RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

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RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Arcbled » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:51 pm

It's something I've spoken of in the Discord a few times, and something I've had a few talks about elsewhere, so I might as well try and formalise it into something (hopefully) more useful.

Casters get access to spell-foci. Spell-foci improve their spells as a start, which is enough incentive to go for them alone, but they also unlock abilities with incredible RP utility. Being able to send illusionary messengers from anywhere on the isle is extremely handy for organising/spreading information. Summoning people to your location can change the entire dynamic of a scene and shift the scales in battles. Scrying? Scrying. Scrying is crazy-good for spies, busybodies and overly curious sorts.

While casters becoming naturally stronger also unlocks these powerful RP bonuses, mundane non-casters are pretty lacking out of combat. Now, given the fact that they aren't hijacking reality with arcane might it makes sense that they aren't on-par with casters. But I there's a few things that could be done to slap some flavour on these filthy non-magic goons.

Monk: I'm biased, as I play a monk, so take this with a grain of salt. Tongue of the Sun and Moon isn't necessarily bad but it boils down to 'you have a chance at having a chance to understand a line spoken in a language you don't speak'. It's pretty minor, even as a 30 pure monk.

I'd suggest making it a flat 'level 15/20 monks understand, but do not necessarily speak, every language'.

Another suggestion that I think would be really cool but is arguably too much, adding -scry to epic level monks as 'astral projection'. Now, while I have your attention, please remove Quivering Pa-

Ranger: This one was Glowing Mushroom's idea, and it's pretty genius. Rangers having access to 'messenger birds' would allow a similar mechanic to illusion's send-image. It could require a piece of paper to be taken from your inventory. Arguably this could also be an RP Cookie for other mundanes as well, but the animal aspect of it leans it towards ranger.

Again, I'd suggest making this a level 15 or so ability.

Fighter: Fighter, as a class, is comically vague. A fighter's everyone from a knight-in-training to an arena brawler to a mercenary to gosh-darned damn-near anything you can picture holding a club. Thinking of RP Cookies for a Fighter is a troublesome prospect, as many ideas that come to mind inherently pigeonhole the character into being 'that kind of Fighter'.

In talking about it with people in the Grove discord, ideas include 'ability to send an escort to -yoink a target' (which isn't so bad, but feels a little bit forced to me), 'take less of a minus every tick to sleep to signify their devotion/training' (which is fine, but doesn't really add any RP flavour), 'using binoculars/a portable spyglass to look at areas after adjacent transitions' (which is a neat idea, but I don't know how much work it would take and anyone could conceivably buy a spyglass).

My suggestion, which I'm not even too sure of, is that Fighters get access to fixtures that could be used for tactical purposes, such as barricades. Might need some more thought.

Barbarian: -barbar makes them speak every language simultaneously in all-caps.

Rogue: Rogues suffer from the Fighter problem in that potential RP cookies unfortunately pigeonhole them. However, unlike Fighter they're kind of fine as-is, given their skill potential.

///

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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:51 pm

As with another thread, this isn't really one or two suggestions, but rather five or six. We want to keep the suggestion thread really simple.

So I'm moving this thread to Feedback, partly because of the above - and partly because I genuionly quite like the concept of it personally (I do agree the Ranger idea is an interesting one, for example) but I think it really needs a lot more honing, a lot more defintive ideas, which can then be broken down and suggested one by one.
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Nevrus » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:12 am

Monk: I'm biased, as I play a monk, so take this with a grain of salt. Tongue of the Sun and Moon isn't necessarily bad but it boils down to 'you have a chance at having a chance to understand a line spoken in a language you don't speak'. It's pretty minor, even as a 30 pure monk.

I'd suggest making it a flat 'level 15/20 monks understand, but do not necessarily speak, every language'.

Another suggestion that I think would be really cool but is arguably too much, adding -scry to epic level monks as 'astral projection'. Now, while I have your attention, please remove Quivering Pa-
I think monks have enough language power. They learn more languages and they learn them fast because of their comprehension. Turning off the entire system for a base class seems a bit unbalancing.

