New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

[Tsunami]

I would like to simply compare the Temp HP of the planned changes here compared to the new Earthkin Defender.

Fighter:
Second Wind (Fighter 2, granted for free)
- Standard action - 10 minute cooldown - self only
- Grants fighter level * con mod hp.
Consider 30 Con (10modifier) - 20 Fighter gives 200hp for a single feat granted for free. (No feat spent)


Earthkin Defender:
Iron Stance: Temporary health equal to quadruple the Earthkin Defender's class level. Consider 20 Earthkin Defender (Max)
- This is 80 HP
Aegis: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. The Earthkin Defender and their allies gain temporary health equal to sextuple the Earthkin Defender’s total class level. - Consider 20 Earthkin Defender
- This is 120hp. (4Min CD)

New Earthkin Defend spends a Class Feat and an Epic Class Feat to equal a freebie for the new fighter with equal levels? Even though Earthkin defender is meant to specialising in defence? - Either the suggested fighter numbers suggested is too strong or the numbers or the Earthkin Defender numbers are too low in my view. Of course I appreciate that cooldowns are different, however we can safely assume fights are often decided pretty quick and not drawn out over the space of 10 minutes.

I appreciate such cannot always be taken like for like as it also depends on the other synergies of the class, however this was without mentioning the 20% DI or Con Modifier Regen options of the fighter. I also appreciate that 20 base con is a lot, I am comparing what a Tank focused character may look at an not the stats a current stereotypical fighter will go.

I do not wish this to seem like a negative post, I think STR builds need some love - But I feel the above highlights that these are very large buffs, that make out-shadow the new 'defence focused' rework of EDK.

Suggestions:
Some of these more defensive feats should be given/offered to the new Earthkin Defender?
Earthkin Defender numbers need upping slightly? (Balancing to be considered on case by case basis)
These numbers need dropping slightly?

[garrbear758]

and their allies

This is the difference.

[Tsunami]

and their allies

This is the difference.

Thanks Garrbear for your reply - I do not disagree, that is indeed a difference, but I still feel that planned Fighter changes overshadows the Defender in defence, which feels counter intuitive.

You are posting these suggestions in the feedback forum, I assume for others views and opinions aka feedback. As such I took the time to provide my another viewpoint, if you choose to consider it or not is up to you !

[Halibutthead]

Man, reading this thread has taught me that I'm doing something wrong with my rogue. I can barely manage 60ac with expertise, but apparently, 73ac before expertise is the norm.

But on topic, i think second wind should be a free action like BS, to make it different from just chugging a potion (minus the aoo). Though kicking it up to, say, fighter level 10 might keep dips from getting a few emergency HP in a fight (not that i really think it would be a problem)

[Drowboy]

Having one of the str-req ranger feats give them dispel resistance like paladins get might be nice.

(Love to see them get free Wis, too, come to think of it)

[Sigmar Revenge]

Tbh ive spent quite some time on overthinking possible changes coming with new Fighter feats and want to share more thoughts:
-Fighters are one of best classes already
-main issue in dex meta are Monk dips and Div dips, they need attention
-buffing Fighter wont fix this issue, it just makes things worse as there are many non-fighter str melee builds..
-we dont need Fighter to have Warlock DI but also with good AC
-looking again at numbers provided makes me think Fighter isnt Barbarian to get Temp HP or +1 APR(thund rage), also theres a reason why Barb gets DI+Temp HP (2handed and lack of AC in most cases)
-if Fighter needs something, thats some really cosmetical/flavour feats and maybe something nice with MINIMUM 26 lvls of investment to make pure Fighter more viable

[a shrouded figure]

So pure fighter gets...

9 AC (helm shield armor +3), I’d consider this more of a net 3-6 depending on your multi class build. Honestly a fully geared fighter gets some silly AC.

As an extreme- a pure 30 orog fighter would be....

55AC just walking around, 74 AC with full buffs in IE. Not shabby.

35% DI (5% + 10% gear + 20% feats)

9/- DR because you’ve got feats to spare

51 AB (53 w/heavy greatsword)

+7 AB weapon which means even a prismatic dragon’s DR is pierced- nice.

Damage doesn’t reach weapon master, but you’re likely higher AB (who makes +4 WM’s, let’s be honest, and you have +2-3 AB from fighter anyway so it’s going to be close). I’m still showing 58.5 base with a greatsword averaging 77 per swing.

Sure the game play may be a little boring- but that’s a pretty killer paper doll.

