Feedback on the Commoner Class

[Skald Haldi]

I took a break for a while, so this class is brand new for me. I've reached level 22, and I've enjoyed myself so far. As such, here's various feedback organized by topic. This is going to be long and rambling, but I hope it will be useful to DMs tweaking it or players who are thinking about trying it out.

Overall: HUGE thank you to whichever DM or Dev implemented this class. I really enjoy this side of the game - and I've tried to play the same concept in the past without sufficient mechanics to back them up.

Adventure XP: Really smart. In fact, I wish ALL the classes worked only on adventure XP. It encourages better RP, because there's no point in killing stuff endlessly. Likewise, you get (almost) the same benefits whether you kill it all or just sneak by. *hears the silent screams of many players* Fine... whatever...

Awards: Umm... what? I had a normal award waiting, but... what can I do with it? I suppose I could play a noble commoner? *laugh* Or play a good monster race or something? Lowering my ECL would have zero effect, right? Perhaps increase a commoner's RPR payout instead of ECL if you add an ECL award to the character?

Build Plans: There's only one. 20 commoner, 10 specialist. There's no reason to ever go 21+ commoner. Specialist is all perks, no disadvantages. Not sure what to suggest, but maybe 21+ commoner should get their own special perks so you have to make a hard choice? Alternately, make specialist an option earlier for commoners but DON'T give the trade point bonus if they go that way.

Crafting: It's simple to hit the breakpoints on one craft. Level 10, and you have 50 in whichever craft you like. This assumes you take the craft gift which costs nothing (because ECL doesn't matter). I wish there were some items with higher breakpoints because you really have no other choice but to take multiple specialties. So then, you become your own supplier, beholden to none. Which is bad for an RP community. This is not a simple problem, so it would take a big overhaul to crafting in general.

Mastery: This is part of the problem mentioned above. There's no reason to depend on anyone else. Intermediate components are easier for a master to make themselves, so why would they ever take on apprentices? On the other hand, most intermediates are so easy and fast to make that it doesn't matter anyway. A single craft point in each category is often all you need. Later, you can add more, but that's optional. A good exception to the rule is the catalysts. Those work well and are hot items BECAUSE they are viable products as intermediates. I wish glass and ingots and cloth (and wood?) worked the same way. Again, not a simple problem, so it would take a big overhaul.

Piety: At first, I tried taking a K&I deity - but I quickly realized you just don't get enough -> 0.1% per craft point spent? I was losing piety while waiting for craft points to return, so a god-save would cost 250+ craft points spent. At first, I prayed a LOT. Later, switched to a War deity to kill things for the purpose of piety more than loot. Yes, there's secondary aspects, but certain races don't get choices that are even possible for a commoner to do. Magic? No. Trickery? Only if you wear a dumb disguise or dump cross-class skill points into stealth. Maybe piety for K&I should be multiplied by the DC? Maybe it already is and I didn't give it long enough?

Combat: Despite disadvantages, the commoner is not shabby. Given the right feats and gear, you can solo zones for lower level players. This makes resource gathering possible at higher levels, but lower levels are scary! The first few days in game, I spent scavenging crates around town struggling to make ends meet. For a while, I was worried I'd have trouble feeding myself. This is COOL - and it really felt great in a rags-to-riches story. Especially since it was a town I didn't know, so I didn't know all the tricks (yet).

Grouping: Above, I mentioned soloing. Logically, solo is all you can do. Since your level-to-power ratio is way off, you'll steal XP from any group (and ruin writs) without giving anything real back. Mechanically, they'd be better off without you. Yes, good players will RP a quest with you, and enjoy having you there, but I can't help but feel guilty about it.

Resources: Above, I mentioned lower level zones. I must feel like a jerk to those low-level players. I come in, steal the XP, steal the resources, and ruin the spawns. They must be thinking "why are you here? Go somewhere else you high-level jerk". Since I'm playing team evil, my character doesn't care at all. But again, as a player, I feel guilty about it.

