Branch Topic: Scrying

[xanrael]

I'd consider just giving scry the P&P treatment. Make it an actual spell, add a will save component and other spells to block scrying. Give spell focuses in divination bonuses to either the will save or penetrating anti-scry spells/locations, or both.

This was in the original draft but removed because people tend to use scry as a gank tool and for outing low level necromancers/warlocks instead of to listen in on roleplay.

We won't be adding ways to penetrate scry protection unless it's reworked to hide location information (In which case we can also extend duration, make it possible to cancel, etc)

Please break off into another thread to discuss scrying any further, and focus on other aspects of specialist wizards here for now, so we don't derail Xerah's thread. Thanks!

Have you considered adding an option for an "audio" (text) only version? Where it would create something like the invisible object that records what you say for messages. The change would be that it would record anyone who spoke in the area then at the end of the duration/max message length it would spawn the results in the inventory of the one scrying?

That would keep the location secret barring someone saying something incriminating and prevent the one scrying from being locked in place because they zoned as you started the scry etc. Not saying replace the old option with something like that, but make it a different choice.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Trying to play a rogue and do rogue things like start a thieves guild or do shady business is not fun, because improved invisibility from wand lasts 7 minutes. The entire problem is scrying, because the moment you start getting your name out there or trying to lead a group, people will begin scrying you. Scrying pierces disguises, so if I'm ever disguised or stealthing around places I shouldn't be, I need improved invisibility on to protect myself. To do any kind of cloak and dagger RP, I feel like I need to be a caster if I want to actually lead anything. I would like more ways to combat scrying on mundane characters. Reliable ways, not reliant on a will save. Because rogues have low will save. If improved invisibility can be pierced with a will save, it might as well kill the rogue class for cloak and dagger.

[IanPatron]

As someone who plays a character with little combat skill who focused on scrying, I'd say these new rules to scrying sucks. I can live with it and will continue playing of course, but it derails the entire purpose of my character: scrying.

There's no point in complaining about being scried on now since it'll be for two minutes.... every ten minutes. And this can be blocked by a simple imp invis(and I'm sorry but, any rogue that wants to lead and doesn't have a way to use imp invis shouldn't lead... I mean it's not difficult to get)

Why should mundane characters be able to block a mage devoted to divination from scrying them? That makes no sense.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

It lasts 7 minutes. Meetings take a long time. It's really not fun having to cast improved invisibility every 7 minutes on multiple people for an hour.

[IanPatron]

Ok, so you're casting imp invis constantly, and the many epic mages are spending spell components to scry.

I'm sorry I just don't see why mundane characters should be able to bypass being scried by epic mages with ESF divination. Mind you I'm just basing this off the many forgotten realms books I read where drow Matrons and mages scry left and right and do in fact get good information from it.

The ten minute cooldown should be enough of a nerf. I disagree with the nerf entirely.

I mean, what logical reason should excuse anyone short of using wards to block scrying with no wards at all and no ability to create wards?...

unless the devs create a new warding spell that is wandable perhaps.

[Beard Master Flex]

I've been playing spies on Arelith for almost a decade and haven't really ever been bothered by scrying at all. I cant think of many stealth based builds that wont have access to UMD for Invis wands, from a good vendor they come with 30+ charges for only a few thousand gold, thats hours of protection in a style of adventure that benefits from brevity and the thrill of almost or being caught.

With creativity it can be done without and if you dont want to go that route its pretty reasonably affordable from an early level.

[Dalenger]

imo scryers already have it really tough. You have to invest 3 feats (one epic) in a sub-optimal tree in order to scry for 2 minutes out of every 10, until you either run out of rest or piety/components. This math is already pretty shitty. If a meeting takes 1 hour, then at most they are able to scry for 10 minutes of it... and that assumes that they started at nearly -100% rest to begin. Now, add onto that that they can be countered by any mundane with a imp-invis wand, or any caster with imp-invis (which'll last a lot longer than the wands), or any epic abjurer (which is a much more optional and common feat tree than divination in the first place). Like, srsly, if you're getting scryed on you're literally not trying at all. Buy a few of an incredibly common wand, ask your wizard buddy to prepare a few extended imp invises, find an abjur budy who doesn't mind popping his -ward_teleport before your meeting, go to one of the many scry-proof areas on the server, etc etc etc.

Srsly, thinkink about how much of a pain it is to actually get your money's worth out of -scry. AT BEST, for the trouble of knowing who would be at the super-epic-important-meeting-of-all-the-enemies and when it'd be happening, AFKing down to -90% rest, collecting all your components, then making sure you are online for it to start... you maybe get a few 2-minute glimpses into a conversation which might have something relevant to spy about, but in all likelihood will just end up watching people standing there waiting for someone else to type.

