Unarmed Monk Love

[Archnon]

So, I think monk is almost at a really good place. Monk dips are perhaps a bit too powerful, but monk heavy is pretty good. These builds are usually 20 monk 10 something else, with fighter, rogue and COT being prominent. However, the recent change regarding monk unarmed, while extremely well intentioned, has made it really hard to go that route.

Basically, to be an effective unarmed monk, you really need to go pure. That +5AB/+6 damage does a nice job of countering fighter. Granted you are still losing 1 attack per round to get there. However, the problem is that the new system for ki strike 5 makes a really have feat tax. Epic monk's get 6 feats. What you want to take includes.

Required
Ki 4
Ki 5
Epic Dodge
EWF Unarmed

Near Required
Armor skin
ESF Discipline (your dex after all)
Blinding speed (gotta get another APR)

That makes 7 epic feats. That does not include ESF Lore, ESF hide, Spot, or a million other useful feats at the level. The result is, you need to dip fighter, and rather heavily too. This means, you lose all that bonus AB and damage and have little reason to go unarmed. So for the suggestions. I think some combination of these could make the feat tax less:

1.) Let monk's take ki strike 4 pre-epic. You'd have to take it at level 18. Most level 18 characters can run with a +4 weapon so not overpowered. Frees up an epic feat. This is the real low hanging fruit balance wise. It really adds nothing to the class but makes those 7 feats more viable.

2.) Grant monks a bonus feat at level 28. The most obvious would be EWF Unarmed or ESF Discipline. Both of these would be thematic and free up a feat. Also, another cookie for full monks.

3.) Fix circle kick (please do this). It is supposed to grant +1 APR to unarmed monks, reducing the need to dual wield weapons. However, it redirects you to a new target, making it hard to take out casters early. I get the idea. You kick someone behind you and it shifts your focus. Replace this with a different feat. You can either just grant +1 APR still. Or if you wanted to stay thematic, make it more like Rogue's opportunist feat, where you get a +4 AB bonus on attacks of opportunity. That is the basic idea right, you are reacting to those around you more efficiently.

4.) If you go the opportunist route for circle kick, grant monks +1 APR at level 30 when unarmed. Offset those 4 pre-epic feats.

5.) Reenable Monk armor bonus but only for epic monks. So +1 AC at 20, +1 at 25 and another +1 at 30. So +3 if you go full epic. This might offset so you don;t need armor skin.

6.) Please, please, please match small and large race damage die. Monks don't get their abilities from being big and thuggish. They get their fighting abilities from constant training. This would be huge for those of us who want to play unarmed halflings and gnomes.

Any combination of these would make unarmed monk more viable. I was really excited to see the wrestling arena on the tiwtter feed. Let's give it some unarmed players to fight in it.

[Jack Oat]

Hi Archnon,

I'll be replying to a few points on here given my unhealthy obsession with the East-Meets-West class that is Monk, and my participation in several of the changes (see: buffs) that led to its current iteration.

So, I think monk is almost at a really good place. Monk dips are perhaps a bit too powerful, but monk heavy is pretty good. These builds are usually 20 monk 10 something else, with fighter, rogue and COT being prominent. However, the recent change regarding monk unarmed, while extremely well intentioned, has made it really hard to go that route.

Basically, to be an effective unarmed monk, you really need to go pure. That +5AB/+6 damage does a nice job of countering fighter. Granted you are still losing 1 attack per round to get there. However, the problem is that the new system for ki strike 5 makes a really have feat tax. Epic monk's get 6 feats. What you want to take includes.

I'm not going to comment on this section yet, as I have a few questions I want to shoot you on Discord to get a better idea of what you mean.

Required
Ki 4
Ki 5
Epic Dodge
EWF Unarmed

Near Required
Armor skin
ESF Discipline (your dex after all)
Blinding speed (gotta get another APR)

That makes 7 epic feats. That does not include ESF Lore, ESF hide, Spot, or a million other useful feats at the level. The result is, you need to dip fighter, and rather heavily too. This means, you lose all that bonus AB and damage and have little reason to go unarmed. So for the suggestions. I think some combination of these could make the feat tax less:

You're right in that dipping Fighter is a near-requirement for getting all of those feats. Usually the number is somewhere between 4 and 10 depending on what a build is after. This nets -1 AB and -2 SR while giving +3 damage and +1 AC from Fighter 5 bonus AC to Armor. It's definitely a cost vs. reward choice a player has to make.