As far as Astral Projection is concerned, I like the idea of Astral Projection but I don't like the idea of scrying. If I were to implement it as a flavor cookie, it would be a once/day teleport to the plane of your alignment available at 28- Celestia for LG, Mechanus of LN, and Baator (Wherever the FOIG transport system takes them) for LE. This gives them access to said transport system and enables planeswalking without burning through attunement potions. This is flavorful as 'ascending your consciousness.' Make it have a long (1 minute) windup too, so it can't be used as a free escape.
Ranger: This one was Glowing Mushroom's idea, and it's pretty genius. Rangers having access to 'messenger birds' would allow a similar mechanic to illusion's send-image. It could require a piece of paper to be taken from your inventory. Arguably this could also be an RP Cookie for other mundanes as well, but the animal aspect of it leans it towards ranger.

Again, I'd suggest making this a level 15 or so ability.
Yes.
Fighter: Fighter, as a class, is comically vague. A fighter's everyone from a knight-in-training to an arena brawler to a mercenary to gosh-darned damn-near anything you can picture holding a club. Thinking of RP Cookies for a Fighter is a troublesome prospect, as many ideas that come to mind inherently pigeonhole the character into being 'that kind of Fighter'.

In talking about it with people in the Grove discord, ideas include 'ability to send an escort to -yoink a target' (which isn't so bad, but feels a little bit forced to me), 'take less of a minus every tick to sleep to signify their devotion/training' (which is fine, but doesn't really add any RP flavour), 'using binoculars/a portable spyglass to look at areas after adjacent transitions' (which is a neat idea, but I don't know how much work it would take and anyone could conceivably buy a spyglass).

My suggestion, which I'm not even too sure of, is that Fighters get access to fixtures that could be used for tactical purposes, such as barricades. Might need some more thought.
A team of level 25 fighters establishing a defensive perimeter would actually be pretty interesting. Could be like shady deals, but it gets them a cheval-de-frise variant that's designed to degrade and disappear much more quickly. Unfortunately that's not very useful outside of combat.

Perhaps making their repair splash to a nearby party member when they rest at high enough levels?
Barbarian: -barbar makes them speak every language simultaneously in all-caps.
I believe they already speak the words they care to speak in every language, in all caps, by swinging a big weapon around while raging. It's rather effective communication.

If I were to give them a cookie, I'd add double a barbarian's level to the animal empathy script that's run to determine if animals go hostile. As savage warriors of the wild, otherwise passive creatures would not want to mess with them.
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Arcbled » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:19 am

I think monks have enough language power. They learn more languages and they learn them fast because of their comprehension. Turning off the entire system for a base class seems a bit unbalancing.
Counterpoint: My level 30 monk is incapable of learning new languages without zoo INT buffs in play.
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by OleBlighty » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:20 am

Arcbled wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:51 pm

Fighter: Fighter, as a class, is comically vague. A fighter's everyone from a knight-in-training to an arena brawler to a mercenary to gosh-darned damn-near anything you can picture holding a club. Thinking of RP Cookies for a Fighter is a troublesome prospect, as many ideas that come to mind inherently pigeonhole the character into being 'that kind of Fighter'.

In talking about it with people in the Grove discord, ideas include 'ability to send an escort to -yoink a target' (which isn't so bad, but feels a little bit forced to me), 'take less of a minus every tick to sleep to signify their devotion/training' (which is fine, but doesn't really add any RP flavour), 'using binoculars/a portable spyglass to look at areas after adjacent transitions' (which is a neat idea, but I don't know how much work it would take and anyone could conceivably buy a spyglass).

My suggestion, which I'm not even too sure of, is that Fighters get access to fixtures that could be used for tactical purposes, such as barricades. Might need some more thought.


///

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As someone who mostly plays Fighters or Clerics (so melee builds, basically) I think something that would focus on a FTR's attributes would make sense. These could even be choices that were level-dependent and attribute dependent:

For instance, a FTR with base INT above 12 could have an option to "prepare a battlefield" as in gaining a tactical advantage by noting terrain features, etc (mechanically recognized as providing greater AB/AC).

STR base 16 and above could double carrying capacity and get 1 extra point of damage every other level after ___.

DEX 16 and above could auto-climb most areas.

