Shadowdancer Rework Brainstorming Megathread

[garrbear758]

Hey yall! This is a very very early rough draft for a shadowdancer rework and I wanted to just get some feedback from the start and keep things transparent since this is a pretty popular class. Everything is very subject to change and likely will change in some manner.

Prereqs: Unchanged as of now. I might remove the 5 tumble and require 5 perform instead

Keep all current abilities except the following:
-No HiPS
-No summon shadow as it exists currently (don't panic keep reading).
-No rogue synergy except lightly armored (and undecided on blinding speed synergy)
-Shadows will only copy appearance. They will no longer copy stats / equipment.
-Shadows will lose crippling strike but gain a small amount of bludgeoning/cold/negative damage (probably somewhere around 10-15 damage a hit).

Shadow Daze: DC changed to 10 + SD levels + Perform / 5 (16 SD with 60 perform would have a DC of 38)
Shadow Evade: Unchanged
Shadow Displacement: Renamed to Waltz with Shadows
One with Shadow: Unchanged
Epic Shadowlord: Still makes shadow copy your appearance (but not stats/equipment). Increases summon chance on dance with shadows to 25%. Increases the shadow duration by 2 rounds. Increases the regen on shadow evade to 5 and gives 5% more concealment.

Passive Effects
-Sneak Attack gain at level 1 + every 3rd level thereafter (1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19)
-Shadow Displacement no longer requires line of sight.
-Shadowdancer and their shadow(s) gain passive darkvision at level 5. Gains passive ultravision at level 10. Gains passive see invis at level 15.

New Feats:

Dance of Shadows:
Shadowdancer 1
Passive onhit (can be toggled on and off)
Weapons will gain black shadow vfx when toggled on.
Upon striking an enemy, the shadowdancer has a 20% chance to summon a shadow. The shadow will function the same as the old shadowdancer's shadow, including -guarding the shadowdancer, but it will only last for 5 rounds. The shadowdancer can have a maximum of 1 shadow per 5 shadowdancer levels.
For every active shadow, the shadowdancer will get 1 soft ab, 2 cold damage, and 2 negative damage.
Additionally, the shadowdancer's weapon will not be copied.

Darkness:
Shadowdancer 2
As spell.
3 minute cooldown, -1 minute per 5 shadowdancer levels

Shatter:
Shadowdancer 4
Standard action
AoE centered on summoned shadow(s)
3 minute cooldown
destroys all summoned shadow(s)
Deals 1 cold and 1 negative damage per destroyed shadow per character level (max 30/30 per shadow). Chance to blind equal to 10 + SD levels + Perform / 5 for 1 round.

Glooms Comfort:
Shadowdancer 5
passive
Shadow Evade now gives 3 regen.

Fleche:
Instant Action
Shadowdancer 15
3 Minute Cooldown
Ability to teleport to target for 3 rounds, after which you teleport back to initial location - during this you gain +2 ab, +2 cold damage, +2 negative damage. These stack with the bonuses from having active shadows.

Pirouette:
-Shadowdancer 7
-Range: Medium
-Teleports an active summoned shadow to target, which immediately will do a ww attack.

Penumbral Flamenco:
Instant Action
Shadowdancer 10
10 minute cooldown
Shadowdancer summons 1 shadow per 5 shadowdancer levels. These shadows will last for 5 rounds before vanishing. The shadowdancer gains greater sanctuary for 1 round.
Create Shadow Door:
Standard Action
Shadowdancer 18
10 minute cooldown
This will create a door to the shadowplane (or back to the material world) that will last for 1 minute before fading.
(I'm not sure how feasible this is gonna be since not all areas are 1:1. I'll probably just have it function similarly to potions of attunement if I can't get it to work well as designed.)

Greater pirouette:
Shadowdancer 12
-Pirouette will also cast darkness and evard's black tentacles on target. Duration 1 round.

Shadowdancer 14: Shadow Messenger (same as gsf illusion send image but sends a shadow)

Shadow Step:
Standard Action
Shadowdancer 17
10 minute cooldown
Casts darkness in the shadowdancer's location and the target location. After a short delay, the shadowdancer will teleport to the other darkness.
EDIT: Will need to figure out a way to prevent accessing illegal areas. If not possible then this will get yeeted.

Level TBD: Give them a summon shadow or two that last 24hr but have zero combat benefits. These shadows will not count for shadowdancer's other abilities. Purely just RP henchman for using -a on.

[noj]

Just my two cents on the Shadowdancer rework from the perspective of someone who is using it to supplement an archer build. Probably not a majority opinion but I'll type it up regardless:

Losing HIPS to me is not that drastic, it's been said for a while that is was going to be removed wholesale. It gimps stealth-based builds a bit but as long as they're given something to aid in the loss, nbd to me.

