Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

[TimeAdept]

My biggest concern is the value of some of the feats, but I like the overall idea. For example, Iron Stance is really good as a dip option to the point that I feel like it should have some sort of level requirement or something because otherwise it's 4ac on-demand for a three level investment. As far as the other feats... Magebane seems nice for PvE up to a point but there's helmets that give almost the same SR most EkD builds will be pulling and in PvP it's just not that much SR which makes its place as an epic option sort of meh. The regen also seems a little strong for a prc that can build towards 61ish ac but I don't know if that's a bad thing yet considering it'll be a disincentive for hyper defensive play which can be boring (the actual regen itself doesn't worry me too much since Divine Casters are a thing).

4 paladin 10 pdk valiant (or even just boring 10 fighter) 16 dwd with 9 regen, aegis, and iron stance and divine saves/ac/dmg on a gold dwarf is definitely gonna be a thing

[helitron]

First of all, thanks for the effort to make this class better. I really like the changes put in place.

One suggestion: I don’t see why some feats require to have certain CON or CHA stats, also some require 15 others 13. Since you can take these feats only on DD levels, I think that these additional requirements are obsolete and hinder some fun combinations.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

First of all, thanks for the effort to make this class better. I really like the changes put in place.

One suggestion: I don’t see why some feats require to have certain CON or CHA stats, also some require 15 others 13. Since you can take these feats only on DD levels, I think that these additional requirements are obsolete and hinder some fun combinations.

Because we are paranoid about dex, monk, and div builds.

[mjones3]

As it stands right now 5 DD can get you immunity to sneaks if you are in combat and 6 regen while in defensive stance. Like SSS said I think they have the stat requirement so its not just taken by power builds that have a high stat spread.

They have also made most of DD's feats require heavy armor, so dex builds just simply won't jump in ever but some div builds might hesitate.

[Wings of Peace]

My biggest concern is the value of some of the feats, but I like the overall idea. For example, Iron Stance is really good as a dip option to the point that I feel like it should have some sort of level requirement or something because otherwise it's 4ac on-demand for a three level investment. As far as the other feats... Magebane seems nice for PvE up to a point but there's helmets that give almost the same SR most EkD builds will be pulling and in PvP it's just not that much SR which makes its place as an epic option sort of meh. The regen also seems a little strong for a prc that can build towards 61ish ac but I don't know if that's a bad thing yet considering it'll be a disincentive for hyper defensive play which can be boring (the actual regen itself doesn't worry me too much since Divine Casters are a thing).

4 paladin 10 pdk valiant (or even just boring 10 fighter) 16 dwd with 9 regen, aegis, and iron stance and divine saves/ac/dmg on a gold dwarf is definitely gonna be a thing

I think it could be taken farther which is why I worry about how accessible the feats are for how valuable they are. A Str Bard 20/Paladin 3/Ek.D 7 could easily hit 64ac/74ac(IE) before haste while netting 6 regen on top of that. And that's before talking about how the same character would have incredible saves, solid damage, and a good chance to hit most things.

Edit: After looking at it, haste is unlikely to matter for your ac actually. You'd already have +20 dodge from 5(song)+4(iron stance)+1(boots)+1(mage armor)+9(divine shield). 64/74 ac is still a crapload on a strength chasis though, especially with all the other conveniences it can fit like enough lore for 7th level scrolls and the regen.

[Nitro]

As it stands right now 5 DD can get you immunity to sneaks if you are in combat and 6 regen while in defensive stance. Like SSS said I think they have the stat requirement so its not just taken by power builds that have a high stat spread.

They have also made most of DD's feats require heavy armor, so dex builds just simply won't jump in ever but some div builds might hesitate.

Defensive awareness does not prevent sneak attacks, neither from flat-footing or flanking. It just negates the +2 AB attackers normally get from flanking.

[mjones3]

Defensive awareness 2 which is gained at level 5 of EKD prevents sneak attacks gained from flanking. It does not prevent sneak attacks from stealth, invisibility, or if you are blind/in darkness.

