Necromancy specialists that dont romance the necro, need love.

[Hinty]

If you want to play a Necromancer there is only one path open to you. Evil Undead summoner.
Necromancy is a whole school of magic, and yet of the three paths that you can take to specialise, (Spell Foci, Specialist Wizard class, and the Prestige Class) the only path that isn't purely about your summons is the Prestige class that turns you half undead.

Yes. If you want to be a Necromancy mage without Undead summons, you are better with Pale Master levels than any other option because Pale Master boosts necromancy spells that dont involve summons. (Specialists get all of 2 non summon spells that get boosted and one of those is HIGHLY situational.)

Necromancy is the school of magics related to life, death, soul and body. Yet all a necromancy specialist can hope for is slightly increased DCs on (admitedly numerous) negative energy/drain spells that are worthless in PvP because everyone has Neg Energy Prot and restorations out the whazoo. Defiler Clerics at least get to convert some of the damage to Entropy, but this is not a solution as this is essentially turning the spells into Hybrid Necro/Evocation spells.

So as things stand, if you want to play a Good or Neutral aligned Necromancer your options are either Palemaster (Avoid going down the undead summoning path by becoming half undead instead!) or Defiler (focus on necromancy by making your spells less necromancy'y.)

It is hard to think of a solution, but I do think the first step is to give Wizard Necromancy Specialists bonuses to some of the spells that aren't undead related. If a wizard wants to be a super undead summoner they already have Palemaster as a path. Give them something else instead.
Vampiric style healing perhaps? A portion of all Negative Energy damage from Necromancy school spells is granted as healing to the mage? Maybe even as a small amount of temp HP to all nearby allies?
Half damage is Negative Energy half is Positive? Reaching back to the days when Necromancy was the school of both, and the healing spells were in the school too.
A portion of the damage can bypass Neg Energy protection or even harm undead?

Give them an option. A Necromancer with Undead Summons under their control work as normal. A Necromancer without instead benefits from one of the above. (Undead dominated by Control undead could fall either side of the restriction depending on balance)

Either way SOMETHING needs to be done. No school of magic is inherently good or evil, even if many of the spells in Necromancy are, the school itself isn't, but 99.999999999% of characters that will ever be played that focus on it will all be evil.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

This is a summon meta/ PW issue.

If you want to focus on necromancer spells and not summon, try a hemomancer with conjuration and necro focus and pick spells accordingly.

We also added some cool trans/necro summon that uses your hp to make.. that I am havign troubles finding the page to.

[-XXX-]

It's not good to judge spell schools in a vacuum - most spellcaster builds can focus in at least two or more, so there's a wider context.

Necromancy and Conjuration are probably the two most wholesome spell schools atm., offering a wide array of good spells and summons. Issue with necromancy is that many of its spells carry an RP stigma (which is OK).

Even a non-evil necromancer who chooses not to use the necro spells with the evil descriptor can still get mileage out of their necro focus comparable to, say divination or enchantment.
Thing is that one of the greatest benefits of the necro school are the summons and once we choose not to use them, there's little incentive not to go the conjuration route instead.

The beast revenant stream might offer avenues for some interesting RP, since at first glance it's not so apparently evil as the other streams (flaunting it in front of druids can still result in injuries).

If you want to focus on necromancer spells and not summon, try a hemomancer with conjuration and necro focus and pick spells accordingly.

Thing is, a lot of the Blood Arcana spells also have the evil descriptor which makes them at least as sinister as straight up undead animation. It's just that the surface RP culture has not caught up to this yet.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

It's not good to judge spell schools in a vacuum - most spellcaster builds can focus in at least two or more, so there's a wider context.

Necromancy and Conjuration are probably the two most wholesome spell schools atm., offering a wide array of good spells and summons. Issue with necromancy is that many of its spells carry an RP stigma (which is OK).

Even a non-evil necromancer who chooses not to use the necro spells with the evil descriptor can still get mileage out of their necro focus comparable to, say divination or enchantment.
Thing is that one of the greatest benefits of the necro school are the summons and once we choose not to use them, there's little incentive not to go the conjuration route instead.

The beast revenant stream might offer avenues for some interesting RP, since at first glance it's not so apparently evil as the other streams (flaunting it in front of druids can still result in injuries).

If you want to focus on necromancer spells and not summon, try a hemomancer with conjuration and necro focus and pick spells accordingly.

Thing is, a lot of the Blood Arcana spells also have the evil descriptor which makes them at least as sinister as straight up undead animation. It's just that the surface RP culture has not caught up to this yet.

Nah animating, will always be worse. You have to remember, even druid have qauls with animation.

Also i think you are making good arguments of how non evil necromancer spell focus can still be a thing by getting good mileage out of necromancer spells without using undead summons. Like compare to say illusion focus spells. The bonuses towards undead are actaully quite small compared to conj bonuses for conjuration. So you could have a wide breadth of spells doing both conj and necro focus. From cloud kill to lower their con, to the various partial save necro spells, etc.

I wish i could find that new lvl 9 summon spell they added for transmutation people too.

