New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

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BobTheSkull
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by BobTheSkull » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:50 pm

Going through each to consider:
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
FIGHTER

Second Wind (Fighter 2, granted for free)
- Standard action - 10 minute cooldown - self only
- Grants fighter level * con mod hp.
Example 1: 20 fighter with 14 base con - 20*8 = 160 hp
Example 2: 26 fighter with 16 base con - 26 * 9 = 234 hp
Example 3: 6 fighter dip with 14 base con - 6 * 8 = 48 hp

Epic Second Wind (Fighter 21, Str 21)
-Second wind also removes minor debuffs (as lesser restoration) and grants +2 ab, +2 damage, and regen equal to constitution modifier for 1 turn
1) Echoing other positions, this should be a free action. Comparing it to barbarian rage.

2) Does this over heal? Raise a HP cap? Only heal up to cap? What happens to unused HP after 1 Round? This should either be Temp HP or only fill to cap. The first operates just like Barbarian rage and is a great initiation tool. The Second is more to the namesake of "second wind" and would be used as a stim heal mid combat but requires much more tactical application as it would not over heal if the heal is greater than missing HP.
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
Armor Mastery (Fighter 14, Con 15)
- Persistent effect
- While wearing heavy armor, a fighter gets an additional 10% to all DI.

Epic Armor Mastery (Fighter 21, Con 17)
-The bonus from armor mastery is raised to 20%
DI is good, though a very slippery slope balance mechanic. I appreciate that it is all DI and not just physical as those damned dexers get so much bonus damage from other sources these days. My only question is since this is catered against the fighter/WM, where is the damage from pure fighter coming from? Are we just making another PM defensive build with a wet noodle that can be ignored in PvP?
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
Honed Edge (Fighter 18, Str 17)
- When not using a temporary essence or poison, your weapon gains +3 physical damage.
sweet.
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
Sucker punch (Fighter 20, Str 17)
- Standard action - touch attack - 2 minute cooldown
- Does 5 * Fighter level damage
- Blinds for 1 round on a failed fortitude save
- DC = Fighter level + Con Mod
I don't like that his feat, despite being really cool, doesn't actually address the nimble elephant in the room: Dexers. Touch Attack wont come close to touching dex characters, so this is a new feat to buff strength builds that is solely useful in hurting strength builds. Something like this that is a discipline check instead of a touch attack would bring discipline back and benefit strength while hurting dex? Or something that is a attack but presumes flat foot?

The special effect of Blinds is interesting, though a mixed bag for me. I'd prefer to see a slow mechanic as stickiness is hard in pvp already for melee.

Then we have the DC issue, DC abilities are a fishing for 1s in todays meta, maybe 5s as it isn't a spell. But on a 2 min CD, that is a one in 20 or at best a 1 in 4 pvp fights that it ever triggers. So it is more cute than meaningful.
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
Action Surge (Fighter 20, Str 17)
- Standard action - 5 minute cooldown
- Fighter gains 1 APR for 1 turn
I'll be honest, blinding speed is an issue on balance in Arelith. Why not increase str req and then give it the same properties as Blinding speed currently? Helps AC, it helps stickiness in melee, it gives the 1 APR and stops making the already slower fighter stop and chug haste pots every time a dexer has a free action BS CD on
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
Precision Strikes (Fighter 16, Str 17)
- Toggleable combat stance similar to power attack / expertise
- 2 less APR, raises AB by 5.
EDIT: Another option here would be to lower crit multiplier by 1, which is something that is now possible.

Cavalier levels will stack with fighter levels for the scaling of these abilities, but not for meeting the prereqs.
This is harmful to Str builds. In a world where your rogue build has 73 AC pre expertise + e-edodge, even with +5 AB the str build is fishing for 20s to hit. With this you have reduced that build from 5 APR to only 3 chances at 20s AND you have taken away -10 AC from the str build leaving the strengther with at best 55ac, meaning the dexer needs to roll a 12 to hit him with 7-10 APR and the str needs to roll a 20 to hit the dexer with only 2-3 APR.
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
Blood Lust (Ranger 15, Str 15)
A ranger's equipped weapon(s) gain +5 vampiric regen. This is the vanilla vampiric regen which has a 50% chance of applying and stacks with blade thirst.

Improved Blood Lust (Ranger 21, Str 23)
The bonus from Blood Lust is increased to +10.
Vamp regen is nice in theory. But in the fishing for 20s pvp environment against all dex builds this will fall flat. Made worse by e-dodge. You need to be able to hit to be able to heal, and the AC disparity is the issue. Made worse still as the vanilla version only triggers 50% of the time so it isn't a 1 in 20 chance to get +10 HP it is 1 in 40 chance to get +10 HP.

