New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Post Reply
Arienette
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:56 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Arienette » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:27 am

Is there any way it could be taken under consideration to add some STR based bonuses to Cleric as well?

Since the dispel CL change was made, STR Battle Clerics have been pigeon holed into high CL builds with no room for 5 or so fighter levels which negatively effected their AB, feat availability, etc.

Their AC is relatively low in the current meta and their physical damage is lackluster outside of burst.

Could some of these feats be available to Clerics with suffice to STR stat? The Battle Cleric is an old standby class style that was effectively nerfed by the Dispel change and has not been given any positive attention in a while as far as I know.

User avatar
garrbear758
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:48 am

Arienette wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:27 am
Is there any way it could be taken under consideration to add some STR based bonuses to Cleric as well?

Since the dispel CL change was made, STR Battle Clerics have been pigeon holed into high CL builds with no room for 5 or so fighter levels which negatively effected their AB, feat availability, etc.

Their AC is relatively low in the current meta and their physical damage is lackluster outside of burst.

Could some of these feats be available to Clerics with suffice to STR stat? The Battle Cleric is an old standby class style that was effectively nerfed by the Dispel change and has not been given any positive attention in a while as far as I know.
Absolutely not.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

Arigard
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:48 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Arigard » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:49 am

Nevrus wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:18 am
Since you can tweak the crit multiplier now, what about a "haymaker" feat. -10 ab, -10 ac, increases the crit multiplier by 2. When on, you can't take any other action besides attacking, and once activated you are stuck in it for 5 rounds. Basically used for "well, I still can't hit these 70 ac 40+ save dex builds without getting lucky, may as well go for the gold".
You need to actually hit the AC with a confirmed roll that doesn't succeed on nat 20 in order to crit so this would do nothing other than make you easier to hit and let the dex build maybe drop IE to do so even more. Just... To throw that out there.
As Nevrus said, you can't crit what you can't hit, so all doing anything to criticals would do is make it easier for the mid tier and lower AC builds to be stream-rolled.

The difficulty of this present situation from where I see it, is tweaking mechanics so that a position doesn't exist where you either only ever have a 0.3% chance of hitting versus the current meta (*coughs monk dip*) (or both only have a 0.3% chance and you stand there for hours mindlessly swinging at each other vs every strength build becoming "I'm going to one round everything out of existence" with pure damage and AB buffs. Then the second issue IMO is not bottle-necking the solution too much by class (i.e if you want to do it, you'll need to really take negatives somewhere else), so that people are not mechanically 'forced' or 'in a huge detriment' if they do not simply pick the overwhelming superior option. Keeping as many options open to diversity as possible is pretty awesome, I feel as long as there is correct risk vs reward.
Gorehound

Red_Wharf
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 5:26 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Red_Wharf » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:57 am

I have an idea for a feat, Shield Bash. Please make fun of me if it's too dumb.

With this feat a character can attempt to shield bash their opponent into temporarily breaking their defense for an incoming attack. If successful, the opponent is considered flatfoot for the next round, or maybe half the next round? Perhaps losing some Dodge AC instead would be less overpowered, but then it becomes Taunt with extra steps, although it could be an option for characters unable to spend skill points in Taunt, and we all know how starved we are in this department. What's better?

The shield bash is considered a melee touch attack, and if it hits, the strength of the defender is then compared to the strength of the attacker to find out if the opponent's defense was broken or not.

It could be something like this: 1d20 + Attacker Strength Modifier vs 1d20 + Defender Strength Modifier.

The cooldown for this ability could be 1 minute, 2 minutes? A bashed character should also be immune to further shield bashing attempts after being successfully bashed, for a certain amount of time.

User avatar
garrbear758
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:21 am

Red_Wharf wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:57 am
I have an idea for a feat, Shield Bash. Please make fun of me if it's too dumb.

With this feat a character can attempt to shield bash their opponent into temporarily breaking their defense for an incoming attack. If successful, the opponent is considered flatfoot for the next round, or maybe half the next round? Perhaps losing some Dodge AC instead would be less overpowered, but then it becomes Taunt with extra steps, although it could be an option for characters unable to spend skill points in Taunt, and we all know how starved we are in this department. What's better?

The shield bash is considered a melee touch attack, and if it hits, the strength of the defender is then compared to the strength of the attacker to find out if the opponent's defense was broken or not.

It could be something like this: 1d20 + Attacker Strength Modifier vs 1d20 + Defender Strength Modifier.

