Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

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Anachorn
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Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Anachorn » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:42 am

Hi All,

We have a new feature we would like to add soon but its technically difficult to test it on the PGCC first so I would like to hear your thoughts here before we go live, here goes:

Fully Covered PCs, Examine and Disguise

PCs who are fully covered by clothes and armor will now be able to hide several details in their description when examined.


Update
  • The cover functionality must be enabled using the -cover command every time you login
  • The DC for the spot check to pierce the cover now changes with distance, the closer the examiner and examinee are the easier it gets to pierce it.



Update 2
  • When -cover is enabled and you are fully covered by clothes and armor, your original / disguised description will no longer be shown.
  • It makes it simpler to hide your identity because you don't have to worry about changing your description.
  • It further differentiates bluff-disguises and cover, while under a regular disguise you can look however you like, under cover no one sees anything but the cover itself and you are purposely hiding revealing features, so no description is needed beyond the PCs external appearance and the details that are automatically added to the description (mostly just parent race)



How do you cover yourself?
  • Fully covered means all visible armor slots (neck, hands, biceps) + a visible helm or hood, you don't need to wear actual gear in all slots, its enough you look covered.
  • Currently all hood types are treated as full cover even if the face is seen, we are working on adding deeper hoods for all races and once we do only the hoods that are deep will be counted as covering. For now please treat someone who is fully covered and wearing any hood as if his face is also covered by the hood.
  • Some races without dynamic appearance (Gnolls, Minautors, ...) cannot currently be covered, we are working on a solution for that.
How do you break someone's cover?
  • The cover can be broken by a spot check, we will adjust how hard it is as we go.
    I would like to emphasize this after reading some of the responses that missed it, a strong spotter will break the cover way more easily than he would a strong disguise, this feature will not make strong bluffers stronger or strong spotters weaker. (see next paragraphs for how this works with disguise)
  • We are looking into adding a listen check in case a covered individual that you are familiar with speaks next to you, but its more complicated so it won't be added initially
What happens when you examine a covered PC and didn't manage to break the cover?
  • It will be very visible in the PCs description that they are fully covered and they can be treated as suspicious.
  • The following properties are hidden on a covered PC:
    • Specific Race
      (You will always be able to tell someone's Parent Race, for example that he is an Elf, but you won't be able to tell if he is a Drow or a Wood Elf if you didn't see through the cover, same for dwarves, gnomes, etc.)
    • Abilities approximation
    • Harper Pin / Zhentarim Embelm
    • Slave Collar / Outcast status
    • Pirate Tattoos
  • The items in the list above are hidden only when you are fully covered. We may change it in the future so that covering your neck covers the slave collar, covering your hands covers the pirate tattoos, etc. But its not going to be in the initial release.
What is the interaction between Cover and Disguies?
  • Covered PCs cannot have their disguise broken: (Experimental)
    • The rational is that the disguise is below the cover, and therefore cannot be seen while a PC is covered.
    • The precise process is this, first we check if a person is covered, if he isn't - proceed as usual, if he is there is a spot check for penetrating that cover, if the spotter succeeded - proceed as usual, if you failed that check than the cover was not penetrated, and there will be no check to try and bypass disguise, whatever disguise you had will remain unbroken.
    • This will allow players with no bluff to hide their identity using the bluff system as long as the observer doesn't break their cover, but doing so requires covering themselves entirely which is suspicious and will cause an alert in their description.
    • Players with high bluff will still have the advantage of being able to remain disguised without being covered and therefore staying un-suspicious.
    • This is experimental and may change depending on how covered individuals are treated and how this affects the attractiveness of the bluff skill.
    • Just to clarify, there is currently no change in the (Disguised) tag when disguised, with or without cover.

Alright, now a few more notes for when this goes live:
  • You can now examine yourselves and see what someone of the same race, spot, lore as you would see when they look at you, this has some rolls involved so every time you examine yourself you will reroll (unlike when you examine someone else, then that roll happens only once in a while)
  • This update required changing a large amount of code and there may be some edge cases we missed, Once this goes live I would appreciate if you can post if you find any of the following issues:
    • Armor slots that appear covered but are not treated as such
    • Armor slots that appear uncovered but are treated as covered
    • Issues with wrong race (wild elf) or parent race (elf) with or without cover.
      (note, that if you see parent race instead of race when without cover, it may be because you didn't pass the lore check for identifying the race, that logic hasn't changed)
    • Rakasasha and Yuan-Ti - I think we got you covered ( Pun Intended ;) ), but to be extra cautious please test out how your race is displayed as much as possible when you first login, you can PM me privately if you find issues so you don't out yourselves.
    • Rakasasha and Yuan-Ti - On the bright side, this refactor will allow us to have you treated by NPCs as the race you appear to be, those fixes will hopefully be coming your way in the coming weeks.