(2): The character can no longer be flanked, since he can react to opponents on opposite sides of him as easily as he can react to a single attack.

[Tsunami]

Can I ask for clarification please on if the DD skills/benefits require heavy armour?

The following link states yes,
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/User:Mattamue

The following quote has no mention of it as far as I can see.

Don't know why it's not on the forum, I assume it's an oversight or someone was too busy, but for the sake of anyone who doesn't Discord:

Earthkin Defender update on PGCC only:

Class progression changed to the following:
1: Defensive Stance, Dodge, Class Feat
2: Earthkin Resilience
4: Class Feat
7: Class Feat
9: Evasion
10: Class Feat
11: Epic Earthkin Defender
13: Epic Class Feat
15: Armor Skin
16: Epic Class Feat
19: Epic Class Feat

The standard DR scaling has been removed. Earthkin Resilience grants 1 DR per 2 levels instead.

Defensive Stance: It has been changed to +1 AB, +2 dodge AC, +2 uni saves, and temporary health equal to double the character's earthkin defender levels. In addition the movement speed penalty is substantially less than it was before. (will have ~12 second cooldown)

Epic Earthkin Defender: The feat grants an additional +2 DR and further reduces the movement speed penalty of Defensive Stance.

Class feats can only be spent on a special pool of Earthkin Defender feats. The majority of these feats have three tiers to them, the THIRD tier will always cost an epic feat. In addition there are a few epic feats independent of the tiered options. Bonuses will be displayed in the format of 1/2/3 in regards to what the benefit is depending on the tier.

Class feats:
Iron Stance: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. The benefits of Defensive Stance are replaced with +2 AB, +4 dodge AC, +4 uni saves, and temporary health equal to quadruple the Earthkin Defender's class level. Defensive Stance's speed is decreased by this feat.

Safeguard: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. All other allies (not the Earthkin Defender) are granted 10/15/20 physical damage immunity and 0/16/26 SR for 24 seconds. This ability has a 2 minute cooldown.

Debilitating Strike: Prerequisite: Strength 15. Make a melee touch attack at -12/-8/-4 AB against a target. On a successful hit the target's movement speed is decreased by 25% for 3 rounds. At the third tier the target will make a fortitude saving throw (with spellcraft) vs. a DC equal to half of the Earthkin Defender's levels + strength modifier + 20. On a failed save the target is affected by the Slow spell instead for 3 rounds.

Banner: Prerequisite: Charisma 13. Deploy a stationary fragile banner that will stand for 60 seconds. Allies within its radius receive +1/+2/+3 AB, +1/+2/+3 Uni, +10/+16/+26 SR, +1/+2/+3 to all skills, +1/+2/+3 damage, and +10%/+20%/+40% movement speed.

Mounting Resistance: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. The Earthkin Defender receives +3/+6/+9 regeneration while in Defensive Stance.


Epic Feats:

Magebane: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. The Earthkin Defender passively gains SR equal to 12 + their Earthkin Defender level.

Aegis: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. The Earthkin Defender and their allies gain temporary health equal to sextuple the Earthkin Defender’s total class level.

Deterrence: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. All other allies near the Earthkin Defender receive biteback damage. The damage is calculated by a number of d3 dice equal to the Earthkin Defender’s base constitution modifier. Lasts for 18 seconds.


Developer Commentary:

While Earthkin Defender has always been effective it has often not been a particularly exciting class. It’s slow and dated, often feeling outclassed by other options. The aim of this update is to provide more build choices and more combat options for the Earthkin Defender while making them more engaging to play.

This is still a work in progress and will spend some time on the PGCC for testing. Feedback on the forums is welcome. Numbers and balancing are not final.

Many thanks
-Icy

[Mattamue]

The note about heavy armor being required is from another developer (not the developer working on the class update) and the note is from the official Discord. Clicking the link on the "requires heavy armor" link wiki page leads to the conversation in Discord where that is mentioned.