Mind you I'm just basing this off the many forgotten realms books I read where drow Matrons and mages scry left and right and do in fact get good information from it.

The ten minute cooldown should be enough of a nerf. I disagree with the nerf entirely.

And I couldn't agree more. Scrying is a huge part of a wizard/spellcaster's arsenal, and plays a huge part in FR lore.

Have you considered adding an option for an "audio" (text) only version? Where it would create something like the invisible object that records what you say for messages.

I would be all for this. Hit the caster with a blindness spell so -scry can't be used just to go around and gank lowbis, but allow the caster to listen in on conversations for 10 minutes. Sounds like a win-win.

[Kuma]

As someone who plays a character with little combat skill who focused on scrying, I'd say these new rules to scrying sucks. I can live with it and will continue playing of course, but it derails the entire purpose of my character: scrying.

hyper-reliance on a singular mechanical aspect of a character is something i'd recommend avoiding as best practice. it'd be weird if someone was dedicated solely to send illusions, or dedicated solely to pickpocketing, or quarter breaking, to the extent that they felt stymied on a character-harming level by adjustments to that mechanic; scrying shouldn't be different.

[Red_Wharf]

I would not shed a single tear if scrying was outright removed from the server, but I don't think it should, however it is simply to easy to bust anyone trying to do anything shady because they, oops, forgot to buy an improved invisibility wand. Scrying is a powerful ability, not just mechanically, but roleplaying-wise too, it should be handled with care and so I think casters should have to put a little more effort in order to use it. Add a will save to the spell and make it more lore-friendly to the 3.5 edition: Wizards, Sorcerers, and Bards have to interact with a mirror, Clerics with a font of holy water, and Druids with a natural pool of water.

[xanrael]

As far as timing goes, a meeting could be about 90% not super secret stuff (perhaps even a bit of misinformation) then a sweep + anti-scry can be done before a focused bit. Or just hand over a note in writing.

Heck on that note, I've had spy type characters that have used "dead drops" and cyphers before. Even if they have the message in hand it's not breakable without another piece of info like bribing a co-conspirator (yay RP interaction), stealing a very specific item, or some serious work.

Generally though I operate under the idea that I expect and even want 75-90% of the info to leak and be acted upon as that creates tension and RP. Setting my expectations properly and managing it goes a long way to having fun for me at least.

[Gouge Away]

hyper-reliance on a singular mechanical aspect of a character is something i'd recommend avoiding as best practice. it'd be weird if someone was dedicated solely to send illusions, or dedicated solely to pickpocketing, or quarter breaking, to the extent that they felt stymied on a character-harming level by adjustments to that mechanic; scrying shouldn't be different.

This advice is good in most cases but doesn't always apply. A divination wizard is entirely about scrying. Illusionists and rogues have dozens of spells and tricks up their sleeves, Diviners... scry. If you take that as your wizard specialty it's going to be at or near the top of the list of your character's defining traits because you're not getting anything else of much value from that school.

[Kuma]

hyper-reliance on a singular mechanical aspect of a character is something i'd recommend avoiding as best practice. it'd be weird if someone was dedicated solely to send illusions, or dedicated solely to pickpocketing, or quarter breaking, to the extent that they felt stymied on a character-harming level by adjustments to that mechanic; scrying shouldn't be different.

This advice is good in most cases but doesn't always apply. A divination wizard is entirely about scrying. Illusionists and rogues have dozens of spells and tricks up their sleeves, Diviners... scry. If you take that as your wizard specialty it's going to be at or near the top of the list of your character's defining traits because you're not getting anything else of much value from that school.

except the entirety of a wizard's regular toolkit and as many epic spell focuses as you want on top of that, item creation, et cetera

i don't buy this one

[Gouge Away]

Fair enough. If you choose not to understand why a divination specialist wizard would value scrying I don't think there's any point in going further here.

[Kuma]

Fair enough. If you choose not to understand why a divination specialist wizard would value scrying I don't think there's any point in going further here.

thats not what im saying at all. of course they'd value it.

however, what i am saying is that;

As someone who plays a character with little combat skill who focused on scrying, I'd say these new rules to scrying sucks. I can live with it and will continue playing of course, but it derails the entire purpose of my character: scrying.

is ignoring that the chassis on which access to scrying is based on isn't exactly lacking for character-defining and empowering powers and abilities

EDIT: Also, Feeblemind and PWs got buffed and their specialisation bonuses are dope anyway. i don't think specialisation is meant to provide specialists in a particular school the ability to rely on that specialisation to the exclusion of all else. it's just a trade-off.