And that's its, please let us know what you think, especially on the interaction between cover and disguise, suggestions for improvements and additional features are welcome :)
Last edited by Anachorn on Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:15 am, edited 8 times in total.

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CorsicanDoge
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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by CorsicanDoge » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:50 am

I love this. It'll finally put to rest the age old meme of "x-ray spot through full clothing to see sencliff pirate tattoos" and if guards/authorities/etc do not want this to be a thing then they can start cracking down/harassing on fully covered people in the more civilized parts of the setting.

Nitro
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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Nitro » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:09 am

This seems pretty excellent. My only concern is that people with a (disguised) tag being asked to remove their helmet/hood is going to increase drastically since it'd be a requirement to even attempt to pierce the disguise.

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Miaou
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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Miaou » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:12 am

This sounds really cool and a great expansion on the disguise system!

A few questions on how this will affect current mechanics.

1. Does the Cover change exile script at all? For example. Could a covered person be able to bypass and enter a settlement they are exiled in or will that remain based on bluff/perform disguise?

2. Will focus feats into divination play any role in breaking through covers? Or perhaps spell focus in transmutation/illusion assisting in it, maybe as a sort of suggestion.

3. How does this interact with polymorph, take a druid's wildshapes or elemental shapes, or the Shape Change spell? Will the system remain as is for the disguise portion but they can't "cover" themselves? This would also cover imps and their polymorph ability.

4. The explanation into how you actually break a cover check and how it operates is a tad confusing. Tell me if I get this correctly. This system will add a second layer over the current disguise system called Covered. A spotter must first make a non trivial spot check, assuming a pass they will be notified that the covered person is suspicious. How does one then examine further? Do you examine the person again to get to the disguise check?

5. Does this change any functionality of the (disguise) tag? Will a covered person still have that tag, or will the tag be absent perhaps?

6. Are you able to throw on a robe appearance that covers everything, or do you need to make sure that the base armour sections are covered regardless?

7. Heckin' good work thanks for it!

Edit: Forgot a question!

8. Harper/Zhent pin/badge is mentioned. Will these remain hidden from non-harper/zhent people? Or is it mentioned to be hidden from other agents?

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Nymann » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:16 am

I like these changes however what if you are like me on gotriik who literally asks everyone. Disguised or not to reveal their face.
Regardless if I know the player or not.

would you be able to see their skin color therefore knowing if it's a drow or elf.?
Personally feel it's a little bit odd staring directly at a darkskinned elf with white hair and have to rp it as a elf. When their traits are so different from other elves.

I mean a character have slain hundreds of drows who is almost covered with dark skin. But having no idea of spotting the one right of you
Wouldn't the WYSIWYG apply here?
Last edited by Nymann on Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Archon » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:19 am

It would still be good to have an option to opt in and out of the cover. Say, if I play a paladin, and want to have a collar (neck piece), gauntlets, and a plume helmet because it just looks good, I don't want to be considered covered and suspicious. That's just a basic warrior getup and armor style, with no actual attempt made to cover up the identity or traits otherwise.

As in, not all fully covered people are up to something shady. That's just fashion.

Anachorn
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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Anachorn » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:54 am

Nitro wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:09 am
This seems pretty excellent. My only concern is that people with a (disguised) tag being asked to remove their helmet/hood is going to increase drastically since it'd be a requirement to even attempt to pierce the disguise.
Yes, I expect it will, but in general it sounds reasonable that a person with clothes over every single piece of his body so his skin can't be seen and a helmet or hood on will look suspicious and be asked to remove his hood in settlements, what remains to be seen after going live is if this will be used to promote fun RP or just become annoying.
Miaou wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:12 am
This sounds really cool and a great expansion on the disguise system!

A few questions on how this will affect current mechanics.

1. Does the Cover change exile script at all? For example. Could a covered person be able to bypass and enter a settlement they are exiled in or will that remain based on bluff/perform disguise?

