New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

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garrbear758
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New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm

As I've said before, we have been planning out new feats to incentivize some of the weaker strength builds. The goal is to get them up to par (but not to exceed) the few str builds that are still relevant, allowing for more options in building characters. Most, but not all of these feats are geared towards improving survivability or giving you more options. Balance on these is definitely a big concern, and they will be sitting on PGCC for awhile before going live. I figured I'd go ahead and get the ball rolling on some feedback as we start coding them, which will save us time in the long run.

New feats (prereqs in parantheses) - all of these are selected as BONUS feats only (except second wind). They will not be automatically granted.

FIGHTER - UPDATED 03DEC2020

Second Wind (Granted at level 2)
- Standard action - 10 minute cooldown - self only
- Grants fighter level * con mod hp.
Example 1: 20 fighter with 14 base con - 20*8 = 160 hp
Example 2: 26 fighter with 16 base con - 26 * 9 = 234 hp
Example 3: 6 fighter dip with 14 base con - 6*8 = 48 hp

Epic Second Wind (Fighter 21, Str 21)
-Second wind also removes minor debuffs (as lesser restoration) +2 ab, +2 damage, and regen equal to constitution modifier for 1 turn

Armor Mastery (Fighter 12, Con 15)
- Persistent effect
- While wearing heavy armor, a fighter gets 10% physical DI.

Honed Edge (Fighter 14, Str 17)
- When not using a temporary essence or poison, your weapon gains +3 physical damage.

Sucker punch (Fighter 18, Str 17)
- Standard action - touch attack - 2 minute cooldown
- Does 5 * Fighter level damage
- Blinds for 1 rounds on a failed fortitude save
- DC = Fighter level + Con Mod

Action Surge (Fighter 20, Str 25)
- Instant Action
- Grants 1 APR for 1 turn. 5 Turn cooldown

Precision Strikes (Fighter 16, Str 17)
- Toggleable combat stance. There will be a 1 turn cooldown between toggling to prevent cheese such as using it for knockdown then turning it off to burst damage.
- +5 AB, -1 Critical multiplier

Cavalier will stack with fighter levels for the scaling of these abilities and for meeting the prereqs, but not for the passive fighter bonuses that currently exist.

RANGER: TBD. I have a rough plan, but I'd still love to see your ideas.

Barbarian / other changes:
1: Mighty rage rework:
- Duration increase remains
- Grants regen = 3 + con mod damage bonus (5 at 16 barb, 6 at 21, 7 at 23, etc.)
- The CC clearing effect repeats once per 30 seconds
- Prereq lowered to 19 con. Barb/wms are unlikely to reach 19 as its a stretch for their base stats along with being a feat tight build. Its also not the end of the world if they take it. Its a feat that benefits PCs in longer fights a lot more than burst builds.
2: Move EDR 1/2/3 to 19 con. - DONE


DISCLAIMER: All of these abilities are experimental and are subject to change or be cancelled at any time. Once coded, they will be sitting on PGCC for a long time. Do NOT start building a character around ideas that only exist on paper. You have been warned, and I will have no sympathy if changes to these currently theoretical feats "ruin your build."
Last edited by garrbear758 on Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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cantalyssa
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by cantalyssa » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:14 pm

Obvious question here before going and doing testing:

Why are all of these feats locked behind classes?

The objective is to buff STRENGTH, not classes that that can elect into using strength, correct?

If this isn't a comprehensive list and you're still looking to update the other strength classes, that's fine, but should probably be disclosed.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:17 pm

cantalyssa wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:14 pm
Obvious question here before going and doing testing:

Why are all of these feats locked behind classes?

The objective is to buff STRENGTH, not classes that that can elect into using strength, correct?