I like it, and it is very thematically in line with Ranger, it just doesn't do anything to address the dex problem.
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
Dual wield mastery (Ranger 20, Str 17)
-A ranger with this feat gains +2 ab while dual wielding.
is this a hard +2ab or a soft? Does it count towards DR and does it diminish the usefulness of True Strike Potions? (the DR doesn't really matter as you'd have bladethirst anyways, but still worth knowing)
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
Call of the Wild (Ranger 15, Con 15) Note: This is feasible for archers, but not for rangers with divine or monk dips.
- A ranger with this feat gains 3 regeneration

Improved Call of the wild (Ranger 21, Con 17)
- The bonus from Call of the Wild is increased to 6.
This is fantastic. But it won't change the outcome in a dual with a dexer, the AC disparities are simply too great. Though this combined with some form of effective AC balancing would be nice.

I might suggest that you add a DI component to this, perhaps 15/30% but only in natural areas. Playing on the ranger theme and it scripts the same as HIPS.
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
Barbarian / other changes:
1: Mighty rage rework:
- Duration increase remains
- Grants regen = 3 + con mod damage bonus (5 at 16 barb, 6 at 21, 7 at 23, etc.)
- The CC clearing effect repeats once per 30 seconds
- Prereq lowered to 19 con. Barb/wms are unlikely to reach 19 as its a stretch for their base stats along with being a feat tight build. Its also not the end of the world if they take it. Its a feat that benefits PCs in longer fights a lot more than burst builds.
unless (and even then it is a big maybe) that you allowed all rage feats to activate and stack when rage is entered, I do not see this being worth taking. The Barbarian AC is simply too low and they are still in a fishing for 20s battle against dexers. Every barbarian encounter is an HP pool that leaks like a sieve. I could see this regen giving barbs 1, maybe 2 more rounds of life. But if they skipped it and went WM instead they would have a chance of wining and living the engagement. Basically the barb is trading a 30% increase in crit damage for 6 HP a turn. To make that worse, they are trading this feat instead of 1 APR, or a fear.
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm
2: Move EDR 1/2/3 to 19 con.
Divine dips and monks won't have the stats to reach this. Dex builds generally won't have the feats. It's another option which is reasonable for non-divine str builds.
*shrugs* Warlocks and Druids rejoice! Dex builds are not particularly starved at epic levels for feats, e-dodge, but particularly with the change to Parry, there are fewer dual wielding dexers so feat economy increased.

I think i'd rather see EDR stay at 21 con and then give it a buff based on armor type or class. Such as +1 DR per feat per 10 fighter/barb/ranger levels so it is 3/6/9 for warlocks and druids but it could be 6/12/18 for 30 fighter/barb/ranger

alternatively

Give EDR a stacking 1/2/3 elemental resist added to it with 10/20/30 fighter/barb/ranger levels, so with 5/fire resist on gear + EDR3 a fighter has 8/ resist to counter the imbues form dex SS or archer arrows.

Notable changes to help balance:

Dex Class balance:

Fix the god damn rogue.

Lightly armored bonus? WHY!? Rogue has highest AC in the game able to walk out with 73ac pre expertise. The last thing they need is an innate ability that gives them access to more AC (and as long as we are discussing balances, this is innate verse all the above that is a feat cost for str builds).

Blinding speed (not rogue specific) but rogue gets CD reduction on it and the arelith customization makes it invaluably strong.

Rogue HP - we gave them the highest AC and then gave them a free 60 HP for fun.

Rogue weapon AB - because we want to make sure DR doesn't matter and that their 3/4 BAB is mitigated.

We built the rogue monstrosity. We should really fix it, instead of trying to fix everything else.

Div Dip:

Cap div might/shield at divine class level. If someone wants to invest 11 levels of BG for 11 divine shield AC, great, do it! but the sheer volume of divine dip builds right now show this is out of control. Mechanically this is great as AC is out of control. RP this is good as these are DIVINE abilities: you are so devote and wonderful that a god smiles down on you and shines their favor on you to cloak you in a divine shield. That is not something done for a 3 level tip of the hat that is a reward for dedication.

Monk:

Cap monk wis/AC to monk class level. No need to exclude druid, or div dips, or specific classes. Just make it a monk feature. People have wined and complained about Monk dip AC for 15 years. This fixes that (sorry healers, you have to go back to CHA sanc)

Gear:

Str builds are failing in the AC world, AC is an issue. we need to reduce AC on dex gear and boost ac on heavy armors. remove the high enhancement armor ac light armors.

Leather2/6 armor - ideal for the lightly armored rogue buff - yet another reason rouge dexers are broken
Rogue Leather: we are giving the highest AC class in the game +4 armor?
Armor of the wilds: yes, race restricted but we want to give rogues the option of +5 enhanced armor with moderate 35 UMD they are taking anyways for DMC?
Displacer Beast: again +4 armor for rogues.

Padded 1/8 armors
Armor of immolation +4 ac

Cloth:
there are four +3 AC shirts and one +4 AC shirt for our dexers

Full Plate:
+ 3 Addy. That is it.

There is not a single +4 AC heavy armor until you reach northman at 6/1 which is effectively only a +2 ac full plate from AC perspective.

