The Rebalancing of Gold

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Security_Blanket
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by Security_Blanket » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:18 pm

Xerah wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:12 pm
It's already capped at 20m (which is way too high). . .
Oh, ok, well how about introducing an income tax to banks. Banks won't hold your gold for free, they have to make money too. Put a percentage tax in that comes into effect if you have X amount of gold in the bank.

Xerah wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:12 pm
. . . but it doesn't matter since someone can open an infinite amount of faction accounts with the same limit.
I would think that opening faction accounts as a workaround would be an exploit.

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AstralUniverse
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:23 pm

Its not an exploit because there's no rule that determines any gold limit a character can have.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by Xerah » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:24 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:17 pm
If there's one thing that's really a buzz kill is when you level your exp faster than your gold. In that, for example, you get to lvl 16 and you can no longer select some of the early 10s writs that you can solo, you want to select lvl 15-20 writs now but your gear is utter crap and you're forced to not only waste time in lower level areas), but you also dont have writ selection that you can handle. This may be just me, tho. Due to my time zone I mostly solo.
When I first got here (only 3y ago), I remember going from mithral to addy used to take a long while; you were still collecting in epic levels. You also never had a mdamark weapon waiting for you at 16, unlike now when you almost always have the gold to have one by then (or other better pieces).
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:27 pm

Xerah wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:24 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:17 pm
If there's one thing that's really a buzz kill is when you level your exp faster than your gold. In that, for example, you get to lvl 16 and you can no longer select some of the early 10s writs that you can solo, you want to select lvl 15-20 writs now but your gear is utter crap and you're forced to not only waste time in lower level areas), but you also dont have writ selection that you can handle. This may be just me, tho. Due to my time zone I mostly solo.
When I first got here (only 3y ago), I remember going from mithral to addy used to take a long while; you were still collecting in epic levels. You also never had a mdamark weapon waiting for you at 16, unlike now when you almost always have the gold to have one by then (or other better pieces).
I didnt say the absolute best gear with 5%. But if you generally gain gold so slow that you level up to your next gear tier but cannot afford it, it is straight up bad design. I'm not saying it's going to happen now, I'm saying it's a concern.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Security_Blanket
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by Security_Blanket » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:30 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:23 pm
Its not an exploit because there's no rule that determines any gold limit a character can have.
Perhaps herein lies the root of the problem. Anything someone can get away with, you can trust them abuse until there's a hard stance taken.

Draco Deleteur
Dreadlord Lucius Blackhand - "All is as Bane wills it."


Xerah
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by Xerah » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:36 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:27 pm
I didnt say the absolute best gear with 5%. But if you generally gain gold so slow that you level up to your next gear tier but cannot afford it, it is straight up bad design. I'm not saying it's going to happen now, I'm saying it's a concern.
Where did I say anything about 5% items.

I don't know where this idea comes from that you need to be fully geared with your mdamask/addy at 16 or it's bad design comes from.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:44 pm

Xerah wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:36 pm
I don't know where this idea comes from that you need to be fully geared with your mdamask/addy at 16 or it's bad design comes from.
okay, no you didnt say 5%, but I didnt say addy or MDamask either. I'm more conerned about an extreme case of not being able to get even mithril by 16, or things like sargeant's cloak, or double stat items. As long as we can at least afford those things sole from adventuring income by mid-late teens, I think its alright. Just expressing my concern.
Security_Blanket wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:30 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:23 pm
Its not an exploit because there's no rule that determines any gold limit a character can have.
Perhaps herein lies the root of the problem. Anything someone can get away with, you can trust them abuse until there's a hard stance taken.
Just because there's no rule written about something, doesnt mean it's an oversight. Maybe there is just no cap, and that's the hard stance taken.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Security_Blanket
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by Security_Blanket » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:50 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:44 pm
Just because there's no rule written about something, doesnt mean it's an oversight. Maybe there is just no cap, and that's the hard stance taken.
Xerah wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:12 pm
It's already capped at 20m (which is way too high) but it doesn't matter since someone can open an infinite amount of faction accounts with the same limit.
But there is a cap, and there is a way to simply avoid it.