The cooldown for this ability could be 1 minute, 2 minutes? A bashed character should also be immune to further shield bashing attempts after being successfully bashed, for a certain amount of time.
Nothing I add is going to flat foot. That is extremely overpowered.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

User avatar
Mattamue
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 468
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:45 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Mattamue » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:35 am

What about a shield bash that reduced Dodge and dex ac? Leaving armor and shield so it isn't as effective against str builds, but knocks down Dex and div.

Who is the audience for this post?


a shrouded figure
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:18 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by a shrouded figure » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:07 am

So after some theory crafting- my build is complete. The greatest warrior the world has ever seen... meta making... ground breaking... game changing. I offer you... Mongo the Raging Ram Riding Rammer....

18 Fighter... 7 weapon master... and you know the tiny tiny wild dwarf is a cavalier...

Weapon of Choice? lance- duh. 20% DI? Of course he has it. EDR 3? Check and mate. He’s fast... he’s brutal... he’s Mongo the Raging Ram Riding Rammer. Massive ab... massive immunity... massive damage... massive... horse. No .. no... the horse becomes tiny!?! Oh screw it all...

Babylon System is the Vampire
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:14 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:36 am

Nevrus wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:18 am
Since you can tweak the crit multiplier now, what about a "haymaker" feat. -10 ab, -10 ac, increases the crit multiplier by 2. When on, you can't take any other action besides attacking, and once activated you are stuck in it for 5 rounds. Basically used for "well, I still can't hit these 70 ac 40+ save dex builds without getting lucky, may as well go for the gold".
You need to actually hit the AC with a confirmed roll that doesn't succeed on nat 20 in order to crit so this would do nothing other than make you easier to hit and let the dex build maybe drop IE to do so even more. Just... To throw that out there.
Huh...20 years later and I still learn new stuff about this game. I just assumed a nat 20 hit was the same as a regular hit.

Wrips
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:06 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Wrips » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:57 am

I really don't see any huge dividends paid for the investment required to play an EDR Barbarian: you lose 2 AB at minimum, and need to choose to either lose 1 more AB, 2 AC or 6 damage - on a build that already was only competitive during rage. That ends with a Barbarian that has 44-45 (instead of 47) AB and around 64 AC on IE (self buffed). For that, you gain 60 HP and 9 EDR. This build condenmed to lose against anything it trades on melee, as I have personally seen.

The point being: EDR isn't remotely attractive to be a source of damage mitigation that melee low AC builds suffer currently, compared to the sheer DPS they are subject to and their own sacrifices they need to make to qualify for that, all which have their own consequences (lower ab and dmg will allow people to play more aggressively against you, likely reducing the efficacy of any increased survivability gained from going EDR route).

I perfectly agree that Warlocks and Druids don't need have their own survivability increased and further DI feats are probably not a good idea (especially the one that increases DI by 20%) but I also don't see EDR, as it is currently, a useful feature to build a melee character around. That's the reason I suggested a modification that would only apply to melee characters and would give something between 5% and 10% extra DI in total. Hardly a DIcalypse.

Anyway, I don't really see how the new Mighty Rage helps Barbarian. They'll probably lose 1 AB for going 19 CON and will need to sacrifice something like Epic Weapon Specialization to take the feat (since Mighty Rage in an improved version of the feat at level 21). It's likely that Barbarian will need to be subject to a small revision on their AB/AC numbers, if increasing survivability through a more competitive access to DR or DI is frowned upon. DI, in particular, can be an effective tool to calibrate damage mitigation, as it becomes more effective the higher the damage they are subject to, and that helps a build that is probably going eat a few criticals face on.

-stick-
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by -stick- » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:22 am

Epic Armor Mastery (Fighter 21, Con 17)
-The bonus from armor mastery is raised to 20%

Precision Strikes (Fighter 16, Str 17)
- Toggleable combat stance similar to power attack / expertise
- 2 less APR, raises AB by 5.

I was thinking that maybe combining those two somehow would be cool, in my opinion permanent -20%di is too strong
but if its toggleable with some penalty it will be fair

a shrouded figure
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:18 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by a shrouded figure » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:53 am

-stick- wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:22 am
Epic Armor Mastery (Fighter 21, Con 17)
-The bonus from armor mastery is raised to 20%

Precision Strikes (Fighter 16, Str 17)
- Toggleable combat stance similar to power attack / expertise
- 2 less APR, raises AB by 5.

I was thinking that maybe combining those two somehow would be cool, in my opinion permanent -20%di is too strong
but if its toggleable with some penalty it will be fair
So should we add a damage vulnerability to E-Dodge?

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Ork » Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:25 pm

Give Mighty Rage for free at L21.