1.) Let monk's take ki strike 4 pre-epic. You'd have to take it at level 18. Most level 18 characters can run with a +4 weapon so not overpowered. Frees up an epic feat. This is the real low hanging fruit balance wise. It really adds nothing to the class but makes those 7 feats more viable.

While there are 2-3 outliers, most of the +4 weapons all have a level 21 requirement. All of the spells that give +4 to your weapon while stacking with your weapon's base properties (Bless Weapon, Blade Thirst) for any real duration also require 21 for +4.

2.) Grant monks a bonus feat at level 28. The most obvious would be EWF Unarmed or ESF Discipline. Both of these would be thematic and free up a feat. Also, another cookie for full monks.

This is a good suggestion to consider in order to balance out the feat split between Monk and Fighter.

3.) Fix circle kick (please do this). It is supposed to grant +1 APR to unarmed monks, reducing the need to dual wield weapons. However, it redirects you to a new target, making it hard to take out casters early. I get the idea. You kick someone behind you and it shifts your focus. Replace this with a different feat. You can either just grant +1 APR still. Or if you wanted to stay thematic, make it more like Rogue's opportunist feat, where you get a +4 AB bonus on attacks of opportunity. That is the basic idea right, you are reacting to those around you more efficiently.

4.) If you go the opportunist route for circle kick, grant monks +1 APR at level 30 when unarmed. Offset those 4 pre-epic feats.

I agree that Circle Kick is trash and should be fixed. This may be discussed in the future.

5.) Reenable Monk armor bonus but only for epic monks. So +1 AC at 20, +1 at 25 and another +1 at 30. So +3 if you go full epic. This might offset so you don;t need armor skin.

This would only serve as more incentive to take Armor Skin as well, effectively increasing Monk AC by 3. I don't think that's necessary or a good idea. The numbers were reviewed and decided upon at removing it altogether in order to balance high-level Monk out some with other contemporary builds.

6.) Please, please, please match small and large race damage die. Monks don't get their abilities from being big and thuggish. They get their fighting abilities from constant training. This would be huge for those of us who want to play unarmed halflings and gnomes.

Small-sized races get +1 AC, +1 AB, +4 Hide and Move Silent, and then their racial stuff (+1 Uni and +2 DEX for Halfling, +30 HP for Gnome) at the cost of essentially -4.5 damage (2d6 = 7 avg. vs. 1d20 = 10.5 avg., -1 from -2 STR). Those are enough buffs to a predominately DEX based class.


Hopefully these answers provide some better feedback/understanding to your suggestion. One of the people with the ability to make a decision about this being approved/denied will likely come through later.

[garrbear758]

I'm going to move this to feedback to allow for discussion, as there is a little too much involved here to flat out approve or deny it.

[Nevrus]

My old suggestion for small monks was 2d8 unarmed max. Which lines up with pnp. Every other melee playstyle from weapon masters to rogues to paladins only loses d2 damage from the size change, but monks lose d8. Getting that to d4 still adds a cost without it being so massive.

[Tarkus the dog]

I confess that it would be nice if monk + cross class was more viable, however pure 30 monks are undeniably one of the strongest builds on the server at the moment ( especially after the ranger nerfs ).

You do not need Blinding Speed that badly. It's a really powerful feat, but a monk doesn't really need it as much. You're already at full speed at all times, the extra 1 ARP and 4 AC is obviously good but, unlike other classes, constantly being at max speed you get to choose when to drink the haste potion. Every other mundane has to drink it no matter what.

In regards to "why not free skill focus or something?", I can ask the same question for almost any other build. Barely anyone gets these luxuries, and some classes ( fighters ) can't even dip into spot nor listen.

In general, apart from the fact that it would be great if they could cross class some more ( seriously, 30 monk is king, dipping just makes it weaker ), they are in such a great position right now. Some QoL changes would be nice ( like making circle kick work ), as for the small races, Jack explained it well, but other than that, I seriously don't think they need anything else on top.

Oh, and could we have a toggle for the eye glow? Or add some more color variety, like yellow, green and white?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I have a really good unarmed dex monk build that gets all the things the OP wants and more.

20 monk/6 fighter/4 rogue.