CON 16 and above could get a slightly increased run speed/last longer without food and water and sleep. 18 and above get extra HP per level above and beyond their CON bonus.


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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Kuma » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:53 am

Arcbled wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:19 am
I think monks have enough language power. They learn more languages and they learn them fast because of their comprehension. Turning off the entire system for a base class seems a bit unbalancing.
Counterpoint: My level 30 monk is incapable of learning new languages without zoo INT buffs in play.
that's not much of a counterpoint, considering one can just. buy potions

edit: anyway as for fighter bonuses you kinda want to shy away from things that are just raw mechanical bonuses since that's not what makes spell focus cookies fun. on the other hand, you don't want to just ape spell focuses. i am struggling to think of anything myself but then that's sort of what the class is meant to be: versatile, fluffless, not pure-classed

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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:15 am

Kuma wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:53 am
Arcbled wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:19 am
I think monks have enough language power. They learn more languages and they learn them fast because of their comprehension. Turning off the entire system for a base class seems a bit unbalancing.
Counterpoint: My level 30 monk is incapable of learning new languages without zoo INT buffs in play.
that's not much of a counterpoint, considering one can just. buy potions

edit: anyway as for fighter bonuses you kinda want to shy away from things that are just raw mechanical bonuses since that's not what makes spell focus cookies fun. on the other hand, you don't want to just ape spell focuses. i am struggling to think of anything myself but then that's sort of what the class is meant to be: versatile, fluffless, not pure-classed
I'm having exactly the same issue Kuma. And it's really irritating beca,se lets be honest, RP wise fighters are REALLY dull!

All they can manage is hitting things really well, a thing literally every other class can do, and often in a way that is substandared to how other classes can do it at a high level.

But as you say, I just can't think of anything for them. Maybe it's a lost cause?

For rangers - perhaps another neat thing to do would be able to make a shelter? Basicaly to make a 'tent' which they can enter (like a quarter) but with no storage chest or anything. Just a small closed off area. The tent cannot be entered by monsters, or anyone else. But when destroyed it regurgitates the pcs. (they are zooped back, making it highly innefective for sheltering from pvp or anything)
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Kuma » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:40 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:15 am
Kuma wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:53 am
Arcbled wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:19 am


Counterpoint: My level 30 monk is incapable of learning new languages without zoo INT buffs in play.
that's not much of a counterpoint, considering one can just. buy potions

edit: anyway as for fighter bonuses you kinda want to shy away from things that are just raw mechanical bonuses since that's not what makes spell focus cookies fun. on the other hand, you don't want to just ape spell focuses. i am struggling to think of anything myself but then that's sort of what the class is meant to be: versatile, fluffless, not pure-classed
I'm having exactly the same issue Kuma. And it's really irritating beca,se lets be honest, RP wise fighters are REALLY dull!

All they can manage is hitting things really well, a thing literally every other class can do, and often in a way that is substandared to how other classes can do it at a high level.

But as you say, I just can't think of anything for them. Maybe it's a lost cause?

For rangers - perhaps another neat thing to do would be able to make a shelter? Basicaly to make a 'tent' which they can enter (like a quarter) but with no storage chest or anything. Just a small closed off area. The tent cannot be entered by monsters, or anyone else. But when destroyed it regurgitates the pcs. (they are zooped back, making it highly innefective for sheltering from pvp or anything)
I feel like rangers are in an incredibly good place right now and don't need the help, RP-wise or no.

The issue with fighters is that they can be anything and everything.

My mind immediately went to battlefield tactic types: but then what about a no-cha, no-int door guard? That's a fighter. Just like the inspiring tactician is. Just like the scimitar-wielding sailor that maxed climb for his rigging. But they're all so different.

Fighter gains by dipping, or being a dip, and doesn't, in my opinion, need RP buffs or abilities to "make up" for its lack: they are MEANT to multiclass for this instead. Particularly now when we have a lot more classes, too.

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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Arcbled » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:02 pm

As a rule of thumb (for me at least), RP Cookies as a concept shouldn't involve any 'make number go up', unless it's 'make number go up' that improves RP or focuses on non-combat areas.