Draco Deleteur
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AstralUniverse
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:53 pm

Security_Blanket wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:50 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:44 pm
Just because there's no rule written about something, doesnt mean it's an oversight. Maybe there is just no cap, and that's the hard stance taken.
Xerah wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:12 pm
It's already capped at 20m (which is way too high) but it doesn't matter since someone can open an infinite amount of faction accounts with the same limit.
But there is a cap, and there is a way to simply avoid it.
Afaik it's just a mechanical limitation, or used to be and was just left as is for long time until it was actually raised from 10 to 20 mil. tl dr, there's no reason IC reason to stop hoarding gold, and there's no rule against having more gold than x. So the bank's limitation is really meaningless.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Ork
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by Ork » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:54 pm

One of the prevailing reasons DEX is just easier to level is the absolute gold tax on STR characters for AC. I wrote out two builds AC as they leveled and DEX's AC far outpaces STR (obviously) but the disparity is even greater because of the cost for STR gear. While my DEX is roaming around with +3 AC cloth after buying addy rocks, my STR is stuck in mithril due to the cost of addy FP. Hurting gold acquisition does slightly buff dex vs. str solely in equipment alone.

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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:04 pm

More feedback. Again, some of my stuff (as always) is radical:

- All accounts that have more than 5 million (-faction or otherwise) receive once per RL month (or in-game year) "Amnian tax" of 10%.

- Make adamantine spawn in high teens dungeons.

- Add a new rule that says, "You cannot sell any property for more than the mechanical price displayed via the signpost/tag. Doing so is a punishable offense."

- Make rods craftable.

- Let low-level dungeons spawn high-level gear, if chests are opened by low-level characters (that is, counterbalance late game enfranchised epic dungeon loops)

Suggestion notes: The problem with balances to the economy is not one of numbers (percentages, gold drops, writ rewards, etc.) but one of player networking and OOC coordination. Characters should be rewarded for their growth in narrative and connections, however, the biggest disparity between "casual" versus "non-casual" is not the rate at which gold drops in chests, but rather, how "non-casual" players can more readily and easily coordinate for large end-game dungeon runs.

Also, once again, if there is strong incentives to get on Discord to coordinate, we need to regulate that more and more. So much of Discord is borderline (borderline griefing, borderline metagaming, borderline not being nice), that it needs to go away.

The fact we have an Arelith Discord supports and condones a lot of borderline behaviour.
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Xerah
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by Xerah » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:12 pm

Having an OOC way to plan events and adventures is not something that needs to go away.
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Drowboy
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by Drowboy » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:18 pm

As much as I'm not a huge fan of discords for every single thing, having an online community means understanding that people have like, exterior lives from pretending to be elves

(I'd argue that some kind of hardcore "no ooc communication! my immersion!" rule is more embarrassingly extremely online that having a glorified irc chat, something arelith had back in 2006)
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-XXX-
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by -XXX- » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:28 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:04 pm
- All accounts that have more than 5 million (-faction or otherwise) receive once per RL month (or in-game year) "Amnian tax" of 10%.
Every gem pouch can hold 1,000,000 gp in staters. It's also possible to manage an indefinite number of -faction accounts. You can split any amount of gold coins into incremental sums lesser than 5,000,000 right now!
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:04 pm
- Make adamantine spawn in high teens dungeons.
And have epics interfere with those who are trying to do writs?

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:04 pm
- Add a new rule that says, "You cannot sell any property for more than the mechanical price displayed via the signpost/tag. Doing so is a punishable offense."
This is an issue that needs addressing, but your proposed solution would only further incentivize people into holding onto quarters indefinitely. Selling quarters for outrageous sums is bad, but at least they are changing hands.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:04 pm
- Make rods craftable.
What? Why? That's a bit random, most rods are garbage.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:04 pm
- Let low-level dungeons spawn high-level gear, if chests are opened by low-level characters (that is, counterbalance late game enfranchised epic dungeon loops)
I've been collecting magical items from named monsters in endgame dungeons (2x +1 ability, 4x +2 skill - grade). I've been then selling them for 700 gp - they still sold very slowly. I mention this to outline how selling magical item loot is NOT how anyone is making profit.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:04 pm
Suggestion notes: The problem with balances to the economy is not one of numbers (percentages, gold drops, writ rewards, etc.) but one of player networking and OOC coordination. Characters should be rewarded for their growth in narrative and connections, however, the biggest disparity between "casual" versus "non-casual" is not the rate at which gold drops in chests, but rather, how "non-casual" players can more readily and easily coordinate for large end-game dungeon runs.