STR: 8
CON: 14
DEX: 17 (+2 with Gift)
INT: 14
WIS: 14 (+2 with Gift)
CHA: 8

1. Rogue (1) Luck of Heroes
2. Rogue (2)
3. Rogue (3) Expertise
4. Monk (1) +1 Dex
5. Monk (2)
6. Monk (3) Improved Expertise
7. Monk (4)
8. Monk (5) +1 Dex
9. Monk (6) Dodge
10. Monk (7)
11. Monk (8)
12. Monk (9) Blind Fight, +1 Dex
13. Monk (10)
14. Monk (11)
15. Monk (12) Improved Critical: Unarmed
16. Monk (13) +1 Dex
17. Monk (14)
18. Monk (15) Great Fortitude
19. Monk (16)
20. Monk (17) +1 Dex
21. Fighter (1) Improved Ki Strike +4, Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed
22. Fighter (2) Armor Skin
23. Fighter (3)
24. Fighter (4) Improved Ki Strike +5, Weapon Specialization: Unarmed
25. Fighter (5)
26. Fighter (6) Epic Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
27. Rogue (4) FREE FEAT, CHOOSE ONE OF THE FOLLOWING: Blinding Speed, Epic Prowess, Epic Skill Focus, or Epic Fortitude
28. Monk (18) +1 Dex
29. Monk (19)
30. Monk (20) Epic Dodge


You only need 20 levels of monk to get the most out of it, so might as well take some fighter levels for feats. Rogue levels give you extra sneak attack damage, UMD, open lock and disarm trap. I went with wild elf for race but since that's been nerfed you can go human for a free feat or any other race really. With the right gear and a few potions/wands this build is absurdly tanky with decent damage and +5 DR penetration and all the utility you need to solo dungeons.

[Archnon]

I confess that it would be nice if monk + cross class was more viable, however pure 30 monks are undeniably one of the strongest builds on the server at the moment ( especially after the ranger nerfs ).

You do not need Blinding Speed that badly. It's a really powerful feat, but a monk doesn't really need it as much. You're already at full speed at all times, the extra 1 ARP and 4 AC is obviously good but, unlike other classes, constantly being at max speed you get to choose when to drink the haste potion. Every other mundane has to drink it no matter what.

In regards to "why not free skill focus or something?", I can ask the same question for almost any other build. Barely anyone gets these luxuries, and some classes ( fighters ) can't even dip into spot nor listen.

In general, apart from the fact that it would be great if they could cross class some more ( seriously, 30 monk is king, dipping just makes it weaker ), they are in such a great position right now. Some QoL changes would be nice ( like making circle kick work ), as for the small races, Jack explained it well, but other than that, I seriously don't think they need anything else on top.

Oh, and could we have a toggle for the eye glow? Or add some more color variety, like yellow, green and white?

I mostly agree here. Monk right now is either 3, 20 or 30 level commitments. I disagree that 4 AC is nothing. Having played extensively with monk/ranger combos, a Ranger with a monk dip, even post nerf, hits 60 AC easily with basic buffs and haste. That includes getting blinding speed in your feat list quite easily. A monk without it caps at 56 AC and loses out on action economy. It is frankly, crazy not to take it. Better off not taking Amror skin.

As far as strongest builds on the server, I think they are in the pack. However, right now, i think we are actually reaching a close to parity point with divine builds, wizards, rogues, barbarians, and ranger/monks. I think they sort of fall right in this pack. But my point was to enhance not monk builds broadly, but unarmed monk. I think for any given monk build, it is better to go weapons. To go unarmed, you are losing 1 APR and 1-2 equipment slots for rune work. The damage you gain is on par with Ranger or divine builds. It only becomes more if you go pure monk and gain that little bit extra AB.

I have a really good unarmed dex monk build that gets all the things the OP wants and more.

20 monk/6 fighter/4 rogue.
[[[....a pretty good build....]]]]

This was a fine build but it still falls trap to my complaint. You don't take ESF discipline which should be needed on this build. You will not be able to successfully rune it on all the gear you need to get discipline high enough. Further, you are missing out on 2 AB relative to the pure monk, though you gain damage. Finally, you are still better off playing this build with a weapon, probably a quarterstaff or even a single kama. You are losing out on an item to rune for extra stats. You are also losing 5dc on stunning fist and quivering palm. Clever use of rogue though to offset skill points lost to fighter!