One idea that Glowing Mushroom suggested was 'monk meditations', which would bestow +1/2/3 to various stats on the monk. I'd like that, but as a buff for another person rather than the monk. Call it 'Ki Activation'. But again, I'd rather it be something that doesn't risk affecting any combat meta.

//

As for monks having access to all languages, besides how it's a thing from DND, I'd point out how it's not exactly astoundingly useful beyond flavour. Being able to know what a gnome is calling you behind your back isn't going to dramatically change anything - especially not if the ability is to be given in epic levels, and that the gnome's aware that monks with glowing eyes will know exactly what you said.

Further, while I agree that it's 'turning off a system for a base class', I'd argue that -teleport and/or -yoink turns off the portal system (and does it better), -project_image turns off the messenger system (and does it better), and -ward quite literally turns off systems in a way that can have a dramatic effect in some scenarios. Further, casters will often take multiple of these feats, which also up spell save DCs in combat on top of the incredible utility/RP applications.

Comparatively, I'd say that monks/bards language buffs are pretty meek.

//

I do like the idea of giving high-level fighters access to insta-cheval-de-frises, but I'd be concerned about how much value that actually adds to RP and also how much effort it would take to make the system work properly. Being able to create fixtures with special properties might be a solution - a water/food/etc keg fixture that ups the percentages of those who rest near it maybe?
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by -XXX- » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:00 pm

I think that the point about fighters being really dull is somewhat backwards.
Allow me to elaborate: "limitations breed creativity":
Mages need to specialize their schools of magic. As such they get to put emphasis in their RP not only on the things they can do well, but also on the aspects that they aren't particularly good at (other than omitted magic schools, we could also list here the ability to hit things for example) - the character gets defined by their character sheet in a very tangible way pretty much throughout their entire level progression.

That being said, i think the reason why melee characters might seem a bit dull is twofold:

1) their level progression is incremental. The bonuses that the character attains during leveling are small and not very exciting (as opposed to learning that flashy cool spell on lvl xyz), but they add up and the final product can be quite powerful.

2) they can be anything. Other than raw stats, alignment, race and sex, the character sheet doesn't really give away much more information about who the character is. Having too many options can represent a much greater challenge for the player when they are trying to invent and define their character.


I mention all this because I don't think that simply adding abilities to melee classes by itself would solve anything (and I am also of the firm belief that it'd be entirely uncalled for from the mechanical point of view).
Allowing them to obtain these abilities in exchange for something and/or as a reward for a character defining choice (choosing a philosophy, following some teaching or personal code, choosing a particular deity, etc.) might be very cool however.

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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Kuma » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:29 pm

Arcbled wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:02 pm
shouldn't involve any 'make number go up', unless it's 'make number go up' that improves RP or focuses on non-combat areas.
Arcbled wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:02 pm
which would bestow +1/2/3 to various stats on the monk. I'd like that, but as a buff for another person rather than the monk.
hm

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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Arcbled » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:35 pm

But again, I'd rather it be something that doesn't risk affecting any combat meta.
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:50 pm

This all part of the reason why 3.5 is what it is - biased against mundanes. A level 20 fighter just swings a sword a lot harder, whereas a wizard can teleport, fly, scry, summon walls of fire, conjure elementals, and so on, and so forth.

It's an uphill battle without rethinking how all classes work.

But, my spark notes:

- Rangers are fine. They have so much. They arguably have THE MOST out of all non-arcane casters (yes, I think they have more breadth than like clerics)

- Monks are fine. I would go after Perfect Self and make that level 20 capstone a -path with different ideas of enlightenment than anything else (you could have physical, spiritual, and mental purity as different avenues that tweak monk mechanics) [to be controversial, I think it should actually be changed to level 28 because what monk DOESN'T go to level 20]

- Fighters are pretty boring. As they should be. I do like the recent additions of auto-repair and resting armour, that seems flavourful!

The two systems I would say fighters should get more interaction with are Monster Heads/bounties, and henchmen. While fighters don't necessarily have to be high in CHA, the idea that fighters have positive relationships with other individuals of mundane martial prowess seems likely.

So,

> Fighters at X level are more aware to the monster bounties of Arelith's settlements than others, and can either spawn Heads off of non-boss creatures, or get more out of Head rewards (maybe they can get temporary essences, instead of gold).
> Fighters at X level can use henchmen.