Rare resources: Yeah, no. I guess that's what money is for, but nobody wants to sell except at insane prices. I can't make a profit at those margins, so it's not happening. In other words, although I may get some on loan to work for someone, I'll never be able to display the best items that I could make in my own shop.

Shops: Permanent shops are the dream, but that's true for everybody. Unfortunately, without a permie, the rental shops are an absolute necessity for commoners. However, they are also really stressful. I get into RP, but I have to constantly watch the clock and duck out to go manage my shop. In fact, I've stood talking right in front of my shop for so long that it has expired before. Scary! Maybe don't lose time on temp shops as long as you are in the same zone? If so, you could lower the timer to much less than an hour. That would also encourage people to STAY near their temporary shops. Now, if only there was something similar you could do to the permie shop campers... but that's a big hard question.

RP advice: I built a character background with the goal of rags-to-riches. However, that is a very easy goal to reach. I hit 1M gold somewhere around level 16. RP-wise, that plan was complete. If you're going to play a commoner, you need to have big story goals that are unreachable. Sure, you can make them later, but that may be difficult to tack on afterwards. Everybody wants to be recognized for mechanics too, but there's nothing in the commoner class set that mechanically sets you apart from anyone else. You get to craft the hard stuff EARLIER, but it's the same hard stuff the long-term players can craft just as well as you.

[Quidix]

Having played commoners a lot, I broadly agree. I like the experience, but there are many, often small, changes that could make it much better. My main issues are:

(1) All commoners are the same (skill monkeys) - opening more different types of commoners would be great. The easiest way to solve that would be to allow commoner cross-classing. What prevents someone born a commoner to train a fighter, or train in singing to become a bard, or to study to become a lore master? (a commoner cross classing would always be inferior anyway vs the real deal, so I struggle to understand the reluctance to this)

(2) Crafting bonus broadly discourages RP rather than create it as one can just create all inputs oneself. Real, meaningful, mastery benefits would be far more interesting (like some recipes with DC 80), as there would be reason to seek out a master.

(3) Levelling is slow and one-sided, and encourages 'hanging about'. Introducing more ways to gain XP through crafting, exploration or deliveries would be great (rather than just building a pool of adventure xp that will never get used).

[xanrael]

I'd be against commoner-only level craft DCs as I'd rather commoner be an optional thing as opposed to feel required in crafting high tier items. I'm not sure there is the number of active commoners across the Surface/UD/other and every tradeskill to really facilitate this anyway.

Could see delivery writs being a thing commoners should be able to take.

[Skarain]

I remember when Ixin (commoner kobold) was playing, he had a sign set up in the hub in where he listed rare resources and the buy prices. Usually next to the temporary shop that was his normal one.

Someone is bound to take notice and be interested of selling things they come across. Especially rare resources you can't sell to vendors or district stockpiles.

[Quidix]

I'd be against commoner-only level craft DCs as I'd rather commoner be an optional thing as opposed to feel required in crafting high tier items. I'm not sure there is the number of active commoners across the Surface/UD/other and every tradeskill to really facilitate this anyway.

Probably fair, though the same could be used as an argument against racial crafts (like Kobold tailor, elven smiths, 'wild' tailors, Duergar art crafters), and it is not deemed as an issue there given how many of such recipes exist (and several of those are 'best in slot' for some builds).

A compromise could be a DC of 80, as such recipes could be created close-to-safely with divine intervention for someone with 61+ points invested (ie it can be done for non-commoners). Progression of CP would be slow for non-commoners, but it would be possible.

[ReverentBlade]

I've never understood why you can't take a little Commoner or Specialist to boost your crafting. Seems like it comes with a built-in balance tradeoff because the classes don't fight well.

[AstralUniverse]

Probably fair, though the same could be used as an argument against racial crafts (like Kobold tailor, elven smiths, 'wild' tailors, Duergar art crafters), and it is not deemed as an issue there given how many of such recipes exist (and several of those are 'best in slot' for some builds).

A compromise could be a DC of 80, as such recipes could be created close-to-safely with divine intervention for someone with 61+ points invested (ie it can be done for non-commoners). Progression of CP would be slow for non-commoners, but it would be possible.

I have to disagree there. Commoner shouldnt be a necessity in the setting to get stuff done. I wouldnt like to be in a situation that an entire faction cannot make certain items because they lack.... commoners. It's really not the same thing as racial recipes. Kobold, for example, SHOULD be a necessity in the setting to get draconic armors done.

As for 80 DC items.... What kind of item would that be? A nuclear reactor or something? Real talk tho, it would have to be a very VERY magical/divine/special and it would look strange if out of all wizards, bards and loremasters, Commoners would become the most suitable and knowledgeable crafters of such things. Commoner should remain cheap, efficient, common, work labor who can work *fast* and do a lot of common things.

[Flower Power]

Holding the dubious honor of being the first person to get a Commoner to L30 (RIP, Ed Sorrel), I agree with a lot of the points: except for those relating to adventuring and dungeoneering.

Commoners are actually really good at adventuring, especially if you have the chops to stick with it until you become the rare Fortunate Commoner and can start taking Specialist levels to pick up things like Open Lock/Disarm Trap, UMD, etc.

You aren't going to be going toe-to-toe, but you can contribute a lot more than people expect through intelligent use of wands/scrolls; you also bring lots of Search, Appraise and Leadership to the party - which can easily triple (or more) the monetary gain of any adventuring party just by adding you to it (Leadership also gives Commoners the ability to add small buffs to the rest of their party passively.) And rune chests? Bashing them is a thing of the past, when you have a commoner on tap.

Commoners start off being really useful to drag out on adventures for their appraise-search-leadership, and only get turbocharged once they can deal with chests/racks and use wands in epic levels. They're pretty good.

And all that's ontop of their unparalleled ability to be business magnates. The tax revenue from Ed Sorrel's businesses alone accounted for almost 10% of Cordor's total revenue stream when I was playing him.

[Kuma]

Awards: Umm... what? I had a normal award waiting, but... what can I do with it? I suppose I could play a noble commoner?

Despite being a perfect fit for an Aristocrat class, Commoners can't take the Noble gift.

I do think that should be changed, though.

let them do courier writs pls

[LichBait]

I have a level 30 commoner/Specialist myself. I wouldn't mind seeing a perk for going more commoner. Courier writs would help the leveling.

I think the RP in commoner is in the item/material delivery and making supplier connections. There are a lot of things that a commoner can't really get themselves so being a jack of many crafts kind of expands that RP circle of suppliers so I think the focus on broad crafting is fine, and kind of a boon there.

The only crafting thing I would change is have commoners ignore racial/class restrictions for equipment creation, as their focus on crafting is so high.

[ReverentBlade]

I think Nobles -should- be able to take commoner and specialist. The stereotypical wimpy noble that thinks adventuring is dirty is absolutely well-suited to the Commoner/Specialist kit.

You could do even do something like, taking the Noble award on a commoner immediately raises you to level ten to represent being particularly educated due to your background, so you can skip a good chunk of the grind.

We've already set that sort of precedent with the Guldorand Start, we're probably safe to iterate (downwards) on that idea.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm not against opening Commoner to noble, but then we'd probably have to change the name from Commoner to something else at that point. Merchant... or something...

[Quidix]

I have to disagree there. Commoner shouldnt be a necessity in the setting to get stuff done. I wouldnt like to be in a situation that an entire faction cannot make certain items because they lack.... commoners. It's really not the same thing as racial recipes. Kobold, for example, SHOULD be a necessity in the setting to get draconic armors done.

As for 80 DC items.... What kind of item would that be? A nuclear reactor or something? Real talk tho, it would have to be a very VERY magical/divine/special and it would look strange if out of all wizards, bards and loremasters, Commoners would become the most suitable and knowledgeable crafters of such things. Commoner should remain cheap, efficient, common, work labor who can work *fast* and do a lot of common things.

Non-commoners can both make and progress against a DC=80 craft (at close to 100% creation success) if they invest a full 70 points, so there is no must for a commoner. Also, it's not a must for factions for have someone able to make every craft, trade between factions happen (it's not like everyone has an elven smith, or a kobold tailor).

DC has no direct link to "level of magic" as far as I know. To me, it simply represent a a masterful level of workmanship, which anyone can have (and let's remember barbarians can craft anything and get dweomercrafting too).

I think 'commoner' can be interpreted in many different ways. One of them is a merchant, one of them is a master crafter, one is a barmaid, one is a poet, one is a jack of all trades. I think all are okay ways to RP and play a commoner (including a master crafter). I suppose my question is, why must all commoners mechanically be forced into skill-monkey jack-of-trade crafters? Why is it more 'realistic' that a commoner is the world's best appraiser, scavenger, leader, lockpicker, lore, trapper than that they are a master of a craft?

I've been looking for a reason to make a 3rd commoner, but I'm far better off going for a bard / LM - they will be better at everything. Anyhow, I've made my points and should stop arguing, it is ultimately up to others.

[Blossom]

This is a bit out of left field but while I like the idea of playing commoners and peasant nobodies quite a bit the class isn't the least bit enticing to me. That's not the complaint... I don't expect everything in the game to appeal to me.

But it seems like the class should be "merchant" or "artisan" or something along those lines instead as it's almost entirely about being a tradesperson which is typically a cut above commoner in a medieval society and a class unto themselves.

I bring that up because I'd really like to see actual "commoner" as an alternative to noble instead and allow one access to perks in shady or low-class areas where nobles would never show their face. Including but not limited to hiring appropriate henchmen.

[Dalenger]

But it seems like the class should be "merchant" or "artisan" or something along those lines instead as it's almost entirely about being a tradesperson which is typically a cut above commoner in a medieval society and a class unto themselves.

I bring that up because I'd really like to see actual "commoner" as an alternative to noble instead and allow one access to perks in shady or low-class areas where nobles would never show their face. Including but not limited to hiring appropriate henchmen.

I agree with this 100%. I think the title "commoner" is really misleading. A "commoner" is not going to be walking around, crafting moon blades and adamantine armors. At the same time, I think its really strange that a "noble" is not its own class, if commoner/specialist are.

[Skald Haldi]

Commoners are actually really good at adventuring, especially if you have the chops to stick with it until you become the rare Fortunate Commoner and can start taking Specialist levels to pick up things like Open Lock/Disarm Trap, UMD, etc.

You aren't going to be going toe-to-toe, but you can contribute a lot more than people expect through intelligent use of wands/scrolls; you also bring lots of Search, Appraise and Leadership to the party - which can easily triple (or more) the monetary gain of any adventuring party just by adding you to it (Leadership also gives Commoners the ability to add small buffs to the rest of their party passively.) And rune chests? Bashing them is a thing of the past, when you have a commoner on tap.

Commoners start off being really useful to drag out on adventures for their appraise-search-leadership, and only get turbocharged once they can deal with chests/racks and use wands in epic levels. They're pretty good.

This is very important info that I wish I had understood before going in. Instead, I'm pretty much useless b/c I went in blind. Now that I'm level 22, it's too late to change where my skillpoints fall. Zero search, zero UMD, zero Lock Pick, no saved skill points.

My biggest request to the DMs (if they read this thread) - please please put this explanation word-for-word onto the wiki !!!

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Probably fair, though the same could be used as an argument against racial crafts (like Kobold tailor, elven smiths, 'wild' tailors, Duergar art crafters), and it is not deemed as an issue there given how many of such recipes exist (and several of those are 'best in slot' for some builds).

A compromise could be a DC of 80, as such recipes could be created close-to-safely with divine intervention for someone with 61+ points invested (ie it can be done for non-commoners). Progression of CP would be slow for non-commoners, but it would be possible.

I have to disagree there. Commoner shouldnt be a necessity in the setting to get stuff done. I wouldnt like to be in a situation that an entire faction cannot make certain items because they lack.... commoners. It's really not the same thing as racial recipes. Kobold, for example, SHOULD be a necessity in the setting to get draconic armors done.