If this isn't a comprehensive list and you're still looking to update the other strength classes, that's fine, but should probably be disclosed.
Paladin, CoT, Bard, WM, and PDK don't need buffs. Blackguard is eventually getting its own spellbook. Buffing these classes will increase build variety without making the already pretty strong STR builds oppressive. We are also adding some more heavy armor options which will help STR builds across the board.
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Drowboy
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Drowboy » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:27 pm

Action surge is probably fine if it doesn't stack with haste, I'd think.

17 con on a ranger is uh, a choice, I guess. Not one I'd make, myself, although +6 Regen is pretty enticing. I like the fighter stuff, especially more stances and active abilities. Might look towards that sort of thing for rangers.

Maybe some kinda sick'em strike where the ranger bops a dude and it boosts their companion or something.
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cantalyssa
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by cantalyssa » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:30 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:17 pm


Paladin, CoT, Bard, WM, and PDK don't need buffs. Blackguard is eventually getting its own spellbook. Buffing these classes will increase build variety without making the already pretty strong STR builds oppressive. We are also adding some more heavy armor options which will help STR builds across the board.
Fair enough - although one could argue that Fighter is essentially a prerequisite for WM due to the feat requirements so giving it extra goodies like this is (usually) a buff to WM as well (Granted the additions are mostly for deep fighter here which makes it more enticing)

Any thoughts on the "non-meta" ways of building the classes, using the ranger as an example (which are usually dex based), perhaps some love to people that may enjoy the rare(ish) strength monk, and the mythical strength rogue? Or is this strictly looking into the "standard array" of beefstick builds?

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:35 pm

cantalyssa wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:30 pm
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:17 pm


Paladin, CoT, Bard, WM, and PDK don't need buffs. Blackguard is eventually getting its own spellbook. Buffing these classes will increase build variety without making the already pretty strong STR builds oppressive. We are also adding some more heavy armor options which will help STR builds across the board.
Fair enough - although one could argue that Fighter is essentially a prerequisite for WM due to the feat requirements so giving it extra goodies like this is (usually) a buff to WM as well.

Any thoughts on the "non-meta" ways of building the classes, using the ranger as an example (which are usually dex based), perhaps some love to people that may enjoy the rare(ish) strength monk, and the mythical strength rogue? Or is this strictly looking into the "standard array" of beefstick builds?
It's a buff to wm builds that have fallen behind like 20/7/3. It doesn't do anything to help barb wm, swash cot wm, bard wm, etc.

A good str monk frightens me and I really don't want to open up that can of worms of trying to balance it, especially after dealing with the naginata monk wm builds. I'd much rather do something like make a unarmed barbarian build viable. Str rogue I would be open to in the future, maybe even as a -path, but these are things I'd rather look at individually in the future, not lump in with these changes.
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cantalyssa
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by cantalyssa » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:37 pm

Thanks for narrowing the intention for me, I'll keep what you've said in mind!

Drowboy
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Drowboy » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:42 pm

Some stuff:

Brawler Training: barb, req 17 str. Gives the character improved unarmed strike and increases their unarmed damage by one dice size, growing every, eh, six or seven levels.

Also, make all the good barb stuff work with unarmed. Brawler gloves?

Warden's X, available as double axe or dire maul, ranger only, has some decent defensive stats like di or dr to make up for losing heavy armor or a shield, intended to be blade thirsted.

Falconer's Whistle: req x str or con, 14 Wis. Ranger calls down a falcon in target enemy that does x damage and inflicts that new magic bleed. Ranged touch?

Q: would the edr change effect Barb only? Seems like high con rangers with the new stuff might want to pick that up.
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:46 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:42 pm
Q: would the edr change effect Barb only? Seems like high con rangers with the new stuff might want to pick that up.
That's the intent. It makes much more feasible to fit EDR on any non-divine non-wm str build.
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Linlan
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Linlan » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:47 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
Please feel free to throw some ideas around for some cooler options for STRangers.
I have no idea if this is just a ridiculous idea, but it could be fun (and thematic?)
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Nevrus » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:16 pm

I'm going to do some Public Math on mighty rage with my current barbarian (Who is not high enough level to pick this stuff up yet but I can maf)

Build: 24 Barbarian/6 Fighter
Con: 21 (Terrifying Rage), effective con mod: 11, 708 HP

Base Rage Duration: 16-22 Rounds (3 + Con + 2d4)
HP gained from raging: 342
Rage every ~3 minutes, HP per Minute: ~114

Mighty Rage Duration: 26-32 Rounds (3 + Con + 10 + 2d4)
HP gained from Raging: 342
7 Regen for 3 minutes = 210
Total HP Gain = 652
Rage every ~4 minutes, HP per minute: ~163

Math checks out.