- About barbarians - I do really wish Arelith drew inspiration from the "Races of the Wild" 3.5 splatbook, and started grouping Barbarians, Rangers, and Druids all together for this "nature-based" roleplay instead of literally dumping everything on Rangers and calling it a day. Barbarians have historically in 3.5-and-before were way more aligned with this sort of "shamanistic/spiritual/tribal" idea - in some regards, way more than both druids and rangers. We do have the Shaman-crossover for Barbarians, but I think they need more stuff with [nature].

> Barbarians can apply their damage reduction to environmental effects. (probably hard to script)

- Rogues are fantastic.

edit: I want to add that I think there was a severe shift in the treatment of mundanes/casters when we added the ability to directly control summons. Overall, from a player-fun standpoint, it scored 10/10s, however - it undermined a principle of 3.5 mechanics, and we are still feeling the effects.

Mundanes work on a linear curve (that is, straight), and casters work on an exponential (big curve upwards past level 9 or so). In PnP, this was well-known and a part of the game. A fighter was super important for all those instances where a caster WASN'T, but on the whole, the party knew the sheer power that casters offered.

And so many DM Quests are about magic, ancient artifacts, etc. - DnD is about magic. So magic-users are just more relevant.

Back in the olden days, mundanes were super important to casters, and casters roleplay, because they couldn't rely on summons to go adventuring. Casters needed to have bruisers and meatshields to carry them through, and simultaneously, meat-shields welcomed casters because they made dungeons a million times easier with their buffs, dispels, and ability to nuke bosses. It was a balance.

Arelith isn't that anymore, and where the traditional role of the fighter would actually be pretty substantial in roleplay, it's been brushed aside for the purposes of "adventuring" because a 9th level elemental can pretty much swap out a 17th level fighter. Sure, you won't go as fast or as efficient through your writ, but you'll live, and not have to share gold, and can do it literally whenever you want.

I think this has eroded the mundane-caster relationship, and I think threads like these are acknowledging this indirectly.

So, unpopular opinion, I think the biggest cookie you could give to mundanes is to nerf Conjuration and Necromancy summons and make casters reliant on having mundane friends.
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by -XXX- » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:24 pm

You have it all backwards - atm the question is what do melee classes need mages for if they can solo endgame PvE content by themselves.

Nerfing necro/conju would only remove the ability of mages to solo PvE content while retaining the soloing potential of melee classes.

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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Arcbled » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:52 pm

You bring up a lot of great points there SSS. I think casters are inherently too strong, but I'd rather see the rest of the classes buffed/given more utility than nerf the casters themselves.

'Fixing' the relationship between mundanes/casters/skillmonkeys (the good ol' holy trinity) would take a whole lot of work and, in the end, probably wouldn't make things more inherently enjoyable on the whole. Again, I don't want to touch the mechanical meta of combat here - that's a different discussion which brings in a lot of disparate threads, and it's one which I personally despise because of how it often obstructs and limits RP (I still remember once being told that building non-optimally was a detriment to RP).

//

Auto-repair and resting in armour are something I doubt I'll ever witness improving a fighter's RP potential. Auto-repair makes an invisible number go up and resting in armour, in my head at least, just means that the people who RP taking their armour off to rest no longer need to take that step. It certainly allows for a couple of extra lines to be written here and there, but it's pretty slim. If there are any fighters who think otherwise, I'd love to hear about the tangible positives of those changes.

Fighters getting utility NPCs interests me. It brings to mind the retainers from FFXIV, wherein you can send a servant/ally/etc out to go and collect basic resources for crafting/selling. But it's not something particularly fighter-centric, and it's not one that's purely RP. Still, it's an idea.

//

Monks being fine or not, I would love path options for monks, but it's a much bigger ask and I'd rather something smaller and more manageable without having too much risk of needing to rebalance mechanics.
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:57 pm

I'll reiterate the statement that rangers are in a really good place: They have -track, can read player tracks, reveal areas they've been to before, and increase party speed in the wild. These all do wonders for facilitating hunter, scout, and guide rp. Additionally, they can get any of the GSF perks quite easily.