2. Will focus feats into divination play any role in breaking through covers? Or perhaps spell focus in transmutation/illusion assisting in it, maybe as a sort of suggestion.

3. How does this interact with polymorph, take a druid's wildshapes or elemental shapes, or the Shape Change spell? Will the system remain as is for the disguise portion but they can't "cover" themselves? This would also cover imps and their polymorph ability.

4. The explanation into how you actually break a cover check and how it operates is a tad confusing. Tell me if I get this correctly. This system will add a second layer over the current disguise system called Covered. A spotter must first make a non trivial spot check, assuming a pass they will be notified that the covered person is suspicious. How does one then examine further? Do you examine the person again to get to the disguise check?

5. Does this change any functionality of the (disguise) tag? Will a covered person still have that tag, or will the tag be absent perhaps?

6. Are you able to throw on a robe appearance that covers everything, or do you need to make sure that the base armour sections are covered regardless?

7. Heckin' good work thanks for it!

Edit: Forgot a question!

8. Harper/Zhent pin/badge is mentioned. Will these remain hidden from non-harper/zhent people? Or is it mentioned to be hidden from other agents?
1. No, it wasn't touched, only PCs are currently affected, we will look into it in the future but in general it won't be possible to completely fool settlement NPCs by wearing a cover.

2. Current divination texts in the description are unaffected by cover, it may be nice to add a feature for determining who someone is using it, I will discuss it with the team.

3. I left the interaction of shapechange disguise as it was so that shouldn't be different, I will check the code and consider what happens if a covered individual polymorphes, in general I think it will remove the cover.

4. When you examine a covered individual first of all you get a text in the examine warning they are covered and suspicious, then there is a spot check for penetrating the cover, if you failed the description pretty much ends there (+ the actual PC written description) and you don't try to bypass the disguise, if you succeeded things are as usual and you try to bypass the disguise.

5. Currently no.

6. Robe covers are taken into account when checking if a PC is covered, there will likely be slight issues there because there are many combinations of clothing's and robes, please let me know if you find any.

7. Welcome :)

8. They are hidden by the cover, but its open for discussion, I never played a harper/zhent so i'm not sure what they would prefer.

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by vaclavc » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:56 am

Looks like an interesting change! A question, though:

How does this new system interact with WYSIWYG? For example, I am a drow, disguised as normal elf.

1) In current system, I need to wear helmet and full body coverage, so that my dark skin and white hair remain hidden, in addition to my disguise. If I remove my helmet or uncover any part of my skin, others can see me as a drow, due to WYSIWYG.

2) In the new system: having full body coverage automatically marks me as a suspicious individual, no matter how good my disguise is. In case I am forced to remove my helmet or uncover any part of my skin, does it mean that I am automatically seen as a drow, no matter if my disguise was pierced or not?

Thanks,
V
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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Imperatrix » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:08 am

If cover gives a fixed spot DC before disguise is checked it sounds like people are just going to be getting a free disguise without the investment. Most disguises already use helms or hoods.

Disguise is most often used to do hostile or questionable things without being recognised and the only thing preventing it from being abused constantly is that it requires a skill investment. If people are going to be able to do this without a skill investment I foresee a lot of silly behaviour.

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Defense Light Fables » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:23 am

Simple!

If a man walks into your bank fully concealed with shades and a mask on with a ball cap with no identifiable markings, they are
SUSPICIOUS. It's obvious they're trying to conceal themselves, so engineer legislature around that 'abuse'.

(In character by the way)

If you don't, well, you're asking for trouble.

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by ReverentBlade » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:35 am

Anachorn wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:54 am
Nitro wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:09 am
This seems pretty excellent. My only concern is that people with a (disguised) tag being asked to remove their helmet/hood is going to increase drastically since it'd be a requirement to even attempt to pierce the disguise.
Yes, I expect it will, but in general it sounds reasonable that a person with clothes over every single piece of his body so his skin can't be seen and a helmet or hood on will look suspicious and be asked to remove his hood in settlements, what remains to be seen after going live is if this will be used to promote fun RP or just become annoying.

It will just become annoying. Played on several servers where this was the dynamic. Settlements just passed blanket laws that head coverings were not permitted in town. I played the arabic woman trope that was perfectly good aligned but wouldn't comply, and ended up harassed and pariahed. I strongly recommend reconsidering this system entirely, though I do sympathize about the realism aspect. Disguises and alias RP is already extremely prevalent and not so easy to counter, and I'm not convinced the RP coming from it is...well...very good. This will just be another "sheath your weapon!" thing that disrupts whatever else is going on.