The heart of the problem is the 2 extra feats it takes to get the +5 weapon and get your AB and damage up to par. This loses out to just taking a weapon. Frankly, i'm so sick of seeing quarterstaffs and dual kamas running around. It would be nice to see some unarmed monks again. I think offering monks EWF Unarmed at level 28 would essentially solve this problem. It would not boost non-pure monks or monks with weapons at all. You still lose out on 1 apr but you actually get to play a monk that can use the DC's on his fist attacks. Heck, you could even replace improved whirlwind with EWF unarmed to add a little bit more parity. Slight nerf for a significant bonus to unarmed pure monks.

[Drowboy]

27. Rogue (4) FREE FEAT, CHOOSE ONE OF THE FOLLOWING: Blinding Speed, Epic Prowess, Epic Skill Focus, or Epic Fortitude

[Ork]

That build hurts me so much. Monk needs ab, and that build means you're losing at least 2 bab unnecessarily.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

That build hurts me so much. Monk needs ab, and that build means you're losing at least 2 bab unnecessarily.

If you're that worried about AB you can always swap the rogue levels for fighter but you lose out on a lot of utility and skills that way. Being able to use both arcane and divine wands and open chests probably beats 2 AB in terms of usefulness. Taking the rogue levels in epics instead could be done but then you lose out on the multiple epic feats which the OP really wants to squeeze in.

[AstralUniverse]

-Everybody (in all of nwn community) knows circle kick is bad. I'm assuming after all these years, if it could be fixed it would have been. Not much to say there.

-Pure monks should get epic discipline focus at lvl 28. The reason for that is that the trade offs between pure monk and 20/10 fighter or fighter/cot is quite drastically in favor of the multiclass option because the bonus feats offset the pure monk bonuses and more. This also fits the fact monks did not really need a nerf when all dexers just got hammered so they need discipline even more now. I'm very much in agreement with this suggestion.

-Monks being able to pick Ki +4 in pre-epics basically, in the grand picture, saves an epic feat and that's a big deal because multi-classed monks who will have only 20 monk lvls benefit from that AND all the bonus feats they will get from fighter/cot. So I'm against this suggestion. It is just better to give pure monks discipline at 28 and free up a feat slot that way.

-Monks dont need their AC buffed. As said above. They will still prioritize armor skin (and for a good reason) and this does nothing other than an unnecessary buff. The order of feats priority doesnt change because you buff something. Armor skin is still better than epic prowess for example. I'm against this suggestion.

-I've never played a small race in my life. Hinarefoodnotfriends. but yeah.. this is both thematic and balanced. smaller hits weaker, is harder to hit and detect. That's all good.

-The build above is a disaster. For a decent monk build, please see Arelith discord build guide. There's a pure monk and there's a ftr/cot variation.

[Ork]

That build hurts me so much. Monk needs ab, and that build means you're losing at least 2 bab unnecessarily.

Taking the rogue levels in epics instead could be done but then you lose out on the multiple epic feats which the OP really wants to squeeze in.

How would that change the feat load. 4 rogue epic, 6 fighter epic. +2 bab. loss of 16 skill points. better saves.

[strong yeet]

Monks definitely do not need their 1AC/5levels back. The way they are now is probably the best they've ever been.

I still believe pure monk is the way to go simply for the AB bonuses from Combat Mastery, they are more than you'll get from dipping, unless maybe you're running a 20 monk 10 cot. All the same I definitely don't think pure monk needs buffs, or nerfs -- it really is, honestly, the most effective and most balanced it's ever been. It's definitely a weird thought.

As for monk dips I'm more ambivalent. It was always easy, and always strong to dip monk on a variety of things (remember kama rogues?). I don't really believe that their enhanced gearing options are a huge benefit, unless maybe in tandem with the rune system, because of how Owl's Insight used to work, allowing a 0 wis-gear invested monk to easily cap his +12 with a scroll and a wand. All that's been done is move that auto +7 from a scroll to a series of high-end craftables and loot matrix items, that don't actually even add up to the +7 from the scroll (gloves, shirt, and belt are only +6, unless I'm forgetting an item -- not counting runic bonuses, or runic bonus + another rune stacked, which I think is fixed now).