I wonder if the way to go with fighters is to lean harder into their knowledge of weapons and armor in a way that provides party utility at later levels. Like... Temp essences last longer, or don't disappear on resting. Or resting with a fighter in party in a non-rest area can repair weapons & armor/shield/helm slightly. About all I can think of that's not a mechanical bonus.
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Aradin » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:33 pm

Enjoying this discussion.

I agree with the general consensus of "Fighter is so varied and far-reaching that it's a blank RP slate." As others have said, that makes creating RP cookies for it difficult. If you create abilities that are narrow in scope for a class that is super wide in scope, you pigeonhole people; you take choice away from them.
So I think for there to be successful Fighter RP cookies, you need to let Fighters retain the element of choice. That way they can continue to shape their RP in a way that suits them while getting fun lil' bits.

How I imagine this might take form. (All of the below numbers and abilities are random ones I pulled out of thin air; they're just for example)
At specific Fighter levels (let's say 7/14/21), Fighters would get the option to choose 1 of 3 different RP cookies. Each of these levels would have their own 3 cookies, giving us a total of 9 cookies for a Fighter to choose from over the course of their career (ending up with 3 of their choice by the end).
Now that the Fighter has choice, you can make those cookies more narrow in RP scope. Let's say I reach one of those cookie-getting levels and I see the following options:
1) Build temporary barricades/gates to better control battlefields/RP event security/etc.
2) Call a mercenary for 1 hour whose sole purpose is to guard an ally and take damage for them (bonus fun: you get to name the mercenary? "Noble Guardian" or "Street Thug", etc.)
3) Gain the ability to enter a 'Training' mode with another Fighter. You sacrifice xp to give them xp at a 100-10 rate; each xp tick takes 1 RL minute, giving you plenty of time to RP any training you're doing.

Then I can pick the option that's best suited for my character's RP/life path/journey. The options themselves narrow the Fighter's scope into a specific kind of Fighter, yes, but because the player has the chance to choose which cookies they get, agency is returned to them. And with 9 total cookies for each Fighter to choose over their life, it's unlikely you'll get two Fighters with the exact same 3 cookies; variety is retained!

Just a thought! It's similar to the way the Totem Path is implemented for 5e barbarians.

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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Quidix » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:38 pm

Just brainstorming a couple ideas of mundane benefits that could be more RP oriented:

- Deliver letter, after X in game hours, a letter is delivered to the specified character (and if offline, then goes into inventory upon login)
- Expedition which works like a teleport, but only to zones X transitions away
- Investigate works on more things (eg removed fixtures, stolen things from chest)
- Investigate can leave clues on people (eg "you notice the hands have some remains of coal" when stealing coal, or "there are few small marble flakes on the garment" after stealing a stone fixture)
- Investigate gives more information
- Wagon / cart that be used and boost carrying capacity for X hours (great for dex character)
- Learn bonus language
- Grant +50% movement speed for X turns on timer (similar to blinding speed, but no actual combat benefits)

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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:29 pm

-investigate is a criminally underused mechanic and I would wholeheartedly support more things interacting with it.
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by mjones3 » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:41 pm

What about at X levels of fighter you get automatic success on investigations to tell what weapon was used to kill someone if its one you have weapon spec for?

So lets say you are x level fighter and have weapon spec in 1 handed concussion. You could tell with -investigate no matter what that they were killed with a light flail, warhammer, mace, etc. Maybe with epic weapon spec it includes any elemental damages on the weapon if that's not already accounted for.

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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:02 am

The hard truth is that classes with less mechanical cookies are simply more difficult to RP and keep an interesting narrative that 'hooks' people in. It is not impossible. But remember the server before all these cookies? People still RPed and found ways to be interesting and do interesting things. It was more about their emotes and less about the tools in their character sheet. I'm not saying classes with cookies are bad, but I'm saying classes without cookies are like a slightly higher difficulty level of game play in the ongoing RP. if that makes any sense.
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by OleBlighty » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:52 am

Quidix wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:38 pm
Just brainstorming a couple ideas of mundane benefits that could be more RP oriented:



- Investigate works on more things (eg removed fixtures, stolen things from chest)
- Investigate can leave clues on people (eg "you notice the hands have some remains of coal" when stealing coal, or "there are few small marble flakes on the garment" after stealing a stone fixture)
- Investigate gives more information

- Grant +50% movement speed for X turns on timer (similar to blinding speed, but no actual combat benefits)

I love the idea of improving investigation information, just not sure how this would apply to "mundane" characters. It seems specific to high wisdom/int instead, and unfortunately a lot of melee-focused builds don't utilize those stats.