Losing the permanent summon is huge to me, however. For more than a few builds on the wiki page it is the cornerstone of keeping some builds alive. The knight SD builds also rely on it, and it's a cool flavour thing to have a shadow on a horse. I'd really prefer we didn't lose it in favor of something that is not only temporary, but is something we can't play with outside of combat either. The shadow is the definitive part of Shadowdancer, and I feel like the class is going to lose a ton of value without it as a permanent summon.

Would it be possible to change some of the feat abilities to manipulate the shadow? Fleche teleporting the shadow in for a strong attack and then warping back would be handy, as an example, as opposed to teleporting in the character? Somehow allowing both options depending on if you've a ranged weapon or a melee weapon? That may be more effort than it's worth.

Or add level synergy with ranger as well, since rangers have the capacity to be great sneaks and I would love to see more viable play for non-melee rangers.

An alternate option: Make this a secondary path for shadowdancers. Original Shadowdancer could retain the permanent summon and function as it normally would with the DC changes and removal of HIPS, and the new rework could be a path that plays fairly differently to the original.

[xanrael]

Yeah I'm going to agree on the shadow portion. You're going to start the fight unguarded unless you're racing spawn to spawn. So you still need just as strong of defenses as not being guarded which kind of defeats the point of having it.

This design seems closer to the GW2 Mesmer with Phantom/Clones but is heavily RNG. I think it would be better served if you had some method to spawn an initial shadow to get the ball rolling, even if you lower the spawn rate of the other. And that ability should be in the first few levels and not at the end.

[Eyeliner]

I think I am getting weary with Arelith lately because when I see a class has cool abilities with DCs I think, "oh well I'll probably never use them."

I know I am over generalizing and a 38 DC has some chance of working I just wish it had... more chance. Like no save, but could be countered and only lasts a round, or if it has to have a save you can use it more than once in three minutes because the chance of working between competent level 30s or even in high end PVE is very low. That's a problem that goes far beyond this shadowdancer reboot of course.

Otherwise I'm on board with the shifty combat antics and look forward to trying those out.

[Sigmar Revenge]

My few cents:

• Could we keep ability names more Forgotten Realms thematic? just for immersion purposes (Waltz, Flammenco etc..)
• Leave Hips but change it? make it instant Greater Sanctuary with slight bonus to hide/ms, on Cooldown
• Glooms Comfort, 3 regen is kinda meh. How about Shadowdancer being able to consume nearby shadows to heal their wounds? Some burst heal with Cooldown, both heal and CD being lvl based
• Give at least one Shadow copy to control with 24h duration as you mentioned, even if only for RP purposes BUT let them control said Shadow like familiar with enough lvl investment? So could send said shadow to spy etc.

Overall with +sneak attack every 3 lvls and still being able to get EDodge + all new cool abilities I see new Shadowdancer becoming very popular and strong class.

[Ork]

Guaranteeing the first shadow on combat might be a really cool way to address the issue brought up, but I do like the temporal nature of the shadow.

[Kirito2]

For the current proposal, i feel the loss of a permanent shadow is a huge loss for the class, both from a combat perspective, and from a thematic / rp one too.

What I do like,

• is the idea of shadows congregating around the dancer as they fight - IF you had a permanent shadow, then 1/5 levels seems ok. Otherwise 1/3 or 1+1/4 feels more interesting as as currently stated, you have to be Level 10 dancer to have a second shadow. (Compared to a necromancer/palemaster that can summon 4 shadows by then)

• creating shadow door/stepping into the shadow plane

Whilst I understand HIPS must go from a PvP perspective, it would be nice to have a replacement that has a similar end effect for PvE. I.e., the ability to get out of danger by simply disappearing, it's certainly saved me a lot!
Fleche and Penumbral Flamenco sort of have this covered, but it would be good to have a way of preventing the return teleport for Fleche (e.g., by stepping through a shadow door) so you could properly escape.

[Vyrandil Rivorndir]

Guaranteeing the first shadow on combat might be a really cool way to address the issue brought up, but I do like the temporal nature of the shadow.

This doesn't sound like a bad idea, have a cooldown on the guaranteed hit so it isn't a perpetual guard, but at least lets you have some reliability during RNG.

Additionally, fleche is a cool concept. Without having given much thought on the balance impact, something like reducing the Cooldown at a rate of 1 minute per 8, 9 or 10 levels invested might not be a bad idea to let it have some kind of more impactful usage in encounters rather than a "Fire and Forget" feature.

Would allow it to be used at a 2 or 1 minute rate. At then 16, 18 or 20 SD levels it would have an uptime of 3 rounds out of 10 every turn (Or can make the cooldown begin after the 3 rounds expire, to make it a full 60 seconds downtime).