Then it isn't again until +4 for elven chain or pally armor at 4/4 medium.

We have a huge AC disparity vastly favored towards dex and yet we give dexers (and rogues in particular) vastly higher AC armors. You want to balance out AC? We need to look at the gear that gives AC and the disparities there in.

Runes

We have drastically increased the gear strength on the server. Runic items, Runes that are addable, Runic Chests. The ability to get +4 stat on items favors dex and dex/wis or dex/div builds with large stat spreads. This is a "back in my day" moment, but 15 years ago you were lucky to get 2 stats and 2 skills on an item. and it was nearly impossible to +12 two stats. We always saw div dip or monk dip but it used to be only to those classes that favored CHA/Wis already. Now with stats being relatively cheap we see it on all classes.

We can't go back (any probably shouldn't) but if we have increased the over all magic level of the module, we need to consider those mono stat builds (str) that benefit less from those increases when we consider balance and add in more powerful magical items to balance them or they get left behind entirely.

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Baseili
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Baseili » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:18 pm

Second Wind (Fighter 2, granted for free)
- Standard action - 10 minute cooldown - self only
- Grants fighter level * con mod hp.
Example 1: 20 fighter with 14 base con - 20*8 = 160 hp
Example 2: 26 fighter with 16 base con - 26 * 9 = 234 hp
Example 3: 6 fighter dip with 14 base con - 6 * 8 = 48 hp

Epic Second Wind (Fighter 21, Str 21)
-Second wind also removes minor debuffs (as lesser restoration) and grants +2 ab, +2 damage, and regen equal to constitution modifier for 1 turn
These two are top notch, provides a tool to ease leveling and an epic feat worth its weight. Only suggestion I could make is possibly lowering its healing in exchange for a shorter cooldown, halfing both would make it more a decision rather than a panic button.
Armor Mastery (Fighter 14, Con 15)
- Persistent effect
- While wearing heavy armor, a fighter gets an additional 10% to all DI.

Epic Armor Mastery (Fighter 21, Con 17)
-The bonus from armor mastery is raised to 20%
Not worth two feats in my opinion, Armour Mastery could be baked in with armoured vigil for both heavy and medium armours. Keep the epic as a choice though.
Honed Edge (Fighter 18, Str 17)
- When not using a temporary essence or poison, your weapon gains +3 physical damage.
+5 would make it worthwhile, allowing choice between elemental or physical without replacing essences/poison.
Sucker punch (Fighter 20, Str 17)
- Standard action - touch attack - 2 minute cooldown
- Does 5 * Fighter level damage
- Blinds for 1 round on a failed fortitude save
- DC = Fighter level + Con Mod
Pretty decent, a little extra bonus if used while 1 handed (no shield, -twohand or dual wield) would be great. Could be added to rogue and swashbuckler as a fun optional feat.
Action Surge (Fighter 20, Str 17)
- Standard action - 5 minute cooldown
- Fighter gains 1 APR for 1 turn
Fighter haste without the AC or speed. Needs either damage reduction or Freedom.

Precision Strikes (Fighter 16, Str 17)
- Toggleable combat stance similar to power attack / expertise
- 2 less APR, raises AB by 5.
EDIT: Another option here would be to lower crit multiplier by 1, which is something that is now possible.
Definitely lower crit over APR, if you're fighting epic dodge you're basically making one attack at full AB.

[quoteBlood Lust (Ranger 15, Str 15)
A ranger's equipped weapon(s) gain +5 vampiric regen. This is the vanilla vampiric regen which has a 50% chance of applying and stacks with blade thirst.

Improved Blood Lust (Ranger 21, Str 23)
The bonus from Blood Lust is increased to +10.

Dual wield mastery (Ranger 20, Str 17)
-A ranger with this feat gains +2 ab while dual wielding.

Call of the Wild (Ranger 15, Con 15) Note: This is feasible for archers, but not for rangers with divine or monk dips.
- A ranger with this feat gains 3 regeneration

Improved Call of the wild (Ranger 21, Con 17)
- The bonus from Call of the Wild is increased to 6.[/quote]

Ranger is a tricky one, its a powerful class in certain combinations yet tapping into any of the bonus feats is removing a significant amount of power versus an enemy. At most they have two pre epic feats spare (if human), with that in mind I would suggest three choice feats that add the scaling bonus from, and applying only to, favoured enemies.
Hunter - Gains regen (increased for 1 and 2 handed (non two sided) weapon use)
Warden - Gains DR
Stalker - Gains AB /2 (21 ranger would get +2, level 27 +3)
Requires level 18 ranger, 21 strength.
Barbarian / other changes:
1: Mighty rage rework:
- Duration increase remains
- Grants regen = 3 + con mod damage bonus (5 at 16 barb, 6 at 21, 7 at 23, etc.)
- The CC clearing effect repeats once per 30 seconds
- Prereq lowered to 19 con. Barb/wms are unlikely to reach 19 as its a stretch for their base stats along with being a feat tight build. Its also not the end of the world if they take it. Its a feat that benefits PCs in longer fights a lot more than burst builds.
2: Move EDR 1/2/3 to 19 con.
The rage sound promising but lowering EDR to 19 con is going to buff warlocks and druids. I'd suggest adding on a >10 int qualifier if its dropped.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Wrips » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:09 pm

STR really needs some damage mitigation but EDR gives so little compared to what it requires to be selected, on top of the damage creep we've experienced recently.