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:03 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:35 am
Disguises and alias RP is already extremely prevalent and not so easy to counter, and I'm not convinced the RP coming from it is...well...very good. This will just be another "sheath your weapon!" thing that disrupts whatever else is going on.
I agree with this entirely. From what I've seen people are already metagaming with disguises by putting blank descriptions, so even if you have 120 spot you can't identify them with any meaningful information. Now we as the community have two choices in how we deal with this.

1. Make head-to-toe disguises illegal.
Guard: REMOVE THAT DISGUISE RIGHT NOW!
Mysterious Stranger: No.
Guard: !
2. Welcome our new Surface Drow Overlords.
Guard: I'm pretty sure the new chancellor is secretly a drow.
“The punishing of wits enhances their authority.”
Francis Bacon

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CorsicanDoge
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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by CorsicanDoge » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:05 am

You'll definitely start getting the fabled hood checks at Cordor but I do not see this flying in Andunor personally just because everyone there is already a massive degenerate (ICly). I'd probably take it IC first and petition the local player government for some kind of exemption or licensure after demonstrating you are, in fact, not a secret cyric and doing it for cultural reasons.

obligatory "oi do you have a loicense for that hood" is warranted though.

Also the herald has secret drow detection technology that make it outcast/uders can't apply for citizenship in surface settlements. But yes, you may have more infilitrators crawling about.

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Drowboy » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:12 am

Infiltrators are not inherently bad, however.

Sounds cool other than the potential for lowest-common-denominator 'take off your hood and helmet [criminal scum/before I talk to you, I do this to everyone, promise/or I'll start blasting]' "rp" but that's already something that happens.
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

Anachorn
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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Anachorn » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:14 am

Nymann wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:16 am
I like these changes however what if you are like me on gotriik who literally asks everyone. Disguised or not to reveal their face.
Regardless if I know the player or not.

would you be able to see their skin color therefore knowing if it's a drow or elf.?
Personally feel it's a little bit odd staring directly at a darkskinned elf with white hair and have to rp it as a elf. When their traits are so different from other elves.

I mean a character have slain hundreds of drows who is almost covered with dark skin. But having no idea of spotting the one right of you
Wouldn't the WYSIWYG apply here?

Well, if they are covered you can't see the hair, or eyes and determine that they are a Drow, if they are uncovered or you penetrated the cover than you can see the skin color and if your lore skill is high enough (and these days it almost always is) the description will also tell you they are Drow.

Archon wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:19 am
It would still be good to have an option to opt in and out of the cover. Say, if I play a paladin, and want to have a collar (neck piece), gauntlets, and a plume helmet because it just looks good, I don't want to be considered covered and suspicious. That's just a basic warrior getup and armor style, with no actual attempt made to cover up the identity or traits otherwise.

As in, not all fully covered people are up to something shady. That's just fashion.
I'll see how difficult it is to add, although for now having the neck uncovered is a pretty small change in appearance and will make sure you don't get the fully covered behavior/texts
vaclavc wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:56 am
Looks like an interesting change! A question, though:

How does this new system interact with WYSIWYG? For example, I am a drow, disguised as normal elf.

1) In current system, I need to wear helmet and full body coverage, so that my dark skin and white hair remain hidden, in addition to my disguise. If I remove my helmet or uncover any part of my skin, others can see me as a drow, due to WYSIWYG.

2) In the new system: having full body coverage automatically marks me as a suspicious individual, no matter how good my disguise is. In case I am forced to remove my helmet or uncover any part of my skin, does it mean that I am automatically seen as a drow, no matter if my disguise was pierced or not?

Thanks,
V
First, seeing through a cover will be easier for spotters than seeing through the disguise of a dedicated bluffer so the cover will usually not help their disguise, it seems likely we will add a toggle option for disabling that feature, then a dedicated bluffer can disable the cover, dress however he likes while in disguise and not get any benefits or disadvantages from this system.

Regarding what race you are in the examine while bluffed, I did not touch that behavior, as far as I know it will show the true race (Drow) if the spotter has high enough lore regardless of disguise, having the ability to somewhat change your race in the examine window while bluffing sounds cool but its not really related to the cover feature so please make a separate suggestion for it in the suggestions forum.
Imperatrix wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:08 am
If cover gives a fixed spot DC before disguise is checked it sounds like people are just going to be getting a free disguise without the investment. Most disguises already use helms or hoods.