[Aog]

Super into all the proposed changes. A 'permanent' shadow for an RP tool would be very appreciated but honestly this is exactly what I would want out of a shadow manipulator!

[garrbear758]

Guaranteeing the first shadow on combat might be a really cool way to address the issue brought up, but I do like the temporal nature of the shadow.

This doesn't sound like a bad idea, have a cooldown on the guaranteed hit so it isn't a perpetual guard, but at least lets you have some reliability during RNG.

Additionally, fleche is a cool concept. Without having given much thought on the balance impact, something like reducing the Cooldown at a rate of 1 minute per 8, 9 or 10 levels invested might not be a bad idea to let it have some kind of more impactful usage in encounters rather than a "Fire and Forget" feature.

Would allow it to be used at a 2 or 1 minute rate. At then 16, 18 or 20 SD levels it would have an uptime of 3 rounds out of 10 every turn (Or can make the cooldown begin after the 3 rounds expire, to make it a full 60 seconds downtime).

Agree with both of these. Most of the abilities should probably have some sort of cooldown kind of like knight.

And I'm leaning towards either first shadow is guaranteed which should help there. Or just making the first one permanent and the rest short duration

[God_In_Action]

Im playing a 16 SD character right now. To be honest, the class doesn't feel in a bad place to begin with. Sure, a little boring in that the mechanics don't require much planning but by no means is SD a class not worth taking. We'll have to comment on the new options carefully but as an initial comment my assumption would be "If an aspect isn't broken don't fix it"

P.s. any ability called penumbral flamenco gets my vote.

P.s.s. I don't see the need for the flavour to go too much down the acrobat/dancer route. Let there be space for other flavours of shadow dancer, or even a path. Maybe an option to key off perform vs another skill. Tying the class only to perform feels a bit restrictive for class options and gearing.

[Watchful Glare]

First hit on combat guaranteed to produce a shadow.

Every existing shadow reduces the chance to produce an additional shadow by 20%.

[Ajinai]

Having a guaranteed first shadow has my vote over one of the shadows being permanent if this is the direction the class is being taken to. Reasons being that the shadows become less of a permanent guard and more of a resource to spend.

I would however like to see more epic feats to allow you to focus on some of the new features and not just make your shadows better. Stuff like:

• Epic Shadow Consumption: Allow you to consume your shadows to give back hp/give hp regen
• Epic Shadow Technique: Shatter cooldown reduced by 1 minute and returns one of the expended shadows back after use

[ReverentBlade]

More endless rebuilds for existing characters. It gets so old. Is this necessary to begin with?

[garrbear758]

First hit on combat guaranteed to produce a shadow.

Every existing shadow reduces the chance to produce an additional shadow by 20%.

This is what I'm leaning towards. Probably not a flat 20%, but something like
0 shadows - 100% chance to summon one
1 shadow - 50% chance
2 or more shadows - 25% chance

Having a guaranteed first shadow has my vote over one of the shadows being permanent if this is the direction the class is being taken to. Reasons being that the shadows become less of a permanent guard and more of a resource to spend.

I would however like to see more epic feats to allow you to focus on some of the new features and not just make your shadows better. Stuff like:

• Epic Shadow Consumption: Allow you to consume your shadows to give back hp/give hp regen
• Epic Shadow Technique: Shatter cooldown reduced by 1 minute and returns one of the expended shadows back after use

I really like these ideas. I'll see about incorporating this or something similar

[garrbear758]

More endless rebuilds for existing characters. It gets so old. Is this necessary to begin with?

Nothing here will break existing builds. it is being intentionally planned that way. And even if shadowdancer were to stay in its original form in some manner, it would still lose HiPS.

This is also several months out. I haven't even started coding it. I posted it this early for the sake of transparency and feedback and so no one gets blindsided by a big change.

[Airport Proximity Jesus]

I'm fond of it being more actual straight up dancing mechanically, and I am also very fond of it being, like, very trickster-ey? I love these mechanics in concept. Would be extremely chaotic to actually fight an SD

[Scraps]

Greater pirouette:
Shadowdancer 12
-Pirouette will also cast darkness and evard's black tentacles on target. Duration 1 round.

I don't have much to say because I don't play and have never played SD, though this sounds very cool.

However, a Evards, even with a 1 round duration could be very bad for the Shadowdancer. That spell doesn't respect anyone or anything.

[xanrael]

Is the plan to allow "Dance of Shadows" to proc off ranged weapons as well?

[Richrd]

Both my big main PCs were Shadowdancers, so I am going to chime in on this.

I like the basic idea of making nothing here seem like you are forcing a DEX SD build. I also like going away from the permanently summoned shadow to more of a dynamic mid-combat spawning for multiple shadows. Cold + negative energy damage is also good, same as with all these thematic abilities.