I think the whole feat could benefit from a small rework, like adding 2 or 3% DI per EDR feat in addition to the 3 DR. Naturally, it would also benefit Warlocks and Druids but Warlock can be easily tweaked by nerfing the DI they receive while leveling while Druids could likely have their DR removed/reduced.

Or just make a special line of EDR feats only available to melee builds, with enhanced additions.
Last edited by Wrips on Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Nitro » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:22 pm

Image

In non-meme content:
+5 would make it worthwhile, allowing choice between elemental or physical without replacing essences/poison.
+3 is already allowing a choice, you get full guaranteed damage against prot essenced targets, +5 would make it a no-brainer, why would you not take something that is flat out better than what is currently available?

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Nevrus » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:42 pm

Wrips wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:09 pm
STR really some damage mitigation but EDR gives so little compared to what requires to be selected, on top of the damage creep we've experienced recently.

I think the whole feat could benefit from a small rework, like adding 2 or 3% DI per EDR feat in addition to the 3 DR. Naturally, it would also benefit Warlocks and Druids but Warlock can be easily tweaked by nerfing the DI they receive while leveling while Druids could likely have their DR removed/reduced.

Or just make a special line of EDR feats only available to melee builds, with enhanced additions.
I think this is a valid concern and is worth exploring to not accidentally buff already defensively strong builds.

I don't think DI% outside of 5 is possible, so, here's my take if we wanted to do this:

1. Leave normal EDR alone at requiring 21 Con and giving 3 per. Add new requirement to EDR I: Cannot have Epic Resilience I.
2. Add a new line of feats:

Epic Resilience I
Requires: 19 Con, 17 Str, 16 Levels of Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian, Epic Character, cannot have Epic Damage Reduction 1
The character gains +4 Damage Resistance.

Epic Resilience II
Requires: Epic Resilience I
The character gains +3 DR and 5% physical immunity.

Epic Resilience III
Requires: Epic Resilience II
The character gains +3 DR and 5% physical immunity.

This would net these dedicated melee builds +1 DR over the normal line (To an even +10 instead of weird +9) and 10% physical immunity at the cost of three feats. Fighters who take this and the armor mastery feats net +30% Physical Immunity and 10 DR at the cost of four of their epic feats being invested in this defense. Barbarians who invest wind up with a bit more tankiness. Non-warrior classes can still get their silly DR cheese as they always have for the same cost-to-benefit, which doesn't enable them shifting ability points around to enable deeper cheese in their builds. The str requirement also keeps it away from dex characters.

Sound fair?
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:32 pm

I saw a comment about sucker punch not touching dex touch acs. These seems odd to me as there are str builds capable of hitting high dex acs and touch ac is still lower than their total ac. Too be honest though, I'm more concerned about the balance of the other proposed features and what is "too much" or not.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by CorsicanDoge » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:40 pm

Tying these to fighter was probably a great idea and you still permitted multi-classing potential by not just making it "20+ fighter". My only other potential complaint would be "we don't have that many feats" but it's solved since it's just fighter buffs.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Nevrus » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:09 am

I don't have any experience with STRanger but I've been mulling those feats over.

The dual wield mastery which makes wielding light-tier weapons essentially free is pretty good. I'd almost want to egg it up to +3 so that it virtually eliminates the penalties on mediums and ekes out a total +1 on smalls, to enable a slight overall increase of AB to threaten the high-dex characters. The APR of dual wielding means it doesn't need to be much because they already have many-roll threat.

The more 'sustain' focused options are a bit less attractive.

Two feats for 6 regen is less output than 2 feats for 6 EDR because 6 EDR pays off on every hit whereas Regen is just once a round.

Two feats for 10 Vamp Regen is super nice for PVE but too unreliable in high-level PVP to be worth taking. As a balancing tool against EDodge it falls short.

I'd say combining the two and adding FE interactivity would create an attractive package:
Blood Thirst
Requires 15 Ranger, 17 Str, 15 Con
The ranger's weapon gains +5 Vampiric Regen. While in wilderness areas or upon dealing damage to a Favored Enemy, they gain +3 Regeneration for 1 turn.

Epic Blood Thirst
Requires 21 Ranger, 23 Str, Blood Thirst
The ranger's blood thirst improves. Their weapon now gains +10 Vampiric Regeneration. While in wilderness areas or upon dealing damage to a Favored Enemy, they gain +6 Regeneration for 1 turn.