Not everyone has Discord, so here's a quick snip to the conversation that's linked on the wiki:



There's a disclaimer on the wiki page and I'll repeat it here. That wiki page is a draft. The draft may have information that isn't from an update thread post. Information may be from a question or two asked on Discord or information discovered testing on the PGCC. The information may be incorrect, outdated, or even depreciated if a developer decides to take another direction. Everything that's known is being put there to be as democratic with the information as possible.

If there is feedback about heavy armor being a requirement or not please give that feedback and then a dev can respond. Eventually, the next official update from the devs would have included a note about the armor, or not, if they decided to go a different way. Hope that helps.

Otherwise, a little off topic from ED changes, here's some further explanation why that page is being used and why the drafted class is even on the wiki. Usually, wiki editors use their profile page (http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/User:Mattamue in my case) as a sandbox to prototype and see how stuff works. When an editor updates and changes their own user page all the other editors and admins will be able to see at a glance that updates are only happening to a user's own user page. No one else has to worry about what goes on that page because it isn't tied to any other pages, templates, or anything important really. The user page could change at any time and likely will go back to resources and other templates once the space isn't being used as a draft for the class changes.

As for why the draft changes are there; the page is being used as a test to see how having a draft works out. When updates to a class are on PGCC the wiki editors don't usually track those updates on the wiki. This wasn't done for IB, for example. Afterward, not having a drafted IB page felt like a little bit of a missed opportunity. So, this time around, giving it a try out.

[Xerah]

It's just any armour at the moment.

[Tsunami]

The note about heavy armor being required is from another developer (not the developer working on the class update) and the note is from the official Discord. Clicking the link on the "requires heavy armor" link wiki page leads to the conversation in Discord where that is mentioned.

Not everyone has Discord, so here's a quick snip to the conversation that's linked on the wiki:



There's a disclaimer on the wiki page and I'll repeat it here. That wiki page is a draft. The draft may have information that isn't from an update thread post. Information may be from a question or two asked on Discord or information discovered testing on the PGCC. The information may be incorrect, outdated, or even depreciated if a developer decides to take another direction. Everything that's known is being put there to be as democratic with the information as possible.

If there is feedback about heavy armor being a requirement or not please give that feedback and then a dev can respond. Eventually, the next official update from the devs would have included a note about the armor, or not, if they decided to go a different way. Hope that helps.

Otherwise, a little off topic from ED changes, here's some further explanation why that page is being used and why the drafted class is even on the wiki. Usually, wiki editors use their profile page (http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/User:Mattamue in my case) as a sandbox to prototype and see how stuff works. When an editor updates and changes their own user page all the other editors and admins will be able to see at a glance that updates are only happening to a user's own user page. No one else has to worry about what goes on that page because it isn't tied to any other pages, templates, or anything important really. The user page could change at any time and likely will go back to resources and other templates once the space isn't being used as a draft for the class changes.

As for why the draft changes are there; the page is being used as a test to see how having a draft works out. When updates to a class are on PGCC the wiki editors don't usually track those updates on the wiki. This wasn't done for IB, for example. Afterward, not having a drafted IB page felt like a little bit of a missed opportunity. So, this time around, giving it a try out.

Please do not think my post was meant in any way as a slight on your wiki! - I was querying for clarification as if it was meant to be plate I would have reported the PGCC currently allows it in all armours.

I actually am quite fond of the idea on EKD/DD being able to be in leather also. But keeping it away from armour-less Monks

It's just any armour at the moment.

Thanks for clarification Xerah!

[Mortem_Fero]

I am also liking the idea of EKD to benefits from his traits while in light/medium armour. Especially now that DD has been changed to EKD and allows for halflings and gnomes to take the class. Seeing a EDK halfling/gnome in padded or medium armour as opposed to only in heavy armour seems more believable (in my opinion).

As long as they require to wear armour and do not allow for cloth to disable monks from going EKD seems reasonable. Most Dex builds that do not dip in Rogues/full rogues to enable "Lightly Armoured" will normally go for cloths and would be limiting their AC by wearing any type of armour.

In addition some of the traits of EDK require base strength and base con (mostly con if i remember correctly) to be used.

