Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
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Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
This currently allows players to identify items within quarters that would be completely unknown about IC, or worse, see fixtures that have tags or descriptions revealing the owner of 'hidden ownership' quarters.
Would it be possible to have maps fully explored, without revealing on the main screen what is not in line of sight?
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Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
It's one or the other without expensive visibility scripts that will create lag, to my understanding. Either the mini-map is fully explored, or it isn't- and if the mini-map is explored, it does it through code that eliminates the Fog of War and thus, reveals whatever's within it, whether or not it's in line of sight or not.Morgy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:45 pmCurrently this Loremaster gift allows the reveal of maps and also the contents of any unexplored areas that come across your screen - including those hidden areas and locked/secret quarters.
This currently allows players to identify items within quarters that would be completely unknown about IC, or worse, see fixtures that have tags or descriptions revealing the owner of 'hidden ownership' quarters.
Would it be possible to have maps fully explored, without revealing on the main screen what is not in line of sight?
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Ah, I see!In Sorrow We Trust wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:12 pmIt's one or the other without expensive visibility scripts that will create lag, to my understanding. Either the mini-map is fully explored, or it isn't- and if the mini-map is explored, it does it through code that eliminates the Fog of War and thus, reveals whatever's within it, whether or not it's in line of sight or not.Morgy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:45 pmCurrently this Loremaster gift allows the reveal of maps and also the contents of any unexplored areas that come across your screen - including those hidden areas and locked/secret quarters.
This currently allows players to identify items within quarters that would be completely unknown about IC, or worse, see fixtures that have tags or descriptions revealing the owner of 'hidden ownership' quarters.
Would it be possible to have maps fully explored, without revealing on the main screen what is not in line of sight?
Well, personally my preference would be to protect IC investments of secrecy, rather than the minimap which isn't super useful 95% of the time where people navigate by vision ahead or pure memory.
That's just my preference though. The gift is still worth it with the sailing and tracking boosts, besides!
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
"95% of the time" is a bit of an much I think. The entire group of people I play with (and originally came to the server with) still use the map to navigate because we haven't spent several years on these maps to commit them all to memory. I don't think removing a QOL thing for people to be able to navigate easier is a good response to "some people MIGHT use it to metagame"Morgy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:16 pmAh, I see!In Sorrow We Trust wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:12 pmIt's one or the other without expensive visibility scripts that will create lag, to my understanding. Either the mini-map is fully explored, or it isn't- and if the mini-map is explored, it does it through code that eliminates the Fog of War and thus, reveals whatever's within it, whether or not it's in line of sight or not.Morgy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:45 pmCurrently this Loremaster gift allows the reveal of maps and also the contents of any unexplored areas that come across your screen - including those hidden areas and locked/secret quarters.
This currently allows players to identify items within quarters that would be completely unknown about IC, or worse, see fixtures that have tags or descriptions revealing the owner of 'hidden ownership' quarters.
Would it be possible to have maps fully explored, without revealing on the main screen what is not in line of sight?
Well, personally my preference would be to protect IC investments of secrecy, rather than the minimap which isn't super useful 95% of the time where people navigate by vision ahead or pure memory.
That's just my preference though. The gift is still worth it with the sailing and tracking boosts, besides!
Or just don't label your evil necromancer closet "Lucy's Super Evil Collection of Dresses and Dead people"
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Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
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Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Okay maybe 95% was a bit high, but the consequence of metagaming in ways like this can severely impact PCs stories in an unfair manner.noj wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:29 pm"95% of the time" is a bit of an much I think. The entire group of people I play with (and originally came to the server with) still use the map to navigate because we haven't spent several years on these maps to commit them all to memory. I don't think removing a QOL thing for people to be able to navigate easier is a good response to "some people MIGHT use it to metagame"Morgy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:16 pmAh, I see!In Sorrow We Trust wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:12 pm
It's one or the other without expensive visibility scripts that will create lag, to my understanding. Either the mini-map is fully explored, or it isn't- and if the mini-map is explored, it does it through code that eliminates the Fog of War and thus, reveals whatever's within it, whether or not it's in line of sight or not.
Well, personally my preference would be to protect IC investments of secrecy, rather than the minimap which isn't super useful 95% of the time where people navigate by vision ahead or pure memory.
That's just my preference though. The gift is still worth it with the sailing and tracking boosts, besides!
Or just don't label your evil necromancer closet "Lucy's Super Evil Collection of Dresses and Dead people"
Also, I'm more referring to peoples ability to examine fixtures, not just see the name label of them.
But this has been fixed anyway, so, thanks fixers!!
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
TLDR: Is it possible to just make maps like Taverns, Cloven Hoof, Vaults and Sibayad interiors an exception for a player to not have the floor plan of?