Gives more room for favored enemies and encourages the ranger to hit them. Possibly make it so that Wilderness and FE damage Regen stacks so that in their element they can get +12 Regen? That would be a scary no AC dual wield man.
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by strong yeet » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:58 am

I feel like a lot of people in this thread are advocating for more DR, more DI, both physical and not-physical.

I also feel like to do this demonstrates a certain lack of experience where fighting heavy DR/DI builds is concerned -- it's not fun, it's excruciatingly boring, frustrating and feeds into the same issue of "tank builds are way too strong and virtually unkillable" that we're dealing with now, just with damage mitigation rather than damage avoidance. For the love of god, don't buff EDR. It's a huge investment because it pays huge dividends. It needs to remain a huge investment.

On the whole, I don't see this making a significant change to the "meta" so to speak beyond making already semi-viable builds like Brycer, or 25/5 fighter WM, up to or exceeding par. I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing, but I don't think it's going to make pure fighters or what have you into real competitors where mechanical power is concerned.

STR ranger is still probably going to suck with the exception of 21/4/5 ranger fighter WMs, who are already on the low end of okay. It won't change much aside making them a little more annoying to fight (anything with HIPS is already CBT to fight because it's the worst mechanic in NWN)

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Nevrus » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:48 am

To further continue my STRanger thoughts:

Doing some AB Maf on STRanger:

25 Base + 4 Feats + 5 Blade Thirst + 2 Bane + 14 Str (Generous) = 50 AB, when using light weapons with Dual Wield Mastery.

They're still left flailing against the 70 AC meta and without being able to get hits they'll probably lose trades.

Suggestion to fix this, inspired by Sucker Punch:
New Feat - Two Weapon Rend
Requires: Str 23, Ranger 21, Dual Wield Mastery
The ranger attacks viciously with both weapons. They make a single attack, with an additional +5 Attack Bonus if the target is a Favored or Studied Enemy. If successful they deal damage with both weapons, and the target must make a Fortitude save against a DC of Ranger Level + Con Mod or lose 1 AC per 5 Ranger levels for five rounds. Because it uses both weapons simultaneously, it cannot be prevented by Epic Dodge.
Two minute cooldown.

(Could adjust to 1 per 6 or 1 per 7 if we want to be a little kinder about it)
This gives STRangers a niche as can openers that formerly was only held by bards. It needs to actually hit, is single target, has a shorter duration, and has a cooldown, making bards still better at it in all regards. The fort save means that this won't be tearing apart beefy melees or divine savers, but it will add situational pressure against Dex-heavy targets. It's also a neato boss debuff in PvE if it works.

Never let me join the class development team. I will keep creating monstrosities like this.
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:48 am

strong yeet wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:58 am
I feel like a lot of people in this thread are advocating for more DR, more DI, both physical and not-physical.

I also feel like to do this demonstrates a certain lack of experience where fighting heavy DR/DI builds is concerned -- it's not fun, it's excruciatingly boring, frustrating and feeds into the same issue of "tank builds are way too strong and virtually unkillable" that we're dealing with now, just with damage mitigation rather than damage avoidance. For the love of god, don't buff EDR. It's a huge investment because it pays huge dividends. It needs to remain a huge investment.
Or we can choose a slightly different angle and say that dexers who choose defensive builds (ac over damage) have too many obtainable damage sources and they dont feel the lack of str enough so increasing DI/DR on none-dexers is a valid approach to address this. Another thing a lot of people say in different threads is that they dont like 10 seconds long fights in a shotgun meta either.
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preggy
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by preggy » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:13 am

Heya.

Been away for a while and just looking to clarify since its thrown about quite a bit.

What would be an example build of a dexer hitting 70 ac in the current meta? My build skills are perhaps a bit archeic in that respect.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Ordo.Lupus » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:33 am

The thing about rangers is to consider what role they should play. They are not warriors/soldiers (I avoid using the word fighter here), nor are they spellcasters (divine, arcane or primal). They aren't damage soaking tanks nor shadowy figures. To some degree their best comparison is the paladin since both of them mix fighter with divine spells. But the paladin is way better suited for direct conflict (heavy armour and combat buffs) which you would expect (hint: crusade). Strike with divine wrath and extreme prejudice!

The ranger is perhaps the opposite as they should be better suited to track, navigate, maneuver, scout. The FE feat is the heart and soul of the ranger class at which they should excel against specific foes. Excel is a subjective term because the interpretation is kind of up to the reader.

PvP can be fun for some. Though I don't care much of it. So when I look at rangers and their weakness then I'm mostly interested in making them very good against specific foes. Be it undead, outsiders, abberations. Or for those pvp inclined: elf, human, dwarf.
To some degree I don't want rangers to get generic buffs to dmg, ab or ac. I would much rather have them specific to FE and/or terrain.

