New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

[a shrouded figure]

Everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face.

[CNS]

Honed Edge (Fighter 18, Str 17)
- When not using a temporary essence or poison, your weapon gains +3 physical damage.

My first reaction to this is: A feat that's worse than consumables seems like a bad investment when you can buy more damage.

My second reaction to this is: Oh, this lets you even further exceed DR to put out serious damage, especially against stoneskin (Until you have +5 to beat it) or EDR (Forever).

Yes. Carry on. They can't buy immunity to being hit.

Don't forget defensive essences

[Drowboy]

1d6 essence averages out to 3ish anyway, don't it? I think I'd rather add to physical, assuming I've got the extra feats. Suppose it depends what fighters end up looking like when these are all done.

[Mattamue]

First thing that came to mind is that naginata STR flurry on a 20 F 7 WM 3 Monk seems like a way to exploit Action Surge & Precision Strikes.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

First thing that came to mind is that naginata STR flurry on a 20 F 7 WM 3 Monk seems like a way to exploit Action Surge & Precision Strikes.

maybe, thought they will miss out on other benefits that several fighter lvls gives when you are wearing heavy armor. Also its not as easy for them to 3 stat anymore (after their Naginata nerf) which they will need to for a funcational amount of AC. Said build also lacks uncanny dodge. We would have to compare it to 3 monk/ swashbuckler x/ something x builds for Naginata as swashbuckler also giving scaling ac.

Action surge is also diminishing returns on a build that already has great APR. Compare the action surge of a Naginata weapon master versus a Scythe weapon master to catch what I am trying to say.

[Nevrus]

We could also make action surge require wearing armor to ensure it doesn't stack with ubab which requires you are not!

[a shrouded figure]

I think 19 EDR and Heavy Armor DI are going to be huge helps. I’m excited for those two- EDR always meant completely neutering your damage as a melee it felt like.

[redhawx]

How about letting fighter levels stack with Earthkin-Defender levels for purposes of those that increase use of armor?

[Drowboy]

Thinking about the ranger feats. You're looking at about 50 AB vs favoreds, juuuust shy of 600 hp, strangers have decent damage, and 6 natural regen + blade thirst, 47ish? Ac hasted. Not terrible. I almost would tank the stats a little more to try for the new EDR, but that might be a bit much to ask featwise. Maybe the call of the wild feats could give a little DR (a little) or DI while in nature areas?

I don't think the 10 vamp regen is worth 2 feats (sorry!), so I ignored it- if you assume you're looking at 3 successful hits, or so, that's 15ish healing a round? Adds up over time, I guess, but you'd end up trading favored's for it which I'm not a huge fan of.

Seems sturdy in theory but I'd have to actually try it.

[Nitro]

I would never pay a feat for something as unreliable as 5 vampiric regeneration, let alone two feats. If it was a single feat for 10 (which averages out to 5) I might consider it.

Improved call of the wild also seems to be in a weird place. I can't imagine many ranger 21+ builds that would deliberately go 17+ CON and then use an epic feat for +3 regen on top of their existing regen.

[Arienette]

Currently deep deep fighter gets their last set of class cookies at level 28.

Changing this so that they are granted at lvl 26 or 27 could make it so a 27/3 or 26/4 fighter build is viable.

[preggy]

As a slight query, is there any consideration to have the feats perform slightly better for completely pure builds. 30 fighter, 30 barbarian, etc?

[a shrouded figure]

Personally, the 1 APR should be Fighter 30. That’s basically giving fighters Thundering Rage at level 20- it’s not like they have a shortage of bonus feats.

[redhawx]

+2 Ab for STR rangers might be abit over the top. They already recieve alot of attack bonus through Bane of Enemies and the fact they can easily gain hold of +5 enchantment through bladethirst. Perhaps let that feat that allow them to gain full STR mod for damage of their off hand weapon instead of only half the str mod? That would to speak about a true mastery of dual-wielding.

