DM's and reporting rule breaks

[Leema_Leema]

There's been a consensus around my player group that reporting rule infractions doesn't amount to anything. The sentiment that nothing is done and therefore reporting these things isn't worth the time is taking hold.

I am in no way stating that this is the case but merely what our perception is. I think this boils down to three reasons:

1. The DM team does not in any way articulate anything to the reporting party other than the report was received and being looked at.

2. It's hard to see actions taken against a player as they aren't public and a lack of activity by a player if noticed could be explained by a bunch of things.

3. The reporting party never finds out if the reported situation /is/ in fact rule breaking and can lead to confusion.

This compounds on someone already having a bad RP experience due to some sort of rule breaking activity and piles on uncertainty and frustration .

Proposed solution:
I don't believe a players admin record or adverse actions taken against them should be public. However some sort of response from the DM team after a report is filed could go a long way in bringing closure to a bad experience. An example could be:

Player sends in a report with evidence. "Hey big bad evil guy just dropped a death spell in Cordor Square with no RP!"

DM's, "Report Received and being looked at."

Later on. DM's, "Yup that was in violation of server rules and action is being taken. Thanks for the report!" No specific info on what action needs to be listed but it helps to know that /something/ is being done.

Or "While yes it might look like there was no RP it wasn't a rule break because BBEG was attacking the town and you got caught in a raid. Thanks for the report!"

Thanks!

[The GrumpyCat]

Hello!

I will say - at least for myself, that most of the time (not all) I do tend to let people know if a rule HASN'T been broken.

(Often this happens when someone says their quarter was stolen from - but it went up for sale. Or when someone was killed in front of npcs (again, not a rule break, but poor form in rp) or sometimes fixture destruction which was caused by weather environmental effects).

Then there are cases where no rules were broken... but the general rp was pretty poor. It's not enough for us to really take action on... but at the same time we don't exactly want to encourage such behavior either.

One of the sad refrains I do hear disturbingly often from some players is 'Uh well, they were s***ty to me, so I'll just do it back!' (Because apprently they think the best way to make a happy healthy server is to fall to the lowest denominator).

Or there are cases where we go 'Ok so that wasn't /technicaly/ against the rules, but it is a warning sign. Let's watch this player.' Again - we don't neccesarly want to be advertising this, as it can be easily weaponized.

Lets give an example

"While yes it might look like there was no RP it wasn't a rule break because BBEG was attacking the town and you got caught in a raid. Thanks for the report!"

Later on: On Discord
'Ok guys, so apparently nothing was done as I just got caught in a raid. So here's what we do. We know Bob spends time in Cordor right? So we just declair a raid on Cordor as often as possible, making sure to 'accidently' kill Bob before he wards up every time. If we do this enough, it'll upset The player enough that they'll be driven off the server! What do you think?'

Another issue of this is just it's a lot more work for us.

To give you an idea - as said we DO try to make it policy (though sometimes we fail) to at least give a 'we've recieved your message' response to all PMs. This message is shared with the DM team, so we all know that such a message has, in the first place, been sent. We'd likely have to do that with the second reply, doubling our inbox.

Three months ago I emptied my PM inbox.
I now have 1500 messages there.
This proposed change would likely mean (at a minimum) getting 3000 messages.
I can hardly keep track of what's been replied to, what hasn't, what's being handled ect as is. I can only hope the rest of the team is more competent in that area than I!
Do demand a second follow up would pretty much double our admin work. So whilst I'm by no means against a DM, if they choose, giving a second follow up, I'm very leery about making it mandatory because that's such a lot to do.

A third reason as well, is that... it can result in a.. time expecation?

To use your example, hopefully we'd be able to contact you within, say, a week and go 'Yeah thanks, we dealt with Bob.'

Great, awsome.

But what if Bob doesn't log in much for that time and we don't catch him? What if it's a month later and we still havn't been able to have that conversation? Do we want players yelling at us going 'WHY HAVE YOU NOT DEALT WITH THIS!!!!! ARE YOU CORRUPT!'

Another situaiton is also Real Life. Maybe I take a case, meaning to work it, invesitgate it, discuss it - then my kid gets sick, and I spend the next week stressed and worried over him, all the while players are screaming at me 'WHY HAVN'T YOU DEALT WITH BOB I REPORTED THIS A MONTH AGO!'

Again, I think in clear cases where no rules have been broken, it can be a good idea to inform players - for sure. But in other cases I'm not convinced that it should be a neccecity.

[Security_Blanket]

I've had to submit more reports than I care to, some were rule breaks, others were not. But I haven't had any issues with reporting beyond that. Being told that it is being reviewed and giving me a heads up if it is not a rule-break is all I expect.

1. The DM team does not in any way articulate anything to the reporting party other than the report was received and being looked at.