To quote the arelith wiki on rangers
Roleplay Tips
Rangers are hunters with an affinity for the world around them. Two things should be noted to be true here: Hunters. And “Affinity for the world”.
Rangers should, given enough time and circumstances, be able to defeat any foe. They know the lands as if it was the back of their hand. They know where to places (big) deadly traps. Or how to starve trespasser. Or performing hit'n'run attacks to gradually weaken them. All this is supported (yet sometimes poorly) through nwn skills. But I have rarely if ever met a ranger that utilises this array of skill set.

Rangers now get HiPS and +20% (party) movement speed increase plus the map reveal. All in wilderness areas.
This caters to some of the above being possible.
Then they get +AC when dual wielding which only marginally offsets them slightly from single weapon + shields. And twohanded weapons get +2AB.
The suggested Dual Wield Mastery is welcome. However I would like to know what Arelith's vision of rangers is?
Nevrus wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:48 am
To further continue my STRanger thoughts:

Doing some AB Maf on STRanger:

25 Base + 4 Feats + 5 Blade Thirst + 2 Bane + 14 Str (Generous) = 50 AB, when using light weapons with Dual Wield Mastery.

They're still left flailing against the 70 AC meta and without being able to get hits they'll probably lose trades.
The +5 Blade Thirst assumes the ranger is lvl 26 and has had time to cast the spell before an encounter. If it's a sudden PvP then good luck. You could try to do a HiPS but I'm not sure this will save your skin.

One issue with using fighter or barb as a baseline for rangers is that rangers need to cast a few spells in order to shine. Fighters a pretty good baseline and barb just need to rage. Neither of those can be dispelled which rangers can be
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Jagel » Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:10 pm

Str ranger should probably have the role of single target (burst) dps with some survivability via self sustain and/or cc (slow, stun, immobilize, debuff or what have you)

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by jomonog » Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:21 pm

preggy wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:13 am
Heya.

Been away for a while and just looking to clarify since its thrown about quite a bit.

What would be an example build of a dexer hitting 70 ac in the current meta? My build skills are perhaps a bit archeic in that respect.
Im not sure what the mythical 70ac dex meta build is that everyone seems to be hating on. Unless people are quoting 70ac in IE i dont actually think there is a build considered A or B+ tier that gets those numbers.

As far as I know the only meta dex build with high ac and e-dodge is a divine rogue which probably gets high 60s ac without IE id imagine. Something like rogue 25 paladin/BG 5, rogue 19 fighter 6 pally/bg 5, or rogue 20 5SD 5divine.

Monk with e-dodge seems to be the other dex build people dislike but thats not really considered a good meta build afaik and it probably only gets at most high 50s or at most 60ish ac (thats either a pure monk, or 20 monk 10 fighter/cot mix).

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by a shrouded figure » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:35 pm

It’s relatively easy to hit 60 AC on a dex build while maintaining damage. I think /most/ of the 70AC meta comments are divine dips so it’s not a permanent 70 AC unless you’re in IE.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by BobTheSkull » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:02 pm

jomonog wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:21 pm
Im not sure what the mythical 70ac dex meta build is that everyone seems to be hating on. Unless people are quoting 70ac in IE i dont actually think there is a build considered A or B+ tier that gets those numbers.
Rogue20/BG5/SD/5 gets you fully buffed AC of 69 without IE it also has a taunt of a minimum of 42DC without gear to bring effective AC up to 75AC without IE and 85AC with IE active (no reason to activate IE on 90% of builds in module) Note 9 of this AC is coming from divine shield. So no, the divine dip alone isn't the only AC monster issue - but if you take the 69 AC and drop it to 60 it is much more reasonable to be able to be touchable by other build AB's.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by -stick- » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:56 pm

strong yeet wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:58 am
I feel like a lot of people in this thread are advocating for more DR, more DI, both physical and not-physical.

I also feel like to do this demonstrates a certain lack of experience where fighting heavy DR/DI builds is concerned -- it's not fun, it's excruciatingly boring, frustrating and feeds into the same issue of "tank builds are way too strong and virtually unkillable" that we're dealing with now, just with damage mitigation rather than damage avoidance. For the love of god, don't buff EDR. It's a huge investment because it pays huge dividends. It needs to remain a huge investment.

On the whole, I don't see this making a significant change to the "meta" so to speak beyond making already semi-viable builds like Brycer, or 25/5 fighter WM, up to or exceeding par. I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing, but I don't think it's going to make pure fighters or what have you into real competitors where mechanical power is concerned.
Agreed , if some of this di/dr stuff goes live we will see a lot of those 40% to 50% di with -10dr builds running around.

If you move the insane stuff to lvl 28 it might work

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Red_Wharf » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:13 pm

-stick- wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:56 pm
Agreed , if some of this di/dr stuff goes live we will see a lot of those 40% to 50% di with -10dr builds running around.

If you move the insane stuff to lvl 28 it might work
Most fighters (if going deep into the class) will have an easy time reaching 30% damage immunity with the new feats. 35% (slashing) if wielding the Rune Wall shield. Half-orcs, Gnolls, Minotaurs, and Ogres get another 5% DI. Another 3% can be squeezed out of five Hexblade levels with Curse of Life, but literally no one will do that for obvious reasons. If there are other ways of increasing DI, please mention, but I think this is it. So in my opinion, to say that there'll be lots of 40% to 50% DI builds out there with this feat update is a little exaggeration.