[Gouge Away]

What I'd really like is to be able to play a big, dumb 6-10 int thug who isn't eligible for expertise but can still take a pounding and won't die instantly in combat. Historically you just need that 13 int too much to play something like that and be even remotely competitive even if on a troglodyte barbarian or something, so even our dumb monsters on Arelith are usually pretty smart.

The way to do this would almost have to be through EDR and tons of hit points. These suggestions seem to be it's getting there but I wonder if it's enough, or if anyone else even wants that archetype to be possible.

edit.. I think the "Perfect Health" feat might be one thing that could bring additional benefit. I'd like to see con-based fighters be a thing with massive amounts of hit points and some EDR and who do competent damage but not crazy bursts like a str weapon master.

[Nevrus]

Personally, the 1 APR should be Fighter 30. That’s basically giving fighters Thundering Rage at level 20- it’s not like they have a shortage of bonus feats.

Thundering Rage comes on top of Rage which already gives +2 AB and lots and lots of damage and big fat temp HP that's not dependent on Barbarian level, lasts longer, and has a shorter cooldown.

It hasn't thrown the balance out of whack.

Allowing fighters access to a worse version is going to bring them closer to Barbarian while still making Barbarian the clear winner in capability if they're well-invested.

[Tsunami]

How about letting fighter levels stack with Earthkin-Defender levels for purposes of those that increase use of armor?

This... I think the class with Defender in the name should probably have access to the Damage immunity or other considerations thrown their way.

Also love the idea of giving ranger lifesteal on hit, but flat regen seems a little out of their 'feel'? Perhaps consideration to upping the numbers or consistency of the lifesteal, but removing the flat regen?

Just my opinion/feedback, love the concept of the changes overall - keep up the great work Gar!

Kind Regards
-Icy

[Scylon]

Seems like some good stuff. But needs a bit of tweaking I think. Anything not listed is fine as is.

FIGHTER

Epic Second Wind (Fighter 21, Str 21)
-In addition to everything else, Blind immunity. This would make someone who invest heavy in fighter to be immune to WoF spams.

Armor Mastery (Fighter 14, Con 15)
- Persistent effect
- While wearing heavy armor, a fighter gets an additional 10% to all DI.
This should include elemental damage. Also it should be available to a dwarven defender, as it specializes in defenses.

Epic Armor Mastery (Fighter 21, Con 17)
-The bonus from armor mastery is raised to 20%
Similar to above, however I think it needs a much higher Con requirement as an extra 20% is huge. Again, should be available to dwarven defender as a defense expert.

Honed Edge (Fighter 18, Str 17)
- When not using a temporary essence or poison, your weapon gains +3 physical damage.
This is actually kind of meh. maybe +4 or 5?

Action Surge (Fighter 20, Str 17)
- Standard action - 5 minute cooldown
- Fighter gains 1 APR for 1 turn
I don't liek this one as it seems to close to barb rage. I'd probably just not include it.

Precision Strikes (Fighter 16, Str 17)
- Toggleable combat stance similar to power attack / expertise
- 2 less APR, raises AB by 5.
EDIT: Another option here would be to lower crit multiplier by 1, which is something that is now possible.
I like the idea of +5AB or even +10 with 0% chance to crit.

Blood Lust (Ranger 15, Str 15)
A ranger's equipped weapon(s) gain +5 vampiric regen. This is the vanilla vampiric regen which has a 50% chance of applying and stacks with blade thirst.
This one is very meh. I wouldn't spend a feat on it.

Improved Blood Lust (Ranger 21, Str 23)
The bonus from Blood Lust is increased to +10.
This one, not so bad.

Dual wield mastery (Ranger 20, Str 17)
-A ranger with this feat gains +2 ab while dual wielding.
I love this this one. Be nice to see it free for ranger, and available to a fighter at a certain level as they would need to spend at least 2 fears to make it worth it. (3 of they wanted improved dual, so 4 fears is a big investment)

[msterswrdsmn]

Not really a fan of the original idea. Reason being it locks very specific classes into being STR based. You -can-, if you want, make a DEX based character with a lot of fighter levels. The original idea locks you into "Must be STR based AND mostly fighter" to gain the benefits. A lot of the benefits also seem to be tied more to CON, which really doesn't help with the STR based drain, as even -warlocks- can make effective CON builds.