Also, once again, if there is strong incentives to get on Discord to coordinate, we need to regulate that more and more. So much of Discord is borderline (borderline griefing, borderline metagaming, borderline not being nice), that it needs to go away.

The fact we have an Arelith Discord supports and condones a lot of borderline behaviour.
People are using social networks in 2020. It's the norm. Can't ban this, can't mitigate this. Having an official discord channel allows the team to have at least some awareness of the OOC discourse between players.

Nitro
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by Nitro » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:03 pm

Security_Blanket wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:30 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:23 pm
Its not an exploit because there's no rule that determines any gold limit a character can have.
Perhaps herein lies the root of the problem. Anything someone can get away with, you can trust them abuse until there's a hard stance taken.
Then they could just turn their surplus cash into staters. As it currently stands it would be impossible to enforce a gold maximum on Arelith characters without actually changing faction and settlement accounts and staters to work different to the way they do now.

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Flower Power
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by Flower Power » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:23 pm

Wait, people are having trouble getting gold?

Gold is, was, and likely shall remain, obnoxiously easy to get. I made a new character recently, a STR-based character who has the regular "taxes" levied on them of having to spend way more on gear than DEX-based characters do and constantly needing to drop money on healing supplies, and I've made in excess of 100k gold before level 10 already - and that's with only spending 1-2 hours a day doing writs and maybe doing a dungeon run or two in addition - and gold only gets easier to obtain as you level up.

No shop. No high level buddies handing me gear or cutting me favors. Gold is incredibly easy to get.
what would fred rogers do?

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ImWithThisGuy
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Re: The Rebalancing of Gold

Post by ImWithThisGuy » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:28 am

Xerah wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:59 pm
ImWithThisGuy wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:44 pm
*This change hurts casual players as much or more than dedicated or veteran players, short term and long term.
I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of how gold moves through the economy. Gold moves from levelling characters to established characters through PC shops, primiarly. If these casual players have less gold, then the price for things will eventually adjust down to compensate. If character primarily geared up through NPC shops that don't change costs, then you would be right, but there is a fluctuating economy.
I must not have been very clear with my first post, I apologize. While gold drops are something of small concern, they aren't what really got me thinking. But for clarity's sake; when I say that casual players are effected both long term and short term, they are for different reasons: (apologies, I'm a long winded buffoon)

Short term, casual players are effected more for as long as prices stay high. Until the market stabilizes, they will have an even harder time making up the difference in price and gold availability. Less opportunity to gain gold means high gold valued items will eventually go on the decline, but initially, there will be a bit of a disconnect causing a poorly represented price vs actual value. With a lower total gold pool, they can afford much less.

Long term, casual players may have to compete with higher level epics even back in lower level areas, or perhaps more aggressive territory battles in high ones. Needless to say, casual players are at a harsh disadvantage here. Now I don't mean to say that this issue doesn't already exist, because it certainly does; The change doesn't do anything to address it, and I suppose it could possibly worsen it. The point is when a casual player already makes less than your typical dedicated player, and then subsequently gets shut out by~ that dedicated player, malicious or not.. the gap only widens. I'm aware the devs will step in if it gets out of hand, but I feel those situations are better avoided than approached.