Disguise is most often used to do hostile or questionable things without being recognised and the only thing preventing it from being abused constantly is that it requires a skill investment. If people are going to be able to do this without a skill investment I foresee a lot of silly behaviour.
Defense Light Fables wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:23 am
Simple!

If a man walks into your bank fully concealed with shades and a mask on with a ball cap with no identifiable markings, they are
SUSPICIOUS. It's obvious they're trying to conceal themselves, so engineer legislature around that 'abuse'.

(In character by the way)

If you don't, well, you're asking for trouble.
ReverentBlade wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:35 am
Anachorn wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:54 am
Nitro wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:09 am
This seems pretty excellent. My only concern is that people with a (disguised) tag being asked to remove their helmet/hood is going to increase drastically since it'd be a requirement to even attempt to pierce the disguise.
Yes, I expect it will, but in general it sounds reasonable that a person with clothes over every single piece of his body so his skin can't be seen and a helmet or hood on will look suspicious and be asked to remove his hood in settlements, what remains to be seen after going live is if this will be used to promote fun RP or just become annoying.

It will just become annoying. Played on several servers where this was the dynamic. Settlements just passed blanket laws that head coverings were not permitted in town. I played the arabic woman trope that was perfectly good aligned but wouldn't comply, and ended up harassed and pariahed. I strongly recommend reconsidering this system entirely, though I do sympathize about the realism aspect. Disguises and alias RP is already extremely prevalent and not so easy to counter, and I'm not convinced the RP coming from it is...well...very good. This will just be another "sheath your weapon!" thing that disrupts whatever else is going on.
Yep, these are all valid points, the basic idea is that completely covering yourself from head to toe is suspicious, and its ok to RP this as being suspicious when you see someone like this and care, especially in a violent world like FR / Arelith. But other then being suspicious, its an easy and viable way to hide your identity, you don't need to be a master of disguise to do it, covering yourself is enough.

The questions are how do we allow this while preventing abuse, making sure it doesn't cause annoyance and still giving Bluff the honor it deserves as a way to pretend to be someone you are not without raising suspicion. Whatever we decide we will closely monitor how people use it when its out and adjust it accordingly, this will likely be a process not something that we will just set and forget about.

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by CorsicanDoge » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:20 am

Perform/bluff would still be useful if we had change self/alter self spells and could look inconspicuous and still be disguised without a hood. This spell could have it's own drawbacks and be liable to be dispelled since it's only a lvl 2 spell. It doesn't neccessarily mean the death knell of heavy investment.

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Kalopsia » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:30 am

Would being concealed like this also alter the floating name above a character?

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Red_Wharf » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:39 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:35 am
Settlements just passed blanket laws that head coverings were not permitted in town. I played the arabic woman trope that was perfectly good aligned but wouldn't comply, and ended up harassed and pariahed.
That's acceptable in a town ruled by the Banite faith, because that's just a plain tyrannical law. I hope the settlement lawmakers and citizens alike realize that when this update hits, and roleplay accordingly. If someone gets stabbed by a guard because it was raining and they decided to wear a hood but the law says that's not allowed, well, it's time to rebel and stab back. :P

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Anachorn » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:45 am

Kalopsia wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:30 am
Would being concealed like this also alter the floating name above a character?
That's a question I would like your input on, right now it won't because there wasn't a consensus if its needed, we can easily add a tag or change the color of a persons floating name when he is covered if we believe its beneficial and won't have any drawbacks.

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Imperatrix » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:47 am

Being suspicious while covered is mostly going to be irrelevant because going for a casual walk through a city or visiting the bank isn't the likely use it's going to see. What it is going to be used for is anonymously killing people, summoning demons and/or undead, and generally being antagonistic in a context in which being asked to show your face doesn't matter. Sure, presumably anyone with a spot investment could see through this but it would be silly to give people something so deleterious for free when the counter is to invest in a skill and the gear in a meta in which skill bloat is already horrible. A lot of characters don't even have access to spot.

A synergy between cover and disguise that would make more sense to me would be for cover to simply give a bonus (around +5) to your disguise skill. This makes sense because just covering your face isn't an impenetrable means of concealing your identity. There are all manner of things that people look for when attempting to ascertain someones identity - height, weight, posture, voice, demeanour, etc. - these are all things that someone skilled in identifying people would check for, and things that someone skilled in disguise can adjust.