[Archnon]

Tbh ive spent quite some time on overthinking possible changes coming with new Fighter feats and want to share more thoughts:
-Fighters are one of best classes already
-main issue in dex meta are Monk dips and Div dips, they need attention
-buffing Fighter wont fix this issue, it just makes things worse as there are many non-fighter str melee builds..
-we dont need Fighter to have Warlock DI but also with good AC
-looking again at numbers provided makes me think Fighter isnt Barbarian to get Temp HP or +1 APR(thund rage), also theres a reason why Barb gets DI+Temp HP (2handed and lack of AC in most cases)
-if Fighter needs something, thats some really cosmetical/flavour feats and maybe something nice with MINIMUM 26 lvls of investment to make pure Fighter more viable

While we are past the tl;dr point on this thread, I want to agree with you. Juicing strength fighter up more is going to turn it into the new monk where they get everything for free with very little cost. If you want to add some STR/Con feats, they should be general feats that any class can take. If you are worried this is going to buff div/monk dips too much, then you need to treat the problem, not the symptoms.

[Drowboy]

Div and monk dips are a symptom of not having to consider 3 rogue or bard for UMD anymore, though, and we know that's not getting cured.

[Ork]

Div and monk dips are a symptom of not having to consider 3 rogue or bard for UMD anymore, though, and we know that's not getting cured.

Preach.

[garrbear758]

Div and monk dips are a symptom of not having to consider 3 rogue or bard for UMD anymore, though, and we know that's not getting cured.

Preach.

We are fully aware of the cause. This will not be changing, so please work with us and provide constructive feedback to help with our work towards fixing balance.

[Ork]

Fair enough. One of the frustrations with the feats to solve STR is that there's little to no mitigating effort for the early game. Let's compare some AC values for identical builds (4 rogue/16BG/10PDK). I've played both variations to epic, and I will always play the DEX version of this build solely for survivability. An important thing to note: this build is extremely feat-starved and will never be able to sacrifice a feat for the new ones listed in this thread. I'm not included haste or divine shield since both can access those buffs.

DEX AC
L3 - 34 (10 + 9 DEX + 1 Cloth Armor + 4 TShield + 3 Bark + 4 Deflect (shieldpot) + 1 Boots + 1 MA +1 Tumble)
L4 - 36 (10 + 11 DEX + 1 Cloth Armor + 4 TShield + 3 Bark + 4 Deflect (shieldpot) + 1 Boots + 1 MA +1 Tumble)
L12 - 39 (10 + 12 DEX + 2 Cloth Armor + 5 TShield + 3 Bark + 4 Deflect (shieldpot) + 1 Boots + 1 MA +1 Tumble)
L20 - 41 (10 + 13 DEX + 3 Cloth Armor + 5 TShield + 3 Bark + 4 Deflect (shieldpot) + 1 Boots + 1 MA +1 Tumble)

STR AC
L3 - 34 (10 + 1 DEX + 9 FP + 4 TShield + 3 Bark + 4 Deflect + 1 Boots + 1 MA +1 Tumble)
L4 - 34 (10 + 1 DEX + 9 FP + 4 TShield + 3 Bark + 4 Deflect + 1 Boots + 1 MA +1 Tumble)
L12 - 36 (10 + 1 DEX + 10 FP + 5 TShield + 3 Bark + 4 Deflect + 1 Boots + 1 MA +1 Tumble)
L20 - 36 (10 + 1 DEX + 10 FP + 5 TShield + 3 Bark + 4 Deflect + 1 Boots + 1 MA +1 Tumble)

You'll notice that AC for STR stagnates HARD. While dex can invest in their base stat to consistently increase AC & their +3 armor is significantly cheaper, STR is left back in the stone-ages of AC in just equipment alone. Adamantine is such a terrible, terrible tax for STR builds. This AC discrepancy is only 5 at L20, but balloons to greater values in epic. DEX can consistently increase its AC by 1 every 8 levels, STR cannot.

Suggestion: Increase FP armor enchantment & reduce the addy tax. This can be implemented now alone with items to bring up AC values for STR. While this helps DIV STR builds, DIV STR needs help as well to bridge the gap between DEX DIV. Worried that improving STR will remove DEX DIV? DEX DIV gets flawless reflex saves & haste-on-cooldown and still better AC than a STR that receives +4 AC on full plate.

New Armor Ideas for Full Plate alone:

Bronze 0 ENCH
Iron 1 ENCH
Steel 2 ENCH
Titanium 3 ENCH
Mithril 4 ENCH
Adamantine 5 ENCH

Change towershields to requiring a minimum STR, and provide the same progression.