[Nitro]

Rogues inherently have bad will saves. It is extremely painful trying to do cloak and dagger on a rogue because of a 7 minute timer on imp invis wands, you're proposing that rogues can not do cloak and dagger anymore. To do cloak and dagger RP, you need to be able to have secrets. And if you think that people don't learn things from scrying, you've never seen peoples' notebooks full of scry spy records, you've never watched people gang up together to scry every name they know. Running a thieves guild on a rogue means people are going to learn your name and scry you all the time. And scrying can penetrate disguises, so that's not even an option either.

Continuing out conversation from the other thread. I did suggest in the very post you replied to the addition of a nondetection spell to foil scrying, with epic diviners being able to penetrate audio (chatlog) only. Then you can double down on the cloak and dagger by saying things indirectly, using ciphers or learning obscure languages for your faction to have meetings in secret. Heck, since it's audio only it doesn't even need to deliver the disguised name in the log, it can just submit the name you scried on.

[Skarain]

Trying to play a rogue and do rogue things like start a thieves guild or do shady business is not fun, because improved invisibility from wand lasts 7 minutes. The entire problem is scrying, because the moment you start getting your name out there or trying to lead a group, people will begin scrying you. Scrying pierces disguises, so if I'm ever disguised or stealthing around places I shouldn't be, I need improved invisibility on to protect myself. To do any kind of cloak and dagger RP, I feel like I need to be a caster if I want to actually lead anything. I would like more ways to combat scrying on mundane characters. Reliable ways, not reliant on a will save. Because rogues have low will save. If improved invisibility can be pierced with a will save, it might as well kill the rogue class for cloak and dagger.

I'll chime in a few thoughts.

A Rogue who takes 5 Loremaster is able to take Secret of Scry and Secret of Warding. The later allows you to block scrying, for when you want to have a protected meeting. The former alerts you when you're being scried upon, which allows you to be aware and provide missleading information (exception Specialist Diviners, but those are fewer than Diviners in general). Imp. Invis wands also last longer with LM wand CL increase.

In our present day "meta", a Rogue/Loremaster seems like the best "Rogue" to do Cloak & Dagger with. Sure, you sacrifice some of your combat power for it, but if you meant to do Cloak & Dagger, maybe you did not plan to be a PvE beast anyways.

In a Thieves Guild like faction I am a part of, we solved "meeting scrying" by having Trickery Clerics (Imp Invis) and Bards (Walz of the Magic Masquerade) for scry-protection. Worked fine for our longer meetings. Also as said, Warded rooms such as in Dis also works. In a Thief Group Setting, you can try to ensure you have a Bard, Trickery Cleric or a Wizard to counter Scry when going out and about together.

PS: Unrelated to the topic, but we're always on lookout for others wanting to join thieving schananigans. Send a PM or poke in Discord.


But..... since this is a new Thread and a Branch to discuss Scrying, what are the thoughts on the Duration of Scry?

1 minutes vs. 2 minutes vs. ( 4 minutes, Specialist Diviners)

10 min cd vs. ~less CD for Specialist Diviners?

If the cooldown of scry is resetting with rest, then that needs to be fixed.

Resting resets Scry timer (like other ESF's) vs. Not Reseting, have to wait 10 minutes.

Related to this, scrying removes all buffs you currently have on yourself. In other words, if you aim to be scrying consistently, you'll have to go "naked" with 0 wards and just follow your companions around (say, if on a hunt for someone). Leaves you extremely vulnerable but "eyes in the sky" is a tactical advantage. Still, thoughts?

[-XXX-]

Divination in its current form definitely has its place. It represents the means of attacking characters from an unconventional angle and I can see how that can make some players feel uncomfortable, but I think that it's necessary.
ESF:div might not be on par with other ESFs in terms of raw mechanical power, but it interferes with those who'd aim to mess with other characters while trying to evade confrontation and consequences indefinitely (avoiding confrontation could be seen as a method of negating all the other ESFs coincidentally).

Furthermore, even a diviner coordinating a "gank squad", while not exactly a prime example of stellar RP and the feat's best use, ~does~ enable much more character interaction and RP than (for example) an evoker dropping a hellball on someone.


IMO mechanically scrying is OK atm. The cooldown might feel a little oppressive at times, but it's reasonable. An option for the diviner to actively adjust the scrying duration might have been very helpful, but this has been brought up already, and isn't such a big deal IMO.