Warlock and Barbarian (EDIT: Forgot about Hexblade even though I mentioned it up above. Reasonable Hexblade builds will peak at 12% or 15% DI. PDK can also give DI, but it only works on someone else, so I'm not sure if that counts here) are the only classes that provide DI, and it peaks at 10% compared to the 20% provided by the new Fighter feats. Now, if this is too much, I'll leave it to the mathematicians, but at least the second Epic Armor Mastery feat requires 21 Fighter levels, what means we won't see critical hit-immune Fighter Palemasters with meme levels of damage mitigation (what can already be done, kind of, with mixing PM and Barbarian together).

Also, what this update does is making it easier for Humans and Half-elves to do what Dwarves and Half-orcs have been doing for a long time, and that is playing EDR barbs without hating themselves too much. In other words, the EDR requirement decrease from 21 to 19 CON makes it a little easier for Humans and Half-elves to reach the necessary strength score to pick Thundering Rage as well while adding something like one AB point for races already able to do so.

With all of this said, I don't think we need to add even more DR and DI beyond the already proposed changes by Garrbear.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by CNS » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:20 pm

Edr changes don't really affect warlocks, at least not the requirements. Warlocks will still pump con.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Sigmar Revenge » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:17 pm

20% fighter DI + 10% Armor//Helmet + 5% Orog/Horc/Gnoll/Ogre/Mino + 5% Rune Wall = 40% DI vs physical without -any- real investment. (numbers depend if its slashing/piercing/bludgeoning, but 17 con is ez)
Example of build just out of my head? 22 fighter 3 rogue 5 wm on scimi/rapier - loses 1 AB to old-good 20/3/7 / gets +60 hp and 40% DI. While it surely counters dexers after stacking this physical DI+elemental DI+elemental DR etc. , what about non-fighter STR builds?
They kinda feel lackluster compared to this and im sure there might be more builds like this ahead.

While I surely agree Fighter could use some love, like:
-second wind/epic second wind: sounds good
-honed edge: good idea but might need more tweaking
-action surge: surely a strong buff
-prec. strikes: sounds alright? but might need more tweaking and lowering crit multip. sounds little bit too much tho..

(Thing that keeps me wonder, if Fighter would get THAT much DI, how DD gonna look like? Cuz they also need some love.)

In summary, I think fighter reaching anything near that DI is going to bust dexers, but also other builds - swashes/bards/rogues, most of these classes dmg source is -physical- so im in huge favor of giving Fighter more good feats/abilities but then I would seek compromise/balance elsewhere. Personally I feel nerfing monk/div dips would be good step forward:
-3 Div dip: bonus from charisma to saves/AC capped by lvl(they still get +3 uni and wouldnt need to gear for it, 1 potion gives that)
-3 Monk dip: here im still scratching my head but same like above, capping bonus AC by lvls, they still could get ubab.

PS. Just some of my calculations, u judge what to think about it: 27 rogue 3 monk on 2x Dead Man Cross, doing average critical hit for 89(70 physical, 8 divine, 5 positive, 6 sonic) falls down to like +- 46 damage, and thats on crit.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by jomonog » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:51 pm

BobTheSkull wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:02 pm
Rogue20/BG5/SD/5 gets you fully buffed AC of 69 without IE it also has a taunt of a minimum of 42DC without gear to bring effective AC up to 75AC without IE and 85AC with IE active (no reason to activate IE on 90% of builds in module) Note 9 of this AC is coming from divine shield. So no, the divine dip alone isn't the only AC monster issue - but if you take the 69 AC and drop it to 60 it is much more reasonable to be able to be touchable by other build AB's.
Cheers, yeah so there is no actual 70ac dex meta build (although 69ac is getting close). Where would you take the 9ac from it? If you drop the ability to dip divine that also hurts strength builds like brycers. A better approach if that build is a problem i think would be to look at some of the possibly overtuned rogue cookies that let it hit those defences and still be a threat AB and damage wise. I think the team has already balanced grenades recently so maybe that builds more balanced now.

And if you count effective AC from taunt and stuff then theres a strength build that can get effective ac in the mid 70s that no one seems to think is a problem which I'd guess is more powerful than the rogue/sd/divine.

I dont think the answer to balancing dex and strength is as simple as just removing ac from dex which is why i think the changes being floated here giving new feats to certain strength builds are a better way to go.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Arigard » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:22 pm

BobTheSkull wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:02 pm
jomonog wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:21 pm
Im not sure what the mythical 70ac dex meta build is that everyone seems to be hating on. Unless people are quoting 70ac in IE i dont actually think there is a build considered A or B+ tier that gets those numbers.
Rogue20/BG5/SD/5 gets you fully buffed AC of 69 without IE it also has a taunt of a minimum of 42DC without gear to bring effective AC up to 75AC without IE and 85AC with IE active (no reason to activate IE on 90% of builds in module) Note 9 of this AC is coming from divine shield. So no, the divine dip alone isn't the only AC monster issue - but if you take the 69 AC and drop it to 60 it is much more reasonable to be able to be touchable by other build AB's.
Taunt doesn't add AC. It debuffs someone else's AC.