This would mean people wouldn't be getting a free disguise as you'd still need an investment to make good use of it, and you could still ask "suspicious individuals" to unmask to get a better look at them.
Last edited by Imperatrix on Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Anachorn » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:53 am

CorsicanDoge wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:20 am
Perform/bluff would still be useful if we had change self/alter self spells and could look inconspicuous and still be disguised without a hood. This spell could have it's own drawbacks and be liable to be dispelled since it's only a lvl 2 spell. It doesn't neccessarily mean the death knell of heavy investment.
Those sound cool, in my opinion rather then being used instead of bluff/disguise, having those spells simply improve the bluff skill of the target( who will than use it with the disguise system) will keep the Bluff skill needed and be simpler to implement, but its not entirely connected to the cover feature so please make a separate suggestion for it on the suggestions board if you would like to see it happen

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:13 pm

I really dislike disguises already because they essentially act as a way to avoid consequences. Consequences are important to keep the flow of RP going. When you get killed by a disguised character with stoneskin and no description, there is nothing at all you can really do to force consequences on your killer. You can't report them to the guards, or form a party to hunt them, or post a bounty on them, because all the information you have is that they were a fully warded figure in a hood/cloak. The most you would be able to do is tell them if it was a human, an elf, or a dwarf, but now with cover we probably won't even be able to do that in most cases. So any kind of further interaction will simply not happen after that, the person who killbashed you with barely any RP can continue happily living alongside you in whatever settlement with no repercussions.

For as long as I've played on Arelith, surface drow have been greatly discouraged, as have been outcasts and pirates hanging out around surface settlements other than Sencliff. This has always been mostly enforced ICly by players, whether they are town guards, paladins, vigilantes, or whatever. Speaking as one of these players who has invested everything in the Spot skill on a character who hunts said drow/outcast/pirates, to where I have 120+ Spot, this feels like a slap in the face, honestly. Now I'll have to either hostile and kill nearly every hooded person I come across (because lets face it 9/10 won't be cooperative even if they are good aligned), or do the complete opposite and be buddies with pirates and drow, with very little room to compromise.

Cover is going to drastically lower the quality of RP for everyone on the server, force us Spotters to be hyper aggressive to all disguised/covered players, and encourage more Surface Drow and Friendly Pirate/Outcast buggery around settlements which last time I checked the DM's explicitly said they did not want, going so far as to take control of NPC's to intervene when player characters did allow it. Is this really a needed change when DEX builds and stealthers are already way stronger and more prevalent than spotters in the meta? If anything, I think disguises need to be nerfed, and there needs to be a HARD REQUIREMENT that you have a detailed character description, detailed enough so that anyone who read it could easily identify your character at a glance.
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Drowboy
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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Drowboy » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:19 pm

That seems a bit of a hyperbolic response for a mechanic that basically says 'this person dressed sus is sus' and removes tags, which, since we're getting real personal here: Are bad for RP and have led to a sort of automation of checklist style 'does this person have tags I don't like -> does this person have disguise behind name -> !' pseudo-rp that npc-ifies both sides and doesn't lead to a good story anyway.

If you think someone's abusing mechanics to get away with griefing without consequences, like, report it. Even just the time and server, logs exist for this reason.
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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Nymann » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:23 pm

Real question is... What do you do if your head model is a hood :o

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Re: Upcoming Change - Cover, Disguise and Examine

Post by Talvenlapsi » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:32 pm

Nitro wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:09 am
This seems pretty excellent. My only concern is that people with a (disguised) tag being asked to remove their helmet/hood is going to increase drastically since it'd be a requirement to even attempt to pierce the disguise.
This. I already get asked to remove hood constantly when walking in town because of (disguised) tag, without full cover even, sometimes even when not doing anything more suspicious than walking into bank and out. OTherwise it sounds fine.

What I was thinking, is that the full-cover will affect to those that aren't exactly trying to even push a cover or disguise to themselves? Knights in full armor and helmet, are they going to be treated immediate SUS because of it?

Honestly the (disguised) tag on full cover people will just push "remove hood now", like it already does. Because the tag immediately marks you sus at some people. Cover or not, you're always sus because you have (disguised). But now, even if you're not (disguised) but are covered for maybe other reasons, SUS.

Idk. I like and don't like this idea. Has it's problems. Excited to see how it develops though from feedback.
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