Let's be real, this would take the SD PRC from a "lul I am nearly impossible to kill in PvE because I have a dummy tanky summon" to a more interesting class. People who say "but my build" either didn't play this for the actual Shadowdancing part or they cling too hard to what was basically a hackjob tank and spank class.

But I'd raise a couple of points here.

1. The bonus damage to weapons (the cold+negative scaling with your shadows) is a bit unclear. Will it stack with essences? Is it going to be applied to both weapons if dual wielding? Are two-hand users going to gain any benefits or are they going to be treated the same as one handed weapons?

2. The HP regen you receive from Shadow Evade should in my opinion ramp in combat. The more shadows you have out, aka. the thicker the dark veil is you dance within, the more you should benefit. There should be some active gameplay component and decision to making your shadows go poof, like "okay I can sacrifice a shadow or two for damage but then I lose regen". This could be done with any other component of Shadow Evade, really. But the regen seems the most logical to hit with such a change I believe.

3. The idea of summoning a door to Shadovar sounds a bit silly, not gonna lie. I'd scrap that entirely and go with something else but then again I am also not the one in charge, just some random bozo giving feedback.

4. There is one last issue I see here. With the loss of HiPS how exactly are you supposed to re-enter stealth as a Shadowdancer now? Darkness is not an option, from mid-level ranges and upwards most PCs are going to have Ultravision to counter that and let's not even get started on PvE. I don't know if it's doable but what might help a bit here would be for targetting to not be sticky, meaning if you the SD swap positions with one of your shadows it should ideally look seamless and your opponent should be left clueless that you've just swapped and keep on hitting what he thinks is you but just a shadow instead. But that's me fantasizing too hard at this point probably.

[God_In_Action]

Hey yall! This is a very very early rough draft for a shadowdancer rework and I wanted to just get some feedback from the start and keep things transparent since this is a pretty popular class. Everything is very subject to change and likely will change in some manner.

Garrbear, what's your overall vision of the niche for a new SD? DPS? Tank? A balance between DPS/tank? A trickster with cool tricks (a bit like rogue or swashbuckler? A class that can dip into thematic magic like the Shadow Weave, shadow themed spells or Shadow Conjuration spells? It might help to know the end goal to suggest cool ways of doing it.

[riffraff]

I'm also playing squishy ranged and a permanent or at least guaranteed summon to start feels kinda necessary for me to not just instantly eat it. But also as others have said, the RP usage of a permanent shadow is key.

A lot of this stuff sounds really thematically cool, though. The temporary shadows appearing in, the Shadow Messenger and shadowplane door summoning are especially so to me. Though on the latter I agree it would be neater if it's more like the character slipping through a shadow onto the plane than plopping a portal down.

Or add level synergy with ranger as well, since rangers have the capacity to be great sneaks and I would love to see more viable play for non-melee rangers.

Completely selfishly on my part, yes please. ^

[Deep Fried Thinking Emoji]

The new shadowdancer gets a few abilities that allow them to cast darkness, which thematically is pretty cool and makes sense, but mechanically is useless as everyone on the server has easy access to ultravision, so, what if the new shadowdancer had some way to dispel ultravision from targets? I don't think it's too gamebreaking as it can easily be countered by just drinking a potion again.

Maybe have the removal of ultravision tied to casting darkness itself, so if someone is in the area while it is cast an attempts is made to remove ultravision from them. Probably also limit the chance to remove it to once every 30 seconds or something like that, since as I understand it a level 15 SD should be able to cast darkness through his level 2 ability at will.

Another option could be to make Shadow Evade give a % to dispel ultravision on hit, or a new ability that allows the shadowdancer to consume one of his shadows to try and dispel the effect.

EDIT: Creatures with innate ultravision as undead, level 10 SDs, or specific mobs should be inmune to this, of course

[linusboyle]

I like the overall idea but really hope the new class features are not tied to Perform. It makes no sense that you are stronger if you can perform better. Well, shadowdancers are not really 'dancers' after all. And this will probably tax more skillpoints and gears compared to tumble, since most existing builds take tumble by default.

It also seems I'll have to click a lot of buttons with the new SD class, and with all the shadows around the combat would be chaotic. If possible I'd hope the abilities could be simplified a bit.

P.S Not about the class mechanics, but I hope we could get some IG events leading to this rework, Shar's conspiracy or something.

[Edens_Fall]

I'd like to see the MS/ Hide both improved per class level. Currently only Hide is affected.

The reason I bring this up is from my experience, even with a Hide of 100 and MS of 80, it's just too easy to get spotted. A single spell/scroll can out you for one, and that's not mentioning the other spells, racial bonuses, bard levels, and feats to boost a PC spot bots base skill points. With the loss of HiPs (a greyay way to try and return to cover after being spotted) the class deserves a bump to its primary class focus . . . Hiding and going unseen.