If full Dex builds going EDK is and issue maybe a middle way of requiring "leather armour" or "hide/Studded Leather Armor" could be considered? Or tying more feat to a base strength investment?

[Mattamue]

Testing some of the updates on PGCC:

• Debilitating strike III is -8 AB on the touch attack when it appears it should be -4. Screenshot using debil III (42 AB) and then the first attack in a flurry (50 AB).
  

• Magebane feat says SR 11 + DR, but other stuff says 12 + Earthkin Defender level. Not sure which it should be?
  

• Safeguard III ended up leaving improved safeguard as a selectable feat. Choosing either one still applied the greater version, so that worked, but there were still two versions to choose from.
  

[mjones3]

Debilitating strike III is -8 AB on the touch attack when it appears it should be -4. Screenshot using debil III (42 AB) and then the first attack in a flurry (50 AB).

I think thats your AB lost from the weapon. Since touch attacks no longer get weapon AB. -4 for the feat and -4 for the loss of enchantment bonus from the rune axe.

[Mattamue]

Debilitating strike III is -8 AB on the touch attack when it appears it should be -4. Screenshot using debil III (42 AB) and then the first attack in a flurry (50 AB).

I think thats your AB lost from the weapon. Since touch attacks no longer get weapon AB. -4 for the feat and -4 for the loss of enchantment bonus from the rune axe.

Ahhh good catch, exactly what it is.

[jomonog]

The regen from mounting resistance doesnt seem to work in combat at the moment, or at least on the character i made on PGCC. It works ok when you activate stance but then seems to disappear and not come back when you start fighting.

Also, to clarify, the works in any armor means not robes? (or are robes armor?)

[mjones3]

I think it only works in light, medium, and heavy type armor, not clothing which would be robes.

[Tsunami]

The regen from mounting resistance doesnt seem to work in combat at the moment, or at least on the character i made on PGCC. It works ok when you activate stance but then seems to disappear and not come back when you start fighting.

I can also confirm the above was present. Also the amount seems to be 3 regen, no matter if Improved/Greater are taken - I am sure this has been noted already but thought I would clarify as per my PGCC time yesterday

[Tsunami]

Defensive Stance buffs (AC, Regen etc) are lost when temp HP is lost (Tested right now) - Not sure if PGCC only

[Aniel]

I'm not sure when they'll be live but there are updates submitted that should fix the regeneration scaling and the defensive stance buffs falling off with the temporary HP.

Thanks for being patient.

[Gorirah]

I'm releveling an Earthkin on the Surface server but got stuck when I found that the Mounting Resistance III feat is not available, having taken the first two of them.

[Mattamue]

Tier III requires an epic feat, so you can only take it on defender levels 13, 16, and 19.

[Gorirah]

Tier III requires an epic feat, so you can only take it on defender levels 13, 16, and 19.

I can't see where this is clear on the Wiki, so the description there may need a change. This is the same with other tier III class feats?

[Gorirah]

Also, if you take Iron Stance and another feat to tier two, then you'll be left to take an odd tier one feat at 10th which may be next to useless on its own.

Edit:
Maybe there could be an additional single tier feat, or a second tier to Iron Stance to counter the additional movement penalty?

[Tsunami]

Tier III requires an epic feat, so you can only take it on defender levels 13, 16, and 19.

I can't see where this is clear on the Wiki, so the description there may need a change. This is the same with other tier III class feats?

Also, if you take Iron Stance and another feat to tier two, then you'll be left to take an odd tier one feat at 10th which may be next to useless on its own.

Edit:
Maybe there could be an additional single tier feat, or a second tier to Iron Stance to counter the additional movement penalty?

The class was released 24 hours ago or so, the Wiki is unlikely to be completely up to date, this will take some time.

As for the 'spare' feat, this is the penalty you pay for taking Iron stance. Knowing that you have sacrificed the completion of a second 'set' for the good value that Iron Stance offers. It is a trade-off.
If it helps, The resistances to your party is useful even on first tier