Like I sort of mentioned earlier, the only real quibble I have is the rune system, which is really quite minor. Monks are good if you ask me, aside maybe from what Tarkus mentioned where it simply feels more rewarding to go pure 30 rather than multiclass. I like pure 30 being an option, but it feels lame when that's the ONLY way to really build your character; thinking here of druids, warlocks, wild mage... not very exciting, not only because it rarely allows for much wiggle room in feat/flavour choice either.

tl;dr i like monks, pls don't fondle them too much

[Archnon]

What if we did:

-ESF Discipline at level 28
-Change Imrpoved Whirlwind for EWF Unarmed at level 25

Then a small boost for pure monks, with a slight nerf by taking away the whirlwind range, and a small boost to unarmed monks over weapon monks instead.

Too much still?

[AstralUniverse]

Too much still?

Yes. Epic weapon focus almost for free (which is what it is really if the trade is ww range) is too much. Just epic discipline at 28 imo. This is just meant to narrow the gap between pure monks and 20 monks. Pure monks still come out with higher ab and now epic discipline for free, which means they have 6 feats for ewf, armor skin, ki +4, ki +5, bspeed, edodge. OR alternatively, something like ewf, edodge and 4 improved SR, putting them at 40 SR.

In comparison between the monk builds the differences are
3 damage in favor of the multiclassed monk (-3 monk bonus, +6 weapon epic weapon spec)
1 ac in favor of the multiclassed from figher bonus, or no ac difference if there's divine wrath. but then there's divine wrath...
2 ab in favor of the pure monk. But in most cases just 1 because the multiclassed version has more feats to afford epic prowess.
2 sr in favor of the pure monk.
1 apr in favor of the multiclassed (this is a really big deal, speaking from experience with and without that 1 apr on a -releveled build)
big, BIG, saves difference in favor of the multiclassed version*

*Monks dont need will save, monk's reflex does not need any gear anyway. Fortitude is the weakness.
Fighter dip pre-epic 16/4 gives 2 fortitude compared to pure monk. fighter/cot dips 16/3/1 result is even a bigger fortitude and reflex difference. then there's another +2 or +3 unisave from cot. This puts fort at 30~ and reflex at 35~ before any saves gear or saves feats.

giving pure monk discipline solves this gap. monk do not need any more love than this. Multiclassed monks are really beast right now. I played one that critted 100+ quite often against normal targets with no immunities/vulnerabilities (and hilarious 160-180 against hardened frost trolls). That's my two cents.

[Archnon]

Too much still?

Yes. Epic weapon focus almost for free (which is what it is really if the trade is ww range) is too much. Just epic discipline at 28 imo. This is just meant to narrow the gap between pure monks and 20 monks. Pure monks still come out with higher ab and now epic discipline for free, which means they have 6 feats for ewf, armor skin, ki +4, ki +5, bspeed, edodge. OR alternatively, something like ewf, edodge and 4 improved SR, putting them at 40 SR.

In comparison between the monk builds the differences are
3 damage in favor of the multiclassed monk (-3 monk bonus, +6 weapon epic weapon spec)
1 ac in favor of the multiclassed from figher bonus, or no ac difference if there's divine wrath. but then there's divine wrath...
2 ab in favor of the pure monk. But in most cases just 1 because the multiclassed version has more feats to afford epic prowess.
2 sr in favor of the pure monk.
1 apr in favor of the multiclassed (this is a really big deal, speaking from experience with and without that 1 apr on a -releveled build)
big, BIG, saves difference in favor of the multiclassed version*

*Monks dont need will save, monk's reflex does not need any gear anyway. Fortitude is the weakness.
Fighter dip pre-epic 16/4 gives 2 fortitude compared to pure monk. fighter/cot dips 16/3/1 result is even a bigger fortitude and reflex difference. then there's another +2 or +3 unisave from cot. This puts fort at 30~ and reflex at 35~ before any saves gear or saves feats.

giving pure monk discipline solves this gap. monk do not need any more love than this. Multiclassed monks are really beast right now. I played one that critted 100+ quite often against normal targets with no immunities/vulnerabilities (and hilarious 160-180 against hardened frost trolls). That's my two cents.