Nor should they, your post isn't the only infraction they see. They are volunteering their time to help deal with troublemakers while also providing entertainment for others. Giving you a curt reply that it's been received is a courtesy.

2. It's hard to see actions taken against a player as they aren't public and a lack of activity by a player if noticed could be explained by a bunch of things.

I wouldn't want DMs announcing to players that I broke this rule or that, the punishment of players or lack thereof should be between the player and the DMs, it's nobody else's business.

3. The reporting party never finds out if the reported situation /is/ in fact rule-breaking and can lead to confusion.

I find if they do not reply send anything beyond the initial courtesy message then it was likely a rule break and you just have to trust that they'll deal with it on their end. When I was mistaken about a report and a broken rule, I've received a PM telling me how it wasn't a rule-break. If nothing gets reported then they don't know it happened.

[MalKalz]

Just to touch on it a little as Grumpycat has already responded.

There's been a consensus around my player group that reporting rule infractions doesn't amount to anything.

This is sometimes the opinion of players because punishments are not announced. However, DMs do do their work and continuously work to ensure that your safety and fun is had on the server without compromising any of our rules and mandates. They work on their own time around the clock (we have DMs of all different timezones) that attempt to address everything and anything. This does take time and they also have to do all the necessary verification before anything is finalized, actioned on or deemed not a rule break.

1. The DM team does not in any way articulate anything to the reporting party other than the report was received and being looked at.

This is not the case. The DMs receive many reports, and address them all as promptly as possible. The process is as follows:

• You submit the initial report, a member of the team will then respond that it is being investigated.
• The DM then opens a case file, which is then claimed by a singular member of the team.
• Said case file is then filled out in full with all supporting logs and so forth. Logs do take a reset to populate for the latest information - so if its not readily available, it can take up to a day to gather the information.
• DMs then need to find time to talk to players, if there is a reason to. If its not a rule break, the case can be closed.
• After all is done, the very last part of their case template is to send follow up.

Your point through 1. is in reference to the last step. As you can see, there are a lot of steps involved in handling a case (I've purposely left out some other stuff), but at the end, there is follow up. This follow up is not meant to be sent as a "Hey, you got them! We punished someone!" but a: "Your case has been looked into and addressed accordingly. If there are any other concerns that later arise, please report it."

At most, you are going to receive confirmation that it was looked into and addressed accordingly. Whether its a punishment or not. This has been something I have stressed when I was Head DM, and continued when I was in the position that Grumpycat is. I continue to stress this with the backing of the team, and everyone is on board. However, sometimes it is forgotten in the mass and we apologize that you did not get confirmation.

2. It's hard to see actions taken against a player as they aren't public and a lack of activity by a player if noticed could be explained by a bunch of things.

This is intended. You are not meant to know whether or not someone has been punished. Often times you hear of punishment because the party that broke a rule became publicly vocal in Discord or otherwise. But, at no point are we that transparent that punishments are known. Punishments are not meant to be lorded over someone; from our perspective these punishments are coaching opportunities - its to identify problems, provide warning / other means to advise of the wrong doing depending on severity and work with the player to see improvement. If people are serious about caring about this server and its community, improvement does happen.

But, this would not be the case if their punishment was shared to another person. That person would then look at an individual differently and judge their RP differently. You'd then be so cautious around them that they would be walking on egg shells. And, what fun is that for both sides? None.

3. The reporting party never finds out if the reported situation /is/ in fact rule breaking and can lead to confusion.

This is one of the more trickier things to address. You've reported what you feel is a rulebreak. If you're curious about whether or not it is one, then I would advise asking DMs on the side. If you're looking for confirmation that what the player did was a rulebreak, it touches a bit on the transparency part of 2. that I detailed.

You should be advised that it has been addressed and that it has been looked into fully. They can advise if its not a rulebreak and explain why, if you are curious. If it is a rulebreak, the team has to be cautionary in ensuring it does not paint a negative picture on the player (which is why a general statement that it has been addressed accordingly is often best). But, I will take this point as feedback and work with the team on attempting to be clear, yet still respective of the results as its between the team and the reported player.

Hope that helps.

[theCountofMonteCristo]

I like the steps Spyre outlined.
I agree that punishments need to be just between the player and the DM Team.

But this:

After all is done, the very last part of their case template is to send follow up.

Isn't happening. I've made a number of reports in the last year or so and I think only a single one has had a 'this is concluded' statement sent to me in response. I agree with the original poster on this point, that it does make it feel discouraging, like nothing is taken seriously when you get no conclusion. (Again, I have no expectations to know if there was a punishment or what it was. Just that appropriate actions (or lack of action) was taken. Even if I know it is taken seriously, it just really helps the mentality of it to be told it is done. Whatever it is,t hat it is done.