If you're looking for something to address fighter specifically, it would probably be best to address fighter specifically. Ex: Mounted path (both lancers and archers, less specalized than the chevaliers with their charge, but still focused on mounted combat)

Fighters are boring because they're really just feats, feats, and feats with little to show for it unless you get creative. With a few creative paths, you'd be able to visibly show, both rp wise and build wise, some real differentiation and progress (ex: Hordelands Mongal style mounted archer, or a heavy infantry lancer that specalizes in killing large, chargey-creatures like mounted units, beasts, etc)

One thing the classes you mentioned that you don't want to buff (Bard and paladin specifically) don't have a lot of is room for extra feats. Especially things like the DIV bard, which requires something like 6-7 feats right off the rip to be effective at being an AC tank (weapon focus, power attack, divine might, divine shield, expertise, blind fight, improved expertise). Without multiclass trickery, thats 7 out of 8 feats that you get as a human. As a non-human, thats -all- your feats.

That said, perhaps tying STR bonuses to feats that already have a STR requirement, or giving bonuses similar to the ones given to spell focused mages (ex: evocation gaining infinite magic missle)

Feats this could probably work with would be:
-Power Attack/Imp. Power Attack (probably negate the bonus if you have certain classes, like rogues with stealth movement and monk levels)
-Great Cleave
-Improved Critical (small bonus, like massive crit 1d6!)
-Overwhelming Crits (ironically underwhelming feats, as the bonus is small and unaffected by crit modifiers)

As far as stats go
Base STR 20+: Gain the ability to use an effect similar to Bigby's Forceful hand where you can attempt to bull rush an opponent (with a heavy cooldown)
Base STR 25+: Gain the ability to use Balgarans iron horn with a short range and long cooldown

So on, so forth.

Also; STR monks are awful, especially compared to DEX monks, with very few exceptions (ranger/monk with mostly ranger levels). I don't think you need to worry classes with heavy monk levels being a huge issue.

[a shrouded figure]

I have to agree with the above a bit. It would be interesting if we could buff str while not destroying build diversity. Some ideas would be to add feats locked behind alignment or class restrictions? Maximum base stats? “Charisma less than 13” for instance would block a feat from any divine might build if that was the goal.

[Xerah]

Totally disagree. You still have all the original dex stuff that you could have done before.

[Scylon]

Totally disagree. You still have all the original dex stuff that you could have done before.

Agreed.

The point of this is not specifically to buff say a fighter, but to make strength more competitive. I think he's focused on fighter levels at this time to make it so a purely non magic class can do what he does, and well. Dex is king because you get AC, AB, and magical damage from weapons/magic/divine which typically a strength based character can't defend against.

[jomonog]

Generally like em all, a few comments:

Epic second wind - would consider handing this one out to fighter for free as well although its reasonably powerful. Just dont see myself spending a feat to get it and don't think it would be game breaking if fighter got it for free at that level and strength requirement.

Action surge - might be too strong if it stacks with haste.

Precision strikes - I'd make it +5Ab and -5 base damage but still let it crit at the same multiple. My logic is that this is still balanced based on the rough difference between a dex and strength version of the same build, where by going strength instead of dex you roughly end up with +X average damage per hit but lose around X ac in the trade off. So this mode kind of undoes the difference...

Agree with suggestions above it would be good if the selectable fighter feats were also available to earthkin defender.

Dual wield mastery/call of the wild. I think these should be gated at higher strength/con requirements to put them well outside of range of any dex/divine build that might otherwise be able to change starting stats to get them (although im not 100% sure thats possible but they do seem low enough to at least try a few sub-race combinations).

EDR 1/2/3 to 19 con. Like this, wouldnt be surprised though if some dex builds can make use of it (although probably wont be gamebreaking).

[a shrouded figure]

If precise strikes goes +AB for -Damage I feel like it would have to be 2:1. Generally speaking making contact is already a huge bonus to damage.

** +5ab / -10 damage

[Ork]

Revive 20/7/3? Reverting lore would fix that right up.