Pretty dead on your comparison here. But i think it is important to throw in a comparison with armed monks. I think in most respects:

armed multi-monks > armed pure monks > unarmed multi monks > unarmed pure monks

my point was that going unarmed costs 2 extra epic feats, costs up to 2 attacks per round (3 if you go pure monk) and does not give a comparative AB or serious damage advantage. It would be nice to see some incentives to lower the gap between unarmed and armed, as well as multi and pure.

[AstralUniverse]

Pretty dead on your comparison here.

Sorry, I'm not sure what it means.

comparison with armed monks.

Armed monks are done with monk dips and not heavy monk builds. The reason is that other classes can give you much better combat prowess than the petty armed monk bonuses. There's no reason to play a monk with a weapon and not pick a class with full bab progression like ranger or hexbalde as the core class of the build. Also worth noting they are not supposed to get any bonuses with UBAB weapons and I cant see why anyone would go for a none ubab weapon with monk as one of their classes except for RP flavors. Which leads me to believe this is all it ever meant to be - RP flavored cookies to make monks who wield a normal weapon for RP reasons without being entirely screwed up. There's no point to even bring those up in balance discussion about monks. Armed monks are either 3ish monk lvls and need a whole thread for those... or entirely RP focused and dont belong here. Worth noting that buffing armed monks to a point where they match unarmed monks in ab and damage is a really bad idea.

[Archnon]

Pretty dead on your comparison here.

Sorry, I'm not sure what it means.

I was saying your comparison was dead on. As in, you nailed it...you were right

And yes you are right, lurking behind this is a critique of armed monk dips and the fact that it is extremely hard to justify a pure unarmed monk in the face of an quarterstaff or kama pure bab class with a weapon. But that is a different thread all together...

All told, i think granting just a single feat at 28 so that a monk could hit those core feats and pick up. Though I think the loss of 1 apr is frankly pretty huge in the grand scheme of things and this doesn't really offset for that. Fixing circle kick would solve that problem, but alas.

[jomonog]

Theres no difference in effective number of epic feats between monk 30 and monk 20 fighter 10. You use 4 fighter pre-epic for the extra APR and so 6 fighter epic gives you 3 bonus feats, one of which you have to use on EWS, and so the two extra are just offset by missing the monk bonus feats at 25 and 30.

Same with the better multiclass monk 20 fighter 4(or 6) COT 6 (or 4). You end up with the same amount of epic feats available because you take COT 4 pre-epic, and then even though you get an extra epic bonus feat from taking your first fighter level epic you have to use that to pick up weapon specialisation, so end up feat neutral with the monk 30 and the monk 20 fighter 10.

All three versions basically end up with the same choice when it comes to the last epic feat, being a choice between blinding speed and epic prowess (all having picked up EWF, Armor skin, E-dodge, Ki strike 4 and 5). its not an easy choice because AB is at a premium but blinding speed is such a great feat and QOL on a monk that i personally think right choice is to go with blinding speed and accept 1 less AB.

Pure monk ends up with the best AB, a little less damage, slightly worse AC and misses out an APR. Its the weakest of the three variants mainly because of APR.

I like the idea of replacing improved whirlwind attack at 25 with EWF for free, that might actually make pure the best because the difference is quite marginal and then pure would also be able to take epic prowess making the AB gap even more in favour of it.

If you gave pure/deep monks some of their AC back (for example, 1 ac at 20, 1 at 25 and 1 extra at 30) then that would probably put unarmed monk back on par with ranger/monk with staff (post nerf). thats assuming you want to, monk being just off top tier is not such a bad thing i reckon as I like keeping pure monk fairly rare for those who really want to monk.

[Wethrinea]

From what I read here, am I right to assume that a str unarmed (or armed) monk is simply not feasible?

[jomonog]

No majority monk strength build I know of is much good unfortunately. Strength monk unarmed is pretty substandard. With monk level based AC being removed, no e-dodge, and having to wear robes your AC is terrible and your damage is not high enough to warrant going all out attack. No synergy with WM because fists can't be weapon of focus.

If youre not going unarmed then you probably dont want majority monk builds anyway. Look more at things like monk/SD/WM strength based using naginata (although thats been nerfed from what it was anyway).

[Wethrinea]

So to me its seems one of the issues with the monk class is that it currently pigeonholes monks into dex based e-dodgers, with or without a quarterstaff.

Is it at all possible to make the unarmed str brawler viable without the dex variant becoming too powerful?