The EDR changes won't affect heavy Barbarian builds much because they'll still want 21 con for Terrifying Rage anyway.
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:21 pm

Terrifying rage has no con requirement.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Ordo.Lupus » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:21 pm

At lvl 21 the ranger companion already has +7 AB, +7 damage, +7/7 damage reduction + some AC from GMF. Which is a pretty nice deal. My dwarven stranger 21/fighter 6/rogue 3 build isn't optimized at all. Yet with ranger runic hide armour and greensteel axe + blade thirst, my direwolf companion still has higher AC than my dwarf. And probably AB too. Plus the dmg reduc.

The blade thirst vamp regen thingy only makes sense if you're able to hit the target. Otherwise you're pretty screwed since you probably don't have top tier AC. As a STRanger I might do +5 dmg more than my dex counterpart but he probably has 5 AC more than me. Even though our AB might be the same. And taking FE/SE, BoE, crit chance, essence into account, then +5 dmg isn't that much.

The +2 AB on great weapons is pretty nice. Especially at lower levels. And since dualwielding 'small' weapons is at -2/-2, then to some degree it almost makes better sense to use great weapon (+2) + E/IE (-5/10) compared to dualwield (-2) + DWW (+1/2/3/4). Higher chance of hitting the enemy and higher damage, but you "lose" 2 APR. You still get 4 APR at +2 AB which I find far better than 6 APR at -2 AB.

Something I've thought about is why should FE/SE give damage against a specific type of creature. Why shouldn't it give AB/AC instead? You're supposed to have studied the creature extensively and know it's weak spots which in my mind is 'how to hit it succesfully' or 'how not to get hit' and not 'how to hurt it more'.
If you've ever trained in martial arts you'll be become familiar with your partners and how they move, how they strike, how they defend. What works well against them specifically and what not to do.
This reflects how AB and AC actually works in a fight/sparring/match. Not how you best deal some damage to them.
It could be nice to have a feat that allows you to get +X AB on your FE/SE, and perhaps another feat giving +X AC. It's just as situational as the normal FE/SE mechanic and not generic like the DDW +X AC is. Perhaps have the +AB on STR req and +AC on CON req.
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:24 pm

Its a lot to think about really. Not just how strong these abilities are but how they mix up together, several on the same build. The list looks good to me in general and the requirements are well thought.

Few things that come up to mind so far...

Action Surge would be more interesting and realistic feeling if it was an instant action, duration is 1 round and cooldown is... I dunno, 30 seconds or 1 minute at most. I dont think I would invest an epic feat on this if it does not stack with haste, either way.

Sucker Punch basically reveals your character's fighter lvl and also flat values are no fun. I suggest 1d8 instead. I sense there's more to this feat. Maybe the blindness could be replaced with stun at a certain fighter lvl, or extended duration to 2 rounds.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Nevrus » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:28 pm

Further feedback:

Looking at the Precision Strikes proposal, I can see this being used to virtually guarantee that 20/7/3 WMs can get their big crits. Reducing APR doesn't matter when you only need two successful hits to gib most builds. That promotes alpha strikes and one-round encounters which is something we want to shy away from.