I like the idea of increased speed working for CON-heavy PCs.

STR-based ones could get a doubled carrying capacity.

I still think Dex-heavy PCs could get auto-climb successes in some areas.

mjones3 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:41 pm
What about at X levels of fighter you get automatic success on investigations to tell what weapon was used to kill someone if its one you have weapon spec for?

So lets say you are x level fighter and have weapon spec in 1 handed concussion. You could tell with -investigate no matter what that they were killed with a light flail, warhammer, mace, etc. Maybe with epic weapon spec it includes any elemental damages on the weapon if that's not already accounted for.
It would make sense to extend this to fixture destruction too. I would even argue that one might be able to determine how recently someone was killed/fixture was bashed based on decay or lack thereof.
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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Skarain » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:51 am

I like the idea that a Fighter, being a master of combat, could indeed train others - give them exp in RP outside combat, for example that 100-10 ration every 1 min, or even more. Since that is what EXP ultimately stands for: how good are you at murdering things in RPG's.

Just like a Loremaster can help you to learn languages faster, maybe a Fighter could help you to level faster. Perhaps there could be a 1% increase to exp gain while in party with a Fighter, scaling based on Fighter levels (0.1% to....1% or more) and heavily affected negatively by their multiclassing choices).

Potentially, a pure fighter could earn double their benefit given to others, to have spare exp to later "Drill" someone after the combat is done.

Suddenly, a pure Fighter would be everyone's best friend, and there is RP around being this master of combat. Even a Weapon Master or Rogue (dip) would lose a chunk of those benefits (potentially), because at that point the Fighter focuses on mastery of a Weapon, or Underhanded tactics, rather than the Art of Combat itself.

Maybe multiclassing would cut the benefits to 1/6, 1/4, or 1/2, based on what they multiclass to. A 30 Fighter should be A LOT better an instructor than a.... 25 Fighter/5 Paladin, or 23 Fighter/7 Weapon Master, to safeguard the benefits of being a dedicated Fighter, an inherent "Instructor" just by the virtue of their focus and experience .... and not the Commander like a Knight, Holy Warrior like a Paladin, or Master of Single Blade such as Weapon Master.

Obviously, there are fears that such features could be exploited.

I do not know if the benefit of a Fighter earning more EXP is broken or unfair. To me, it feels like a pleasant perk for playing a class that does (inherently) not have that many buttons to press. You will probably be spending plenty of EXP training others, too. I also do not think that a Fighter would be a good class to "grind to roll" with. A druid will probably solo much faster than a Fighter still, due to their army of summons.

As to the Drill ability exploitation, sure, a Fighter could end up using "Drill" ability while just standing with another dude and not actually Rping out the combat training at all. This could easily be fixed by making the ability to have a subtle but noticeable visual aura around the feet of the Fighter. That way, other players could easily notice those who are not even trying to RP it out (neiher RPing training or speaking of combat in RP) and report them for DMs to have a talk with.

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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Azensor » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:53 pm

Skarain wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:51 am
I like the idea that a Fighter, being a master of combat, could indeed train others - give them exp in RP outside combat, for example that 100-10 ration every 1 min, or even more. Since that is what EXP ultimately stands for: how good are you at murdering things in RPG's. -sniped-

Sounds like a pretty good idea, might be worth suggesting to the team?

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Re: RP Cookies: To add flavour to non-casters.

Post by Arcbled » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:39 pm

Okay yeah, I think that's a pretty damn good flavour for Fighters. It doesn't narrow them down too much (a bandit, a mercenary, a guard or a tribal warrior still benefits from educated martial instruction) and it provides a good mechanical reason to RP with a Fighter, AND to develop charaterisation for your Fighter, in the vein of 'what kind of a teacher are they'.
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