Otherwise I think the system is working as intended.

[The GrumpyCat]

I like the steps Spyre outlined.
I agree that punishments need to be just between the player and the DM Team.

But this:

After all is done, the very last part of their case template is to send follow up.

Isn't happening. I've made a number of reports in the last year or so and I think only a single one has had a 'this is concluded' statement sent to me in response. I agree with the original poster on this point, that it does make it feel discouraging, like nothing is taken seriously when you get no conclusion. (Again, I have no expectations to know if there was a punishment or what it was. Just that appropriate actions (or lack of action) was taken. Even if I know it is taken seriously, it just really helps the mentality of it to be told it is done. Whatever it is,t hat it is done.

Otherwise I think the system is working as intended.

That's fair, I'll ask the team to tighten up on this.

[triaddraykin]

Having read all of that, I just wanted to toss out a suggestion. There being some sort of checkmark system in place, visible only to The Team, that is checked when a player's been responded to. It would enable being able to see who's not been responded to. If this is put into place, don't tell the players, to avoid expectations that they are guaranteed to be gotten to. But, it would at least be a marker on your guys' side that someone's not been responded to, with a carefully cultured expectation that there's no pressure to get to all of them.

[The GrumpyCat]

This is pretty much already the case.

Firstly we have the 'reply' shown in our inbox (as mentioned) and then the case gets moved either to Pending Cases (for a DM to pick up) or Active Cases (When a DM has it and is looking into it.)

When a case is done with it's moved to Closed.

Exceptions may be made for very simple reports, but that's the jist.

[Leema_Leema]

Thanks for the responses!

You guys pretty much hit the nail on the head for me. I don't think adverse actions against a player should ever be made public and me bringing that up is just to illustrate from a player perspective was to show we can't see that action... and we shouldn't.

Getting a response from the team that the case was closed (and if it wasn't something that should be reportable getting told so we don't keep sending it in) would be great and I think fix the things we brought up.

It's was also a good point to bring up that reportable behavior may not necessarily be rule breaking behavior but still should be shown to DM's to illustrate a pattern of behavior that may not be a positive one for the server.

Thanks!

[Tsunami]

Hi All,

I just wanted to drop my comments here. I have been on Arelith (on and off... only some of these were super active) for well over 10 years. During which I have had plenty of contact with the DMs both past and present.
Situations where someone felt I had wronged them, situations where I felt I had been wronged (and had) and where I felt I had been wronged (But was just questionable RP, no rule breach).

Overall I find the DM's confirm receipt of the message and this in itself should be enough.
I also find that if my report was incorrect E.G i have claimed the corpse bashing was a rule breach, but it was justified as per RP - The DM's clarify that the rule was not breached and often give advise on how to look at things/adjust moving forward.

If a DM states they have received your report and you hear nothing, it is likely as there was a form of 'discipline/corrective action' which has not and should not be made public knowledge...
While i appreciate it can be frustrating not knowing if the rule was indeed breached and if the person who messed over your night was dealt with or not, it also would not be professional or proper for everyone to be announced when someone gets a slap on the wrist for their actions.

While i am aware that the OP was not sh*tposting the DM's and as such a defence is not required. I wanted to take the time to commend how the overall reaction from DM's on my experiences in the past.

Just my two-pence.

Kind Regards
-Icy

[Aleilsum Ellrum]

Hi All,

...Overall I find the DM's confirm receipt of the message and this in itself should be enough....

...If a DM states they have received your report and you hear nothing, it is likely as there was a form of 'discipline/corrective action' which has not and should not be made public knowledge...

The main problem is that if you report a very clear infringement of the rules then you hear of the same thing often from others, you think that nothing is happening in DM land because the behaviour of the players is not changing.

[MalKalz]

Hi All,

...Overall I find the DM's confirm receipt of the message and this in itself should be enough....

...If a DM states they have received your report and you hear nothing, it is likely as there was a form of 'discipline/corrective action' which has not and should not be made public knowledge...

The main problem is that if you report a very clear infringement of the rules then you hear of the same thing often from others, you think that nothing is happening in DM land because the behaviour of the players is not changing.

Just remember that players do not decide what is a “very clear infringement”. You may believe it is; however, logs and investigations may suggest otherwise.

[DangerDolphin]

First of all, I'd like to praise the professionality of the DM team in how strictly they regard confidentiality and how professional they are despite basically doing an unpaid and thankless job.

That said, my own concerns with the reporting system have echoed the original poster's in that breaking the spirit of the server rules seems to be commonplace and unpunished. Whether this is because the DM team is undermanned for such a huge server, or if they cannot take action unless the letter of the law and not the spirit of them has been broken, I'm unsure.