Quidix
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 399
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:49 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Quidix » Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:30 pm

Should Earthkin Defender qualify for some of these feats?

a shrouded figure
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:18 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by a shrouded figure » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:14 pm

Quidix wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:30 pm
Should Earthkin Defender qualify for some of these feats?
Maybe? Depends if the rework is good or not - lol.

User avatar
garrbear758
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:23 pm

Ork wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:25 pm
Give Mighty Rage for free at L21.
I'll have to consider this a little more and talk with the team, but I actually really like this idea the more I think about it.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

User avatar
garrbear758
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:24 pm

Quidix wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:30 pm
Should Earthkin Defender qualify for some of these feats?
I'm gonna say no unless Aniel tells me otherwise. The rework for EkD was planned well before these feats were even in the idea phase.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

User avatar
Scylon
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:49 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Scylon » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:26 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:24 pm
I'm gonna say no unless Aniel tells me otherwise. The rework for EkD was planned well before these feats were even in the idea phase.
So... umm... where are we at with that? :P

User avatar
Jagel
Posts: 1250
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:50 pm
Location: Scandinavia

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Jagel » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:22 am

The DI/DR synergy should be watched closely but my take is it only becomes super oppressive when coupled with sneak/crit immunity.

Quidix
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 399
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:49 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Quidix » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:23 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
Precision Strikes (Fighter 16, Str 17)
- Toggleable combat stance similar to power attack / expertise
- 2 less APR, raises AB by 5.
EDIT: Another option here would be to lower crit multiplier by 1, which is something that is now possible.
The +5 AB, crit multiplier=1 feels like a very neat stance to counter the high AC meta. Could this not be made available more widely than fighter though? The high-AC meta is a problem for many classes, not just fighters (and the crit=1 makes it very hard to abuse as reduces burst a lot)

johnnybgoode
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:02 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by johnnybgoode » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:24 pm

Odd thought but in a flair of a sort of realism gave we thought about slapping a timer on edodge? Maybe allow it to go off once per 30 seconds or 45 seconds. I mean it make sense. STR builds are very much the stand and bang builds where as dex edodge are more movement thinking. Freight train opposed to the bouncy ball.

Otherwise I dig all the ideas. Mighty rage REALLY needed a rework. Love the regen idea as that gives you that I will stand nd trade blows with you feel that barbs should have not the AH RAGE RUNNING OUT LET ME RUN AWAY feeling you sometimes get in fights.

a shrouded figure
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:18 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by a shrouded figure » Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:31 pm

Do I need to spend a feat on 10% /and / 20% DI? Or would the intent be that you would buy one or the other?

Nevrus
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Nevrus » Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:06 am

For the fighter heavy armor feat, the intention seems to be the first gives 10% and the second upgrades it to 20%, hence being IMPROVED Armor Mastery.
Ganus- Riding the Isle (Active)
Aura Bigstep - Got Out Ahead (Retired)
Egos Ironhide - Shelved
Consult a medical professional before believing anything Nevrus says.

Poolbrain
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:33 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Poolbrain » Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:40 am

For the mighty rage rework: I think it sounds cool. I think high AC barbs with DDR and regen is something to be mindful of though. You can even build dex barbs with decent damage through rage, so this -could- be indirectly a potential buff to that.

Regarding CC every 30 seconds, I think it could be interesting tying it to damage taken. CC removal on usage and then every 300, 400 or 500 hp lost? It would reduce the luck factor of how long you will be CCed and it would increase the benefits of going High Con barbs.

(Leave him! You'll just piss him off even more!)

With a certain amount of con you could reach strategic hp thresholds to lose debuffs and CC 1 or 2 times before dying.

a shrouded figure
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:18 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by a shrouded figure » Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:33 pm

I like the threshold idea- but the timed idea works nicely too in that casters could be more strategic (in both cases) with regards to /when/ they try and CC

McPunchins
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:55 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by McPunchins » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:07 am

Armor Mastery (Fighter 14, Con 15)
- Persistent effect
- While wearing heavy armor, a fighter gets an additional 10% to all DI.
Orog Fighter 14 Barbarian 16 would get insanely high DI and EDR making them next to impossible to deal with. This seems needed but it also needs to probably not stack with other DI in some cases.

Active

Grofbog -- Duergar Smith

Retired


Evelyn Windlily -- Hin Tinker
Lyri Rofik -- Paladin of Arvoreen
Sledge -- Thane of the Anvilsworn
Vespertine -- Mute Hin
Reivja -- Uthgardt Shaman

Discord: @McPunchins


Post Reply