I think that rather than scrying itself, the means of blocking it might need getting looked at. The last tweaks to scrying could be perceived as a nerf, furthermore warded areas have been introduced to the module. I'm not saying that only abjurers should be able to block scrying, but the low level spell method of scry blocking might use getting looked at.

[TooManyPotatoes]

I'll chime in a few thoughts.

A Rogue who takes 5 Loremaster is able to take Secret of Scry and Secret of Warding. The later allows you to block scrying, for when you want to have a protected meeting. The former alerts you when you're being scried upon, which allows you to be aware and provide missleading information (exception Specialist Diviners, but those are fewer than Diviners in general). Imp. Invis wands also last longer with LM wand CL increase.

As far as i know scry secret doesnt let you know when you are being scryed. That is only if you took the relevant spell foci. The secret is purely for the scry ability without the foci bonuses.

[Skarain]

As far as i know scry secret doesnt let you know when you are being scryed. That is only if you took the relevant spell foci. The secret is purely for the scry ability without the foci bonuses.

I tested this out with a Loremaster friend of mine. That's how I know it works the way it does. He gets notified when he is scried upon.

[TooManyPotatoes]

As far as i know scry secret doesnt let you know when you are being scryed. That is only if you took the relevant spell foci. The secret is purely for the scry ability without the foci bonuses.

I tested this out with a Loremaster friend of mine. That's how I know it works the way it does. He gets notified when he is scried upon.

I stand corrected! I wonder if that's intended behaviour?

[Security_Blanket]

As the player of a Divination focused character, I'm fine with the cooldown, but if it has to be in place then remove the need to rest in between uses. If not, then give Diviners more cookies in one form or another, for one, actually give them spells to cast. Wizards/Sorcerers have a few spells that can benefit from the +6 to DC that they receive for their investment though not a lot. Clerics/Favored Souls have zero options beyond True Seeing and the very niche Detect Poison. Shamans get it for free which is almost like a cruel joke, because you know full well they're receiving no real mechanical benefit from it.

[AstralUniverse]

There's nothing I can said that wasnt said already.

I dont like Scry. I think 9/10 times it *ockblocks RP rather then enable it and I have no intention to ever play a scrier myself or spend a lot of RP sessions with people to scry daily on others and use it to shut them out.

[Deryliss]

Likewise, I'm not a fan of scrying... I understand it needs to exist, and it's a part of the information warfare landscape, but ever since finding out about -ward I will always take ESF: Abj or Secret of Warding on any character I can do so on.

I hope a decent balance can be found that allows counterplay while making scriers feel like they have a place, but having had plots destroyed in other PWs by scrying or DMs using 'oracles' to relay information to the opposite side to spark conflict I'm super wary of anything like this.

[IanPatron]

We are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum.

Scry to me was one of the best game mechanics this server had. Most of all my characters were based on scrying, and it can generate lots of fun and paranoia. There's nothing more exciting then scrying the right person at the right moment for them to actually be talking about killing you(I have seen this before)

Worse yet is that my newest character was an underpowered mage who would rely on scry to make her somewhat valuable. Now my whole character concept is lost. I have to shelf that character because they're underpowered, and the one tool that made them worthwhile is gone. Two minutes every ten minutes is simply useless, especially if your character doesn't know the whole geography of Arelith. So it can't even be used to garner a location of where your target is at.

This nerf really bums me out, because the majority of my characters weren't powerbuilds but great at RP for their knowledge of RP events.

The only way this mechanic will be useful is if six mages with scry gather together and consistently scry a target and share the information. Let's be honest, the scry, rest, repeat route was what made scry great. Unfortunately I don't have access to five other epic mages as a slave character.

So I am shelving this character(not deleting) until one of two things happen: 1. The ten minute cooldown goes away(which won't happen because I know the dev/dm team doesn't make these changes without discussing it at length) or 2. The time of scrying is adjusted to at least five minutes(which should be a possibility, considering scry should be something that doesn't just flash before your eyes and done just anywhere but at scrying devices with time and effort put into it)

[Xerah]

I love scry as a mechanic. I based an entire character around it and the concept would have fallen a bit flat without it. That said, the amount I scryed on that character was extremely low. I might have done it once a RL day on average.

There have been some really poor "be nice" uses that get tossed around that would be solved if people could "be nice". No, you don't need to scry and watch someone trying to join the Guard force, for example. People want perfect information and perfect defence but neither of those things is a good thing (you should invite OOCly known harpers into your evil group if there is no IC reason not to).

The 10 minute cooldown is not a huge deal. It is a huge deal if you were drinking and chain scrying because that kind of violates the intent of the ability (or doing anything to "game" the resting/limits of the ability).