because someone else can do the same thing you can do? Certainly not. A pixie being able to pick locks doesn't invalidate your ability to pick locks. A bards ability to use high level scrolls with Lore doesn't invalidate your ability to do so.

And there certainly isn't any more inherent roleplay inclusivity to go looking for a rogue for a dungeoneering party instead of inviting a wizard or sorcerer. There's a player behind each of those characters after all.

What you are arguing for seems to be more along the lines of skill exclusivity, where one class is required to perform certain skill related tasks. This certainly isn't diversity for most people, it doesn't even give rogues more diversity, it just takes away diversity from other classes.

And finally

an enhanced focus on Roleplay over Simplicity and Mechanics abuse to the point where it is meta, elitist?

I touched on this briefly in the familiar point, but there's nothing that makes a less optimal choice any more valuable in a roleplay sense. We have two weaponmasters, one is optimal and uses a scimitar, the other wants an RP build and uses a mace. The ones choice to pick a worse weapon doesn't make him a better roleplayer, what mechanics you decide to use or not use has nothing to do with how good of a roleplayer you are or how much focus you put on roleplay. The ability to build well and roleplay well are not mutually exclusive.

Does pixie need to have something done about its prevalence? Absolutely, for instance making other familiars actually have valuable abilities and powers of their own, so that by choosing a pixie you are forced to give up something else. Do they need to be nerfed for being one of two viable options? No, they already can't reach the same amount of open lock/disable trap that a rogue can and it'd just make the choice of familiar pointless because now none of them are worthwhile outside of extremely specific situations.

[wulfburk]

"Hey guys, I heard you're going to RDD, can I tag along? I'm great at killing dragons"
"Nah sorry, we're waiting for a rogue and don't want to bloat the party too much"

snip

Honestly this post just seems very elitist. Is it bad roleplay because people don't want to have to micromanage their dungeon delving groups? Because people want to be able to have fun without having to wait around for hours at the whim of whatever rogues may or may not be around at their timezone to be able to actually experience server areas and get loot?

How is it more roleplay inclusive to ask a rogue to tag along into a dungeon than a wizard or sorcerer?

Why does rogues deserve to be the only ones who can collect loot? Is there some inherent part of the class that makes them more suited than any other to get djinn uther or theurglass? Rogues can do all that right now, a wizard being able to do the same doesn't take that away from you, just lets more people enjoy that aspect of the server.

So lets allow fighters, and all classes, enjoy that aspect of the server? Unless i am missing something, this must naturally be your conclusion. If not, then why wizards and sorcerers deserve it more than these other classes? They already have knock spell, for starters. Speaking as someone currently with a wizard alt, dungeoning is a joke. Not only i can get in lvl 26 a summon with 57 AC (with minimum buffs) + epic dodge, i can also get all runic chests (so far).

There are many ways to have fighters make sense ICly to be able to open runic chests.