[redhawx]

Damage soaking comparision

I compared dmg-soaking between the new earthkin defender (suggested changes) and the new STR fighter
(suggested feats).

Conclussion:
Already at 50 dmg hits the fighter is better off and this only esclates to advantage of the fighter the more dmg you recieve.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fighter, any variant with 5% racial DR. (Fighter atleast, 21 levels in fighter).
Total: 35% DI (Assuming adamantine and no sheninigan gear like runewalls etc)
9 -DR

50 DMG
23.5 DMG left after soak.
26.5 HP soaked.

100 DMG
56 DMG left after soak.
44 HP soaked.

200 DMG
121 DMG left after soak.
79 HP soaked.

300 DMG
186 DMG left after soak.
114 HP soaked.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earthkin Defender (16 levels). A side note is that even a pure Earthkin Defender only has 2 more DR then this and still falls behind as early.
10% DI (Assuming adamantine and no sheninigan gear like runewalls etc).

19 DR

50 DMG
26 DMG left after soak.
24 HP soaked.

100 DMG
71 DMG left after soak
29 DMG soaked.

200 DMG

161 DMG left after soak
39 DMG soaked

300 DMG
251 DMG left after soak.
49 DMG soaked.

[Nevrus]

Its feasible to go fighter 14 and ekd 16, picking up armor mastery. This nets 20% DI and makes the comparisons better.

[redhawx]

Its feasible to go fighter 14 and ekd 16, picking up armor mastery. This nets 20% DI and makes the comparisons better.

For cost of locking yourself away from both thumble, umd, potential divine dips or whatever else you will soak marginally better at non-crits but the moment it enter crit-ranges of damage you are again worse off.
Edit: The dmg immunity feat from fighter has to be taken on epic levels. Which is a annoying tax. Unless all 14 fighter level is pree epic
at which point you would loose one epic feat from level 12.

16 dwd/14 fighter picking up armor mastery 1.

50 DMG.
21 dmg left after soak.
29 dmg soaked.

100 DMG.
61 DMG after soak
39 DMG soaked.

[a shrouded figure]

Also I’d comment that if you’re going to compare two /classes/ they should be the same race.

[garrbear758]

Ignoring the fact that we're assuming the fighter is an orog or gnoll and the dorf defender won't be using a runewall, It should also be noted that most builds are averaging 20-50 damage per hit not 50-300.

Fighter, any variant with 5% racial DR. (Fighter atleast, 21 levels in fighter).
Total: 35% DI (Assuming adamantine and no sheninigan gear like runewalls etc)
9 -DR

20 DMG
4 DMG left after soak.

30 DMG
10.5 DMG left after soak.

40 DMG
17 DMG left after soak.

50 DMG
23.5 DMG left after soak.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earthkin Defender (16 levels). A side note is that even a pure Earthkin Defender only has 2 more DR then this and still falls behind as early.
10% DI (Assuming adamantine and no sheninigan gear like runewalls etc).
19- DR

20 DMG
0 DMG left after soak. (technically -1)

30 DMG
8 DMG left after soak.

40 DMG
17 DMG left after soak.

50 DMG
26 DMG left after soak.


Also, assuming you go 10 fighter in epics and completely skip a tumble dip, you have 9 feats. After grabbing the essentials, EDR 3, and epic armor mastery, you still only have one epic feat left to go towards any other fighter bonus feats you want.
21: EWF
22F: EWS
24: EDR 1
24F: Prowess
26F: Armor Skin
27: EDR 2
28F: Epic Armor Mastery (EAM)
30: EDR 3
30F: Bonus Fighter Feat
Assuming a more realistic 7 fighter with the obligatory 3 level tumble dip, you're looking at:
21: EWF
22F: EWS
24: EDR 1
24F: EAM
26F EDR 2
27: EDR 3
30: Epic Prowess

Conversely: Ekd epic feats assuming 16 levels, a fighter bonus feat for ews, and a tumble dip, along with ekd getting free armor skin:
21: EWF
23: Bonus Ekd Feat
24: EDR 1
26: Bonus Ekd Feat
27: EDR 2
30: EDR 3
30F: EWS

Even if one of those bonus ekd feats were replaced by epic prowess, you'd still be coming out with the same amount of free epic bonus feats as a pure fighter, with better damage mitigation at more realistic numbers

[Nevrus]

Big damage like that mostly comes from two sources- sneak attack and weapon master crits.

Dwarven Defenders are hard to sneak attack, meaning at most they'll only have to put up with one round of it.

In exchange they're nearly immune to the other damage coming out of the attacker because of all the DR.

Weapon Masters being able to overwhelm them with sheer damage? Sure. They give up defensive advantages for that, so that's their strong suit.