I say this not just from experience in reporting, but also in that I have taken actions where I would have expected to be warned over that came to nothing. I am sure many people have had similar experiences, where someone on your 'side' has one-lined RP and initiated PvP, at which point you as their ally (and their allies) are immediately forced to join the melee. I actually ended up reporting myself over this one because it was just so horrible for the people on the other end.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have also reported players, and then in conversations with other players found out "Oh yes, I reported that guy too last week!" at least two or three times after the fact, and found the reported player is still active and doing the exact same thing. Whether that guy was being 'coached' in response, and was able to smile, nod to the time-pressed DM and promise to improve, then carry on - or if the reports were judged to be invalid (See letter of the law above), I don't know.

Perhaps the solution is more transparency on rules enforcement (Not on particular cases but the process involved), more DMs, or just stricter rules, but I can see where OP is coming from in that you feel powerless to act. You don't know how rules are being enforced, and even if we had a player vote on if we should tighten a particular rule, it would likely not change as the server isn't a democracy.

[DM Wraith]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to speak on behalf of the DM side here (and my own experience) and hopefully it will provide some clarity to this.

First, not everyone can, should, or desires to be a Dungeon Master. It has, at least in my experience, had some of the highest highs, but also the lowest lows. Dealing with rule breaks and etcetera is never fun, but a needed part of our duties as a DM. With that in mind, that is why we have the vetting process that exists in the format of DM interview's when positions open up. This ensures level headed and impartial folks are brought on to ensure fair oversight and arbitrate the circumstances we're confronted with.

Regarding rule breaches or perceived rule breaches. This is something wherein often we need time to address it appropriately so that we can interview folks regarding the situation, as well as confirm via logs, and take into account past behaviors. From there, our job is to compile the information, and then address the issue. Now sometimes, rules are simply not broken, when they are broken there are many factors that play into this and this can mitigate or exacerbate the issue at hand. And he's a key point i'd like to reiterate and ask everyone that reads this to please be mindful of. When punishment is administered it is in confidentiality; we do not discuss players cases with anyone but that player. Transparency in that aspect, frankly won't happen as the desire for wanting to know someone's been punished is understood, its not a healthy desire. What this allows for is whether it's a ban, MoD, rpr drop, xp drop, or etc. this allows each player the privacy to not be ridiculed by others and to move on past the situation; if the behavior continues simply know it will be addressed. Just because you don't see a ban happening on every offense doesn't mean something isn't or hasn't happened and if we were banning constantly, we wouldn't have much of a player base. The goal here is to hopefully see necessary changes implemented and help each member of our community to be better. Sometimes this is more challenging due to a variety of factors such as a new player to role play, a young player, English second language folks, and a myriad of other things that all can affect how this is addressed.

At the end of the day, remember we are a community. This place we all find enjoyment in, a community of collaborative narrative builders wouldn't exist without each member of it. I guess what I am saying is simply, while it can be frustrating not knowing what's happening, know that your reports are being addressed as they come in.

Cheers,
DM Wraith

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

You know, this comes up every once in a while so while I haven't posted about it I have put some thought into it, and I think there is a flaw in the logic in the people that feel they need some sort of confirmation that something was done about their issue. The reality is that once something bad happens in game, nothing is going to change that. It already happened, and the only thing left to do is report it and move on. Reports should really be to try and help make sure that this doesn't continue to happen, not make up for the aggravation you experienced or whatever, and I think its actually more important that the team notify you that they didn't find any rule breaks then to keep you informed of what happened with punishments and stuff. I get the instinct, someone pissed you off and you want to hear they got theirs for it, but its not healthy to think about it in that way for you or the community imo.

[DangerDolphin]

I get the instinct, someone pissed you off and you want to hear they got theirs for it, but its not healthy to think about it in that way for you or the community imo.

That's immensely cynical and I don't think most people think that way.

The reason they want a response is that if you don't get one and still see the same person in game doing their thing, people start to assume that the rules are generally not enforced, or there is some kind of favouritism going on, which will lead them to either stop playing on the server, or in the worst case adopt that behaviour themselves as it seems to be possible to get away with it.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I get the instinct, someone pissed you off and you want to hear they got theirs for it, but its not healthy to think about it in that way for you or the community imo.

That's immensely cynical and I don't think most people think that way.

The reason they want a response is that if you don't get one and still see the same person in game doing their thing, people start to assume that the rules are generally not enforced, or there is some kind of favouritism going on, which will lead them to either stop playing on the server, or in the worst case adopt that behaviour themselves as it seems to be possible to get away with it.

After reading through the thread again I can see why you think my statement is cynical, but based on previous threads on this topic I think your assessment needs to be downgraded from immensely to slightly. But even if you can't bring yourself to make the change, at least pick another word. Immensely easily makes the top ten list of the worst words of the English Language.