I won't pretend to know everything about marketing or economy, and you're right about both player shops being a large source of gold market, as well as that the cost of things eventually declining. But I can say as a casual player myself that if there is something that makes me worry more than I already do about going to high level areas, or worse, some medium-low level areas, there's a larger issue that needs to be addressed. Places like the Lost Desert come to mind, Glorag Mur, The undead fields and manor, as well as the ogre cave in Minmir, and even Kholingen will all be seeing much more attention now from people that are a fair ways above their level. Those listed range from level 15-20, but they would do wonders in loot drops compared to the now-nerfed epic dungeons. Give it a couple easy loops and you've already made the difference in your average rune drop. Not that I support the mentality, but it's prevalent enough to reference.

Not that I think these places need further adjustment either; not at all- It's just that once things are taken into mind like scrolls, consumables, loot tables between different mobs (Undead dropping higher value scrolls; constructs dropping useful crafting materials, etc.), magical weapons, and skills that increase value from vendors.. It's just too easy to surpass your average run in Runic-tier dungeon like Mourn, Maur, Aurillites, Slime temple, and otherwise. I don't think that's the intent, but I don't know everything going on behind the curtain or knowledge on future changes; so I can only offer an outside view.

But I digress! I would generally state that's a minor worry when compared to party disparity (more on that later) or the writ changes; mostly because I don't know to what extent they have been altered. If they only offer 25% of the original reward... They simply don't offer enough when those characters split their non-writ gold, even so far as funding consumables. Reducing these values will effect casual players the most (read as, compared to drops), because that set gold value will very likely make up a higher percent of their total gold pool than the gold pool of a dedicated or grindy player. There have been times where all I could do was hop on, do my three writs, and hop off.
TLDR
I test ran a few dungeons this evening and came to an average 8000 per dungeon and 1500 per writ, so with two other people, I gained a total of (8000/3party) +1500writ = 4100. Then I used various bandages, wands, potions, scrolls, spell components, etc.. I spent more, but for the sake of ease, we'll go with a reasonable 1500 gold spent in those things- with all of them having set crafting/purchase prices that's very fair- that leaves 2600.. Multiplied by three writs is 8000~. 8000, to give it a set value, is roughly the same as getting a single custom Stat1Stat1Skill2Skill2 item, with average failures. And maybe a bit of pocket change left over. This assuming you're not paying much of an enchanter's fee, or doing it personally at tier 3.

That's not a whole lot to work off of, though with some persistence (or extra grinding), it's manageable. That isn't always fun but disregarding that aspect... Things start to look a whole lot different when we reduce the party members. Even if we drop that number to one other person, it's 4000, or 12000 daily(each, after expenses). A notable increase, and exactly why people don't like large parties. Soloing, those numbers make a whopping 24000 ((8000/1)+1500writ-1500cost)x3writ- per day. That's three times what I got with three people, for the same task! No wonder everyone wants to, or simply does solo. The problem only gets worse with the more people in party you have.
Anyway, these were all done by just the writs and a single pass for their dungeon's gold and grabbing all I could from bookshelves and other various tidbits, so it's far easier to make much more than this with loops search, lore, and appraise. And heck, it took an average of 30-35 minutes because I didn't bum-rush, so clearly, the amount of gold is still a high number, but then what's the issue?

It's been a sad reality for a long time, and it still remains; Partying. These gold changes were likely made to target the solo player who may have lacked some restraint, but due to this, successful or not, may also have been implemented without considering fully the players who go in groups. If changes are being made to the gold system and general economy, I for one would like to see gold changes taking into account the effects of parties, or having some points to counteract such a large disparity between solo players and party players. There are matters of factions creating easy monopolies however, So I can understand some of the downsides. Instead, a nerf to gold if there are no other players in party would be more than sufficient, if just a bit sad.

(EDIT: Phew! Almost forgot to give a TLDR for that wall of text. Sorry!)
TLDR so I didn't read your TLDR
Reduced writ gold is a worse problem for time short people than reduced drops. With lower general gold income, static prices (lenses, wisps, bandages, at-cost-scrolls, etc) are comparatively worth 'more', especially for casual players which always party; all will have significantly smaller gold pools, with larger percentages being spent on static prices. Partying is the largest disadvantage in looting capacity for everyone, but especially casuals, and should be fixed as well! That about covers it.

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