Pure fighters being able to match WMs because of their big DR adds more avenues of counterplay for various classes.

[redhawx]

Ignoring the fact that we're assuming the fighter is an orog or gnoll and the dorf defender won't be using a runewall, It should also be noted that most builds are averaging 20-50 damage per hit not 50-300.

I used the half-orc, orog, gnoll, minatour, firbolg as a comparision as they are the "strongest". I thought it better to compare towards builds that would fully utilize a feature.

A runewall is a item that is locked behind 25 UMD it can be gained without to much of a hazzle to any race. It give you 5% more slashing and bludgeoning resistance at cost of -5 % dmg immunity to piercing. You also loose 2 AC compared to the Adamantine Towershield. That's still a considerable tradeoff. If you meet a enemy using a piercing weapon you even take more dmg carrying one then a ordinary adamantine shield.

It is the critical hits where the difference really starts to become huge yes. But even before crit-levels of damage the differences
is extremely slim in how much damage you take. 4 dmg compared to 0. Or 10.5 compared to 8. This is the kind of damage that you will have no problem to sustain yourself from through healing potions/kits. As opposed to huge burst damage from critical hits.


Regarding feats.
The Earthkin defender Bonus feats is locked to the new class features and cannot be spent on other things.

21,24,27,30
EDK is 3 of those.
Free armorskin.
Leaving one choice, problaby Epic Wep Focus.
Then fighter levels can give for instance Epic Wep Spec.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Ork's idea of Tower Shields requiring a minimum STR is a really cool idea. It was this way in 3.5e, if we're getting puritan about it. It arguably doesn't nerf any DEX builds, but it could create space where Tower Shields can do interesting things / have interesting abilities.

Also, the call for the bronze-iron-steel-mithril-adamantium armour progression more meaningful has been an echo on this forum for like ever at this point.

Bronze/iron is basically redundant.
Steel armour doesn't get quite as overlooked as steel weapons, because of Arelith's catapulting progression through level 1-10s, but it's close.
Adamantium armour is not worth the ingots when compared to securing your masterly damask weaponry. +2 AC and +1 uni saves vs. +3 AC is such an awful thing that we have.

[Halibutthead]

Hey, what do you guys think of a feat that cancels the first crit (or two?) in a round? Give it some strength flavor, or require heavy armor, and have it essentially be a str edodge.

[Sombricimos]

Hey, what do you guys think of a feat that cancels the first crit (or two?) in a round? Give it some strength flavor, or require heavy armor, and have it essentially be a str edodge.

That's too strong in my opinion.
However an active feat with CD (5 minutes?) that lasts for ... IDK, 1 to 2 rounds (Random number that does not sounds that OP) and gives sneaks/death attack/crit immunity might be interesting.

[KeldonDonovans]

I saw this in the suggestion forums, but figured I'd point it out here too.

Monkey Grip. It allows a character to dual wield weapons that are considered "Large". So a human could dual wield greatswords.

I might suggest that some weapons be left out as "not one-handable" due to the nature of their design (RP reason) and also balance (Here's looking at you, Scythe, as nobody wants a dual-wielding scythe WM coming their way.)

[Svrtr]

Hey, what do you guys think of a feat that cancels the first crit (or two?) in a round? Give it some strength flavor, or require heavy armor, and have it essentially be a str edodge.

That's too strong in my opinion.
However an active feat with CD (5 minutes?) that lasts for ... IDK, 1 to 2 rounds (Random number that does not sounds that OP) and gives sneaks/death attack/crit immunity might be interesting.

Not sure I am in favor of it myself given how much CON could be stacked, but we could look at it another way.

If this theoretical build prevents a crit once per round, that is most likely to be on the first attack given the necessity of confirming the crit. Presumably, however, the attack still goes through regardless. So it IS strong given that it negates the attack most likely to crit, but it is strictly a worse version of edodge since edodge negates the first successful attack per round, and this theoretical feat presumably just negates the crit but not the attack.

Not sure I am in favor of it, but strictly speaking it is a worse version of e-dodge.

[Drowboy]

I saw this in the suggestion forums, but figured I'd point it out here too.

Monkey Grip. It allows a character to dual wield weapons that are considered "Large". So a human could dual wield greatswords.

I might suggest that some weapons be left out as "not one-handable" due to the nature of their design (RP reason) and also balance (Here's looking at you, Scythe, as nobody wants a dual-wielding scythe WM coming their way.)

that's not what monkey grip does
Monkey grip lets you use weapons a size category larger than you should.

For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon.