Subdual and Money

[RedGiant]

Going to take my addition to your idea to a separate thread so as not to derail subdual reform, which I love.

Love most of it except the suggestions which arbitrarily restrict the actions of others that have nothing really to do with being subdued...such as the -yoink bit.

Nothing about being beaten up should prevent that. I know why you say that, but if someone is cheesing, report them. There are in game ways to prevent this already from warded cells to abjurers.

[godhand-]

My experience is generally subdual is avoided in group battles as people more often then not just get up and run or rejoin the fight. 1v1 or with city PC guards seems to be its primary area of use. That of trying to take prisoners.

This. So much this.

I honestly believe that the above occurs about 90% of the times i've seen subdual used when its more than 1v1. Often times when you send a tell the response is "i didnt know." So i politely inform them and don't report.....

I think this is easily solved with increasing subdual duration to say 5 minutes. perhaps even 10 is better. It also gives adequate time to rp with subdued person.
- Also allow the -forgive option which someone else suggested could shorten the subdual duration too.

[Arigard]

There definitely needs to be some changes to sub-dual. Every-time I've used it as a courtesy in PvP, 9/10 it's been abused in some way.

Either characters re-enter the fight the moment they stand up, use it as a chance to escape, or (especially if multiple characters are subdualled) i've seen the penalties waited out until the sub-dualled have outnumbered the subduallers and suddenly a new attack is sprung.

We see a lot of complaining about people getting corpse bashed in PvP, but this is the other side of the coin. It's a massive slap in the face as a player to use sub-dual, offer out an olive branch so that RP can continue without anyone really losing anything after conflict, only to see it (usually) thrown back in your face at the first opportunity.

[The GrumpyCat]

My experience is generally subdual is avoided in group battles as people more often then not just get up and run or rejoin the fight. 1v1 or with city PC guards seems to be its primary area of use. That of trying to take prisoners.

This. So much this.

I honestly believe that the above occurs about 90% of the times i've seen subdual used when its more than 1v1. Often times when you send a tell the response is "i didnt know." So i politely inform them and don't report.....

I think this is easily solved with increasing subdual duration to say 5 minutes. perhaps even 10 is better. It also gives adequate time to rp with subdued person.
- Also allow the -forgive option which someone else suggested could shorten the subdual duration too.

Given what was said elsewhere - perhaps yes a good option is to have the subdue last longer, but someone able to -forgive them to let them stand up - so they're not stuck on the floor or such.

it's an interesting idea anyway.

[Dr. B]

While Forgotten Realms / Arelith != medieval europe, it is heavily influenced by it. Penalties for theft at the time (and in some places even today, unfortunately) included extremes such as cutting off hands or death. Considering we can't mechanically cut your hands off, that leaves death. You can't put modern sensibilities on societies where duels to the death were a common way to settle minor disputes. Hell, even all the way in the late 1700s the US president (Andrew Jackson) was famous for the number of duels he fought, some of which were for things as minor as being insulted. If killing someone for an insult is acceptable, then imagine how people felt about theft.

With that said, I'd be totally on board with expanding subdual. As far as death weight, that comes down to being a team player and RPing well.

Tyr has strict laws about justice being fair and well-measured. A society that looks to Tyr's law will not randomly murder thieves. Instead, the thief will be apprehended and judged for why they stole, how they stole and how much. Furthermore, they will be judged by a separate person than the one who apprehended the criminal.

Tyr's law is further tempered by Ilmater's mercy, and while Tyr seeks to ensure kings and paupers are judged alike - he will be more lenient for someone stealing enough money to buy food or steal food directly. If one did so - they will be given forced labour in fair conditions in exchange for food, and encouraged to join the Triad's faith as a lay servant or monk in exchange for liberation from their poverty.

And while Torm is the most zealous, even he will look up to Tyr and Ilmater, and let justice be kind, merciful and fair.

Even Helm, who lacks Ilmater's mercy as something so very close, will likely hand off criminals to Tyr to resolve after performing his duty as a guardsman or watchman.

The only place you get violence on par of Earth are those that do not strive for Triadic or Helmite ideals - Luskan, a den of pirates, Mintarm, a den of privateers; and places that are ruled by banite ideology or at least lawful evil.

That's just a small subsection of the gods humanity reveres. The rest are NG/CG which, if you seek to be a good worshipper of - you will adhere to their dogma. And their dogma includes a respect for life and mercy almost always directly or indirectly.


And this is just looking at humanity.

For halflings, non-violent crime as long as it does not make the victim suffer for food (and thus violate Yondallan principles) is not an issue, and many of their legends concern their gods who stole from others - including Brandobaris who robbed Myrkul himself!

For elves, Erevan is a beloved god. And what does Erevan's clergy do? They engage in non-violent theft to ensure people don't get pompous and stuffy. Erevanites will avoid stealing things that would harm the victim (heirlooms, money to buy food, pay the landlord, gifts of sentimental values).


Forgotten Realms is honestly, as long as you stay away from places like the Moonsea's coasts, Amn, Calimshan and stick to Silverymoon/Waterdeep and the like is probably more progressive than most places on Earth when it comes to legal procedures.

And Amn's only issue is how freely bribes flow.

Thank you for this post. FR isn't a medieval Europe simulator. Bane, or perhaps evil worshipers of Hoar, might enact disproportionate punishments for thievery, but good deities aren't likely to. The "Medieval Europe" that people keep likening Arelith to is probably lawful evil-aligned by Forgotten Realms standards, or at best lawful neutral with lawful evil tendencies.

[Curve]

This assumes that the triad has some kind of monolithic hold on the morality of the day to day happenings in the realms. Like on earth there are false, greedy, bad and mean followers of religions that espouse altruistic beliefs. Maybe a paladin or cleric could have their spells taken away but every guard that wears a holy symbol of helm will face no divine intervention from going hard on a thief.

As much as trying to stay true to the forgotten realms is good, it can also be a weight around our roleplay when real world equivalents can be healthy influences too.

[DangerDolphin]

As much as trying to stay true to the forgotten realms is good, it can also be a weight around our roleplay when real world equivalents can be healthy influences too.

I guess for an Andunor enforcer it would make sense, but be weak narratively as you'd have to explain the old "why does Mask resurrect this low level thief who's not particularly religious from the dead each time he gets killed"

For any other settlement, murdering a thief is well... murder? That's grounds for an execution in most settlements AFAIK. I could perhaps see a noble getting away with it, but not a random adventurer.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

This assumes that the triad has some kind of monolithic hold on the morality of the day to day happenings in the realms. Like on earth there are false, greedy, bad and mean followers of religions that espouse altruistic beliefs. Maybe a paladin or cleric could have their spells taken away but every guard that wears a holy symbol of helm will face no divine intervention from going hard on a thief.

As much as trying to stay true to the forgotten realms is good, it can also be a weight around our roleplay when real world equivalents can be healthy influences too.

The gods and their faiths have a pretty far reach, and trying to appease the divinities for favour and securing a safe passage to afterlife is unlikely to be ignored by anyone bar perhaps the megalomaniacal wizards who seek immortality through lichdom or even divinity. Even if a guardsman does not serve Helm/Triad, unless they live in a place where alternative (usually chaotic/evil) exists, the guard will not want to possibly anger the clergies of faiths that favourably treat their type. Even ignoring afterlife, a guard that acts in accordance of triad/helm will have cheaper access to healing from clerics if injured, or perhaps even be able to leverage it for their family if they get sick.

Now, will there be False? Certainly. Especially amongst the uneducated, it's easy to twist justice and duty to evil. But such is unlikely to be the norm unless the settlement lacks clergy that proselytizes and teaches, rulers that promote faiths that encourage a stable and civil society. A guard here or there who secretly follows Bane and thinks Tyrrants are too lenient on beggars? Perfect contrast! Or not even a banite, just a guy who thinks Mask might be a quick way to get rich, so he joined the guards to help his thief buddies get away with crime and take bribes otherwise. Or some insane person who knows enough to cover it all up, but finds enjoyment in suffering.

But none of these are the norm in neutral/good areas. One has to remember that even before ToT, gods had a strong influence on how people live. After ToT, and the revelation of the wall and Ao's newer edicts? Faiths became far more tangible in a world where gods sat around in a circle and founded a secret order to keep banites out of their lands.


What I'm saying is... A guard in public in a city that welcomes paladins and has temples dedicated to Helm/Triad is unlikely to get away with murder and excessive violence. In an alleyway beating up beggars/criminals he thought got away lightly? Sure thing, but doesn't want it to get out because they'll get in trouble.

Places without such like Mintarn or Luskan will have "That medieval experience". On server, I think Sencliff/Freeport/Crow's Nest can count as settlements analogous to such? (Not sure on Freeport, due to how it has lax policing in general)

[Curve]

but be weak narratively as you'd have to explain the old "why does Mask resurrect this low level thief who's not particularly religious from the dead each time he gets killed"

I want to make it clear that I am not promoting killing pick pocketers. At odds I am typically in favor of any more substantive or fun reaction to such things. With that being said I also think that it is within the rules and promoted by the system for PvP to be the response. And so, like many things on Arelith, the best attitude to have is, "expect the most harsh response for doing anything and be pleasantly surprised when someone takes a different route." I apply this attitude to almost all things on the server and rarely feel angry or butthurt about in game happenings.

Things

I appreciate your position because it's well thought out and it helps me know my own position better.

Still, your position to me reads like every person in the forgotten realms has read the campaign setting. And while I think that the way you are saying people should interpret the world could be reasonable for a very small, educated, faithful and upper class swath of humanity (or demi-humanity) it over estimates the role of faith, and underestimates the many other factors that go into people's decision making processes.

There are a couple things you are missing, I think, in the way you are looking at people's actions and what drives them.

One is education. I think you overestimate how common knowledge some of the things you bring up would be in the realms. I have not read of a single school system, religious or secular, in the realms (outside of nobles being home schooled). I could be wrong and not know about them, but even if they do exist I really doubt that your average commoner has gone to them. I envision the average commoner's outlook on faith more akin to the average americans' "god is good. god likes good things. god dislikes bad things." I highly doubt that some poor slob on guard duty in Cordor is debating the deep cuts of faith just as much as I know the average american is not.

The second things are the other factions that guide a person's ethics and lack of ethics. Factors such as poverty or greed. Things such as being raised in a culture of violence, in honor societies, in a wack job culture and peer pressure, being in a dead end job, being tired or having a head ache, mad because their kids are a mess, maybe just having a bad day or a thousand other factors. This is how people work. They are not single issue actors, they are complicated animals who's actions are based off of a mind boggling number of little and big things, certainly not only their faith.

Like I said above, we should let the world of the forgotten realms influence who our characters are and how we see the setting around us. But, we should not exclude all the things we know about humanity and the world around us when we are envisioning Arelith or it's people.

[The GrumpyCat]

What I'm saying is... A guard in public in a city that welcomes paladins and has temples dedicated to Helm/Triad is unlikely to get away with murder and excessive violence. In an alleyway beating up beggars/criminals he thought got away lightly? Sure thing, but doesn't want it to get out because they'll get in trouble.

I'm... always a bit wary situations where guards are blames, In Arelith I mean - for excessive vilence/killing pickpockets. Even with the subdual system. The reasons being

a) Until recently, unless the player agreed to coperate, it was near impossible for some builds to 'subdue' a pickpocket or such without resorting to murder.
b) Even with the subdual system, because a player can still -relent a guard can still kill a pickpocketer. Now the -relent code is useful and neccesary, but it does create some... awkward situations.

So unless it's obvious that some sort of specific cruelty/brutalization/whatever is intended by the guards, I tend to find it a little cheep to start screaming of guard brutality for killing pickpockets. And I think most people agree with me there. it's not really fair to put the players in a position where they have to choose between either being accused of incompetence, or being a brutal police state. It's not a nice or fair thing to put them though.

[DangerDolphin]

b) Even with the subdual system, because a player can still -relent a guard can still kill a pickpocketer. Now the -relent code is useful and neccesary, but it does create some... awkward situations.

If I were a guard in that situation I would just RP they drank a vial of poison rather than be captured.

Although there are a few good uses for -relent, in this case it's essentially saying "I don't want to RP the consequences of this, gonna go respawn lol". After all, if you had to logoff you could send a tell to the guard asking if you could narratively explain your character was sent to jail and continue the RP with them later.

[Bunnysmack]

It's a little cumbersome, but to resolve the issue of IMMEDIATELY popping up subdualed enemies I tend to regularly carry a small stack of 10% weight lassos. Their duration, even on use-rope classes, is enough to make it so you usually won't have to be dealing with a revolving door of enemies. Flipsides to that coin is having to lasso a foe in the middle of a battlefield, which can be a biiiiiiit problematic.

Still, some mechanical features that require less cumbersome actions would be useful, to be sure.

[Zavandar]

"If I type -relent, you killed me" is a joke I've made a few times. It's cheesy, but we also shouldn't say what the other person did to die. Claiming they "drank poison" when they didn't type that is godmode-y. You beat someone within an inch of their life and sometimes they just go that extra inch once you're finished.

[-XXX-]

"If I type -relent, you killed me" is a joke I've made a few times. It's cheesy, but we also shouldn't say what the other person did to die. Claiming they "drank poison" when they didn't type that is godmode-y. You beat someone within an inch of their life and sometimes they just go that extra inch once you're finished.

While emoting for other characters is bad, the character can still claim they saw them do that (an obvious fabrication, but other characters might roll with it) or say that they assume that's what might have happened. Probably not the most elegant way to address an awkward situation, but yeah... characters can lie. Best not overthink this matter, eh?


On another note: what's a subdual and how do you equip it on IGMS?

[Zavandar]

Yes of course characters can lie but that wasn't the implication from the post I was referencing

[Kuma]

isnt rping suicide against the rules

[Archnon]

isnt rping suicide against the rules

Yes, which is why the relent command is a bit problematic and really needs to be RPed the first way, as a, 'hey things got out of hand there and now he is dead.'

[DangerDolphin]

As we don't have grappling or anything like that implemented, subdual is the only non-lethal way to subdue someone. So it seems even worse to make someone a murderer after they went to the trouble and risk of using subdual mode.

I do have to question if there is any legitimate usage of -relent in this case. It seems like a way to get the person who defeated you into trouble or avoid RP, and is essentially a suicide command as you (the subdued one) are using it.

[Nitro]

As we don't have grappling or anything like that implemented, subdual is the only non-lethal way to subdue someone. So it seems even worse to make someone a murderer after they went to the trouble and risk of using subdual mode.

I do have to question if there is any legitimate usage of -relent in this case. It seems like a way to get the person who defeated you into trouble or avoid RP, and is essentially a suicide command as you (the subdued one) are using it.

Well, because we have this nifty 24hr rule, the relent command is there to ensure that no one can be forced to interact after a lost PvP if they don't agree to it explicitly, thus waiving any 24hr rule. If someone uses -relent they're saying "No, I don't wait to waive the 24hr rule" for whatever reason that may be, perhaps they're just upset IRL and wants to let tempers cool down.

Also, what trouble and risk of using the ubdual mode?

[DangerDolphin]

Also, what trouble and risk of using the ubdual mode?

The risk you already mentioned it in your own post - 24 hour rule doesn't apply to subdual right now, and people can recover from it, get up and start fighting you again. This can happen in group PvP in particular.

The trouble being that you presumably have some RP entertainment for them, may intend to let them walk away alive, or at a stretch (as you will rarely come across an RPer of this calibre) let you escape to their own detriment.

[Ninjimmy]

Also, what trouble and risk of using the ubdual mode?

The risk you already mentioned it in your own post - 24 hour rule doesn't apply to subdual right now, and people can recover from it, get up and start fighting you again. This can happen in group PvP in particular.

The trouble being that you presumably have some RP entertainment for them, may intend to let them walk away alive, or at a stretch (as you will rarely come across an RPer of this calibre) let you escape to their own detriment.

That last point is kindof part of a larger problem with taking Ls but I'd like to think the W value of winning the confrontation makes taking the L of "Oh no, I got cocky and didnt finish the job" easier to swallow but then I don't engage in thaaaat much honour based PvP

[-XXX-]

-relent is important to have because without it subdual has a much greater griefing potential than actual PvP killbash.

Captive/prisoner RP can be executed in a fun way, but can also be done very poorly. It's important to have some way of opting out of it other than logging off.

[Kuma]

Maybe even make that courier stuff lootable (idk how it works, never killed someone with a courier writ).

You get some money if you pick up a corpse from someone carrying a package. 500 if I recall correctly.

this could stand to be increased if that's the case. perhaps scaling with victim's level (with some randomisation) to prevent epic bad guys ganking lowbies running to bendir.

[Cybren]

Maybe even make that courier stuff lootable (idk how it works, never killed someone with a courier writ).

You get some money if you pick up a corpse from someone carrying a package. 500 if I recall correctly.

this could stand to be increased if that's the case. perhaps scaling with victim's level (with some randomisation) to prevent epic bad guys ganking lowbies running to bendir.

For a moment I was thinking about what if you also get an xp bonus if you’re in a level range the victim when you pick it up, but then I envisioned people sending out parties to coordinate that...