And speaking of taunt, I just had an idea. What about if with enough of a taunt roll you can temporarily disable epic dodge during the 5 rounds on top of the AC loss? It already applies spell failure (why would an epic wizard be less able to use their abilities than an epic rogue after being taunted?), why not epic dodge?

Another idea:

Requirements 13/14 int (You could add other pre-requisites like skill focus discipline) :

Targeted attack.

You sacrifice -5 (or 25% dmg)

Improved targeted attack.

You sacrifice -10 (Or 50% dmg -) for 10ab. Neither feat stacks with true strike or applies to any skill rolls (Disarm/Knockdown). Doesn't stack with divine wrath, or rage bonuses (So it would only be +3/+8) in rage. Or it could simply not work in rage at all, or be half effective (I.e in rage Targeted attack does nothing, improved only applies targeted).

-Anyone could take the feat this way.
-Weapon-masters are so feat starved anyway they wouldn't be able to fit both in (or either if extra feats were required) along with other things they might want.
- All other builds, except for those with bonus feats need to really think if it would be worth investing in, especially if more pre-requisites were added.
-Divine builds are already investing in Divine shield/might/power attack. Even on a human you are one feat short pre-epic to get both if pre-requisites are added.
-Fighters have the bonus of extra feats to be able to take it.
-WM Barb already needs 6 feats pre epic before taking improved crit/blind fight. Adding three more on top requires dropping epic feats which are needed for class features and other ab boosting things like EWF.
- At 10ab and say -50%* dmg, you're able to hit more often, but you aren't pulling the ridiculous damage that could end a fight in moments.

*These amounts could be easily tweaked to balance it.

So basically something like this would heavily favor fighters, or characters that aren't either going for divine might/shield and therefore getting the bonuses of those class skills, other spell-casting, or weapon master buffs, which to me is really where the issue is. Those classes aren't hitting as hard, getting as high AC/AB (due to buffs), nor do they get the bonus of spellcasting/summoning etc. Their reason to exist is to hit stuff & that alone, so at least give them the chance to be able to do that. I think the calculations earlier in the thread by Zaphiel show that once people start hitting the 65-70 mark on AC, be it in expertise or not, the point of fighting someone at that point even with high AB (50) might as well be 0. (Actually 0.28%).

Is taunt useful? Sure, but it also flatfoots you, gives someone a flurry of sneaks and free attacks to hit you and isn't guaranteed. You also need to keep doing it over and over, opening yourself up to more and more damage. It also doesn't actually solve the problem against the higher ACs in the game + Edodge still leaving mundanes with odds that they will simply never, ever be able to overcome.

I appreciate the above is a bit complicated and is going to annoy people because it'll require rerolls and builds will be screwed up due to starting stats etc. So... what about that taunt idea? :lol:
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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:57 am

Seems like enough people have done the math already where I don't have to to give feedback on the new stuff, so I will just say that i like the direction most of it is going. I do have some thoughts though.

Since you can tweak the crit multiplier now, what about a "haymaker" feat. -10 ab, -10 ac, increases the crit multiplier by 2. When on, you can't take any other action besides attacking, and once activated you are stuck in it for 5 rounds. Basically used for "well, I still can't hit these 70 ac 40+ save dex builds without getting lucky, may as well go for the gold".


I agree the ranger stuff is lack luster, and would actually rather see the class move toward debuffing the enemy as opposed to personal buffs. Starting point suggestions:

Net:

On a successful touch attack target is slowed and their ac is lowered by 10. Characters effected by this loose epic dodge for as long as the effect lasts.

Whistle of the wilds: A ranger calls upon the animals in the area to make a lot of noise, distracting any casters near by.

Enemy casters must make a successful concentration roll or suffer spell failure 50% for the duration.

Granted, neither of these really have anything to do with strength, I just feel like they add a lot more to the class flavor then the ideas you have, since rangers are trappers too. These weren't thought out well, they were just meant as examples of a baseline to start from.

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Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Nevrus » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:18 am

Since you can tweak the crit multiplier now, what about a "haymaker" feat. -10 ab, -10 ac, increases the crit multiplier by 2. When on, you can't take any other action besides attacking, and once activated you are stuck in it for 5 rounds. Basically used for "well, I still can't hit these 70 ac 40+ save dex builds without getting lucky, may as well go for the gold".
You need to actually hit the AC with a confirmed roll that doesn't succeed on nat 20 in order to crit so this would do nothing other than make you easier to hit and let the dex build maybe drop IE to do so even more. Just... To throw that out there.
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