I'd say a better drawback IS the crit multiplier reduction- set the multiplier to 1. You can have reliable hits but not world-ending crits. This gives a hook into threatening high AC builds without allowing them to be popped like a balloon without much effort. This also puts fighters in a position to go to-to-toe with these high AC builds by competing on base damage between many hits of a haste + Action Surge wombo, but makes it a drawn-out slug match instead of "25% chance on hit: Instant death."
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Nevrus » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:29 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:21 pm
Terrifying rage has no con requirement.
...I somehow got it in my had that 21 con was needed to get both on my build, but it was just EDR.

Yes, this saves me a feat. Yes, yes.
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:35 pm

Nevrus wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:29 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:21 pm
Terrifying rage has no con requirement.
...I somehow got it in my had that 21 con was needed to get both on my build, but it was just EDR.

Yes, this saves me a feat. Yes, yes.
Pretty good for Orog divine dip barbarians.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Maquis Renegade » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:59 pm

As someone who's played eleven twenty five fighter builds, this post makes my poor fighty brain happy in a way it's never known. "Wait, so I can be good at something OTHER than shotgun PVP?" Please and thank you to all dem fighter changes. None of them seem unbalanced but I might be slightly biased in this.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:08 pm

Nevrus wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:28 pm
Further feedback:

Looking at the Precision Strikes proposal, I can see this being used to virtually guarantee that 20/7/3 WMs can get their big crits. Reducing APR doesn't matter when you only need two successful hits to gib most builds. That promotes alpha strikes and one-round encounters which is something we want to shy away from.

I'd say a better drawback IS the crit multiplier reduction- set the multiplier to 1. You can have reliable hits but not world-ending crits. This gives a hook into threatening high AC builds without allowing them to be popped like a balloon without much effort. This also puts fighters in a position to go to-to-toe with these high AC builds by competing on base damage between many hits of a haste + Action Surge wombo, but makes it a drawn-out slug match instead of "25% chance on hit: Instant death."
I agree with that. I'm definitely leaning more towards -1 or -2 crit multiplier.
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Wethrinea » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:14 pm

The proposed ranger feats are interesting, and especially the Dual Wield Mastery feat goes a long way to compensate the dual wielding str ranger for laggging in AC. A question though, will it also apply to double weapons?

The regen feats also look enticing, but I doubt many, if any, str rangers will have that amount of con, seeing as they need str for attacks, wisdom for spells and int for skill points and expertise.

Blood lust looks thematically cool, but as it was pointed out it hinges on actually hitting something. That it is also a 50% chance reduces it's value further.

I feel that if one are to improve str rangers, they need feats that either double down on superiour AB and/or damage output, or something that enables higher AC or saves, in which they are usually sorely lacking as well. Having only fortitude as a high save, and usually mediocre con and low dex, they saves in the end are often in the bottom range of builds.
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:15 pm

or perhaps damage penalty, like an opposite power attack mode.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:19 pm

I agree with y'all on the problems with STRanger, but there's also a concern with too heavily buffing 27ranger 3 pally/bg.
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:25 pm

i really like the lowered EDR requirement idea. I mean yeah a dwarf dex rogue can probably pull it off, but that wont be divine dipping and its still a considerably feat tax mechanically and rp wise a durable dwarf rogue makes sense (not to mention a dex dwarf isnt benefiting as much from dwarven rune axe). This also may open up some options for gnomes.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Wethrinea » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:27 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:19 pm
I agree with y'all on the problems with STRanger, but there's also a concern with too heavily buffing 27ranger 3 pally/bg.
I suppose making dipping weaker by tying bonus to class level, or not make bonuses from feats proposed here stack with div might/shield is not feasible?
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Nevrus » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:48 pm

Honed Edge (Fighter 18, Str 17)
- When not using a temporary essence or poison, your weapon gains +3 physical damage.
My first reaction to this is: A feat that's worse than consumables seems like a bad investment when you can buy more damage.

My second reaction to this is: Oh, this lets you even further exceed DR to put out serious damage, especially against stoneskin (Until you have +5 to beat it) or EDR (Forever).

Yes. Carry on. They can't buy immunity to being hit.
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