I may have misread the recent upcoming updates if this was not yet implemented from the most recent reset from this time posted 3.26.22
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
As per:
https://nwnlexicon.com/index.php?title=GetIsAreaNatural
Irongron wrote:I've literally never used -guard on anyone.
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Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Metagamers are why we can't have nice things
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Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Most dungeons are probably marked natural. If that's not the case, well ...MissEvelyn wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:11 amDoes this fix include dungeons? It would be quite unfortunate if dungeons were also no longer visible.
Metagamers are why we can't have nice things
I'll have to make a case statement to cross check area resrefs that have quarters and that's gonna be.....
.....a lot of work.
keep me posted.
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
I share your feelings! Thou I must admit, being able to see what the quarters looks like is great, but how would that become a problem is beyond me...MissEvelyn wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:11 amDoes this fix include dungeons? It would be quite unfortunate if dungeons were also no longer visible.
Metagamers are why we can't have nice things
Drow shadowlord Lomin Nightshade
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
With the secret of the explorer you can see that through the wall.
With the change so natural areas only are where it works, that can’t happen (except in niche cases)
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Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Why can't people just not metagame that knowledge? Your character has no way of knowing that shrine exists, even if you as the player knows. You may know the layout of the building, but not that each room contains a shrine to Bane.Rei_Jin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:18 pmWell, say someone has a quarter in a public access area, like a tavern, and they never let anyone in their room, but they have a named shrine to Bane in it.
With the secret of the explorer you can see that through the wall.
With the change so natural areas only are where it works, that can’t happen (except in niche cases)
I know, I know. Expecting such courtesy is asking way too much
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
As for metagaming I think much of the server is mature enough not to do it outright but it's like with disguise or trying to conceal being a necromancer or warlock, even those who are making an effort not to metagame will be conscious of what they know and it will affect RP. Not always to their advantage, sometimes they overcompensate to make sure they don't use forbidden info (and even refuse to pick up clues IG) which is admirable but also not ideal. Knowing something you're not supposed to can actually be a burden if you're not the kind to take advantage of it and I think it's just better all around to keep some secrets hidden as much as possible for as long as possible.
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Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
exorbitant amounts of work.Eyeliner wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:20 pmHonestly think it would be better if it was turned off only in areas that have quarters instead of natural vs not but I understand that would probably be a lot more work.
As for metagaming I think much of the server is mature enough not to do it outright but it's like with disguise or trying to conceal being a necromancer or warlock, even those who are making an effort not to metagame will be conscious of what they know and it will affect RP. Not always to their advantage, sometimes they overcompensate to make sure they don't use forbidden info (and even refuse to pick up clues IG) which is admirable but also not ideal. Knowing something you're not supposed to can actually be a burden if you're not the kind to take advantage of it and I think it's just better all around to keep some secrets hidden as much as possible for as long as possible.
it was easier to switch it to natural areas only
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Yup.. my thougts exactly.. map reveal is only for outside nature anyway, seems like a map isnt suppose to reveal itself?
Dormant Character: Tabitha Fuzzypaw - Shelved, searching all corners for treasures and secrets.
Misty Scrollsinger - Still searching answers, but is now elsewhere
Rolled Character: Björn Njald - sailed on new adventures
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
I agree.. its sadMissEvelyn wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:11 amDoes this fix include dungeons? It would be quite unfortunate if dungeons were also no longer visible.
Metagamers are why we can't have nice things
Dormant Character: Tabitha Fuzzypaw - Shelved, searching all corners for treasures and secrets.
Misty Scrollsinger - Still searching answers, but is now elsewhere
Rolled Character: Björn Njald - sailed on new adventures
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Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Hypothetical metagamers. Had there actually been a case of this happening?
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Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
If someone knows something they shouldn't, especially a secret you're hiding, their behavior changes. Not easy to prove but it's easy to tell. Maybe they're unreasonably cagey about the character or go out of their way to expose them with something they can prove. Maybe they drop vague hints or post anonymous notes to expose them. I've seen that many times.ElvenEdibles wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:55 pmHypothetical metagamers. Had there actually been a case of this happening?
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Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
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Re: Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?
I'm doing the loremaster class with this feat.
And I've done the ranger class.
THE SOLUTION COULD BE AND (FOR ME) MAKE THE CLASS MORE ENJOYABLE DO
make a mix between the "map reveal revisited (wilderness) also konw as 'wilderness map' "and the "secret knowledge of the explorer".
What it will be fine should be: 1) make the whole maps invisible
2) one time that you discovered an area let that area visible always (like the wilderness map of the ranger but opened for all areas)
3) add the other skills of the secret knowledge of the explore.
Doing so you will have a loremaster that doesn't start with all areas rivealed, but has to make exploration and the areas didn't seen will remain not seen. I think.