As for 80 DC items.... What kind of item would that be? A nuclear reactor or something? Real talk tho, it would have to be a very VERY magical/divine/special and it would look strange if out of all wizards, bards and loremasters, Commoners would become the most suitable and knowledgeable crafters of such things. Commoner should remain cheap, efficient, common, work labor who can work *fast* and do a lot of common things.

Agreed!

[Nitro]

Commoners on Arelith are not actually commoners. A more apt name for the class would be artisan or something similar. The very notion of a level 30 commoner is somewhat ludicrous.

[Flower Power]

The very notion of a level 30 commoner is somewhat ludicrous.

Paul Bunyan.
John Barleycorn.
Johnny Appleseed.
John Henry.
Johnny Kaw.
Cap'n Stormalong.

Epic Commoners aren't legendary adventurers.
They're folk heroes.

[Blossom]

The very notion of a level 30 commoner is somewhat ludicrous.

Paul Bunyan.
John Barleycorn.
Johnny Appleseed.
John Henry.
Johnny Kaw.
Cap'n Stormalong.

Epic Commoners aren't legendary adventurers.
They're folk heroes.

Paul Bunyan? Half-giant axe weaponmaster/ranger with ox animal companion.
Johnny Appleseed? Monk with maxed out herbalism. Probably human, possibly a hin who chose to be “tall” at character creation.
John Henry? Aasimar weaponmaster with paladin dip for divine might.
Johnny Kaw? Evidently some made up Manhattan Kansas thing which itself sounds like a made-up town name.
Cap’n Stormalong? Half storm giant, oh, let’s say, barbarian, this is getting old.

and..

John Barleycorn? Master brewer, more evidence it should be “artisan” and not commoner.

(Please don’t take this reply too seriously).

[Irongron]

The very notion of a level 30 commoner is somewhat ludicrous.

I've been meaning to post something on this topic for some time - the whole level range of Arelith when compared to the Forgotten Realms thing...

A lot of D&D enthusiasts get put off by a level range that puts characters on a level with legendary creatures, even a goblin random NPC on Arelith can be level 15 or higher. A lot of other NwN servers cap at level 10 because of this.

But my view? NwN is a game with a lot of fun features and build possibilities when making characters. Limiting that due to some perceived contradiction with pen & paper sourcebooks just seems needlessly restrictive.

When asked about this, my reply is generally this - there is a rough conversion rate 1 to 3 when comparing Arelith levels with those of the Forgotten Realms. Thus, an extremely powerful demon/demi power might be CR 90 on Arelith, and a 30th level Arelithian warrior/commoner is equivalent to one of level 10 elsewhere in the Realms.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

The very notion of a level 30 commoner is somewhat ludicrous.

I've been meaning to post something on this topic for some time - the whole level range of Arelith when compared to the Forgotten Realms thing...

A lot of D&D enthusiasts get put off by a level range that puts characters on a level with legendary creatures, even a goblin random NPC on Arelith can be level 15 or higher. A lot of other NwN servers cap at level 10 because of this.

But my view? NwN is a game with a lot of fun features and build possibilities when making characters. Limiting that due to some perceived contradiction with pen & paper sourcebooks just seems needlessly restrictive.

When asked about this, my reply is generally this - there is a rough conversion rate 1 to 3 when comparing Arelith levels with those of the Forgotten Realms. Thus, an extremely powerful demon/demi power might be CR 90 on Arelith, and a 30th level Arelithian warrior/commoner is equivalent to one of level 10 elsewhere in the Realms.

There is something that can be done about this.

Most people in Faerun are around level 1 to 5ish and adventurers are between like 10 and 20

Potentially leaving the level cap

(Now this would likely mean cosmetic changes to summons)

Replace the summons cosmetically (same stats) with lower level equivelents

And most monsters we face in dungeons would still fall in line with that level range in any case

But effectively you could say a level 30 on arelith is the equivelent of a level 15 for the rest of the world. We just all happen to be very skilled.

For this purpose, say if you spawned elminster in hed be like level 45 by arelith standards but 25 in faerun standards.