[perseid]

The distinction about animation is largely an Arelith social trend. Refusing to animate but calling yourself a necromancer of any merit in pnp would canonically get you laughed at and make almost no sense. Not every necromancy spell might have the [Evil] tag but in pnp and the setting what distinguished you as more neutral than evil on the axis was recognizing the time/place for such things not the weird morally absolute stance popular on Arelith. The Arelithian brand is largely a product of people wanting to be able to play surface necromancers without getting pvped out of town or instantly issued a mechanical pariah/exile.

[-XXX-]

perseid is spot on in the post above.

Lorewise there's very little distinction. If we read through the descriptions of most necro spells with the evil descriptor, we'll see that they aim to either rend or corrupt somebody's soul, which is precisely what the more sinister forms of undead animation (i.e. the creation of higher sentient undead) does and why it is considered so evil.

The IG social attitude toward undead animation (especially where Surface RP is concerned) is partially an overreaction to the game aspect of the PW environment where we'd inevitably have 63 black McSkullhelmets parading around Cordor with ghouls in tow had the RP culture regarded this differently. That'd have been a little disruptive for the established IG lore and overal setting aesthetics.

Trouble's when the social trend gets used to establish superficial IG conflict with no regard for context or the greater picture:
"I saw you use skeletons to fight the devils in Avernus! That's morally reprehensible! You've been exposed. PK. Exile. Roll already."

[Eyeliner]

I don't think this is Arelith specific. I've seen similar attitude on the other PWs I played on.

I think it might be NWN Persistent World specific behavior though. In PnP you don't have dozens or hundreds of characters to interact with, you have a small party of the other players at the table and it's often a mix of all alignments and classes so you will see a necromancer and a paladin have to team up for the adventure, arguing at each other sure but not going straight to PVP at first sight. In these always-on D&D games with dozens or hundreds of players it's easy if not encouraged to ostracize your characters enemies so that's what happens.

[perseid]

I don't think this is Arelith specific. I've seen similar attitude on the other PWs I played on.

I think it might be NWN Persistent World specific behavior though. In PnP you don't have dozens or hundreds of characters to interact with, you have a small party of the other players at the table and it's often a mix of all alignments and classes so you will see a necromancer and a paladin have to team up for the adventure, arguing at each other sure but not going straight to PVP at first sight. In these always-on D&D games with dozens or hundreds of players it's easy if not encouraged to ostracize your characters enemies so that's what happens.

You see it on persistent worlds because most persistent worlds are content to let mistaken players grief each other over failures to adhere to the setting. Largely because policing it would be tedious for staff. But that doesn't mean the attitude should be encouraged by designing around it.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

The distinction about animation is largely an Arelith social trend. Refusing to animate but calling yourself a necromancer of any merit in pnp would canonically get you laughed at and make almost no sense. Not every necromancy spell might have the [Evil] tag but in pnp and the setting what distinguished you as more neutral than evil on the axis was recognizing the time/place for such things not the weird morally absolute stance popular on Arelith. The Arelithian brand is largely a product of people wanting to be able to play surface necromancers without getting pvped out of town or instantly issued a mechanical pariah/exile.

Animating is expensive in PnP. Honestly you can total be a necromancer on table top and not animate. Just like how most my wizards never use summon spells even though there are so many good conjuration spells. It's just a different beast. Though calling yourself a 'necromancer' is definitely unnecessary even if you took spell focus necromancy (and again, thes spell focus dont even make your animate undead any strong in table top)

[perseid]

The distinction about animation is largely an Arelith social trend. Refusing to animate but calling yourself a necromancer of any merit in pnp would canonically get you laughed at and make almost no sense. Not every necromancy spell might have the [Evil] tag but in pnp and the setting what distinguished you as more neutral than evil on the axis was recognizing the time/place for such things not the weird morally absolute stance popular on Arelith. The Arelithian brand is largely a product of people wanting to be able to play surface necromancers without getting pvped out of town or instantly issued a mechanical pariah/exile.

Animating is expensive in PnP. Honestly you can total be a necromancer on table top and not animate. Just like how most my wizards never use summon spells even though there are so many good conjuration spells. It's just a different beast. Though calling yourself a 'necromancer' is definitely unnecessary even if you took spell focus necromancy (and again, thes spell focus dont even make your animate undead any strong in table top)

In 3e the material components you couldn't replace with a generic spell component pouch were the 25gp and 50gp per HD types of materials and for the level you gained the spells at these things were wildly cheap if you went by the suggested loot tables in the dm guide. The hardest part was the bodies themselves and you could get those through other spells if you really wanted to.

[The GrumpyCat]

I just love the title of this thread. That is all.

[Hinty]

It's not good to judge spell schools in a vacuum - most spellcaster builds can focus in at least two or more, so there's a wider context.

Necromancy and Conjuration are probably the two most wholesome spell schools atm., offering a wide array of good spells and summons. Issue with necromancy is that many of its spells carry an RP stigma (which is OK).

Even a non-evil necromancer who chooses not to use the necro spells with the evil descriptor can still get mileage out of their necro focus comparable to, say divination or enchantment.
Thing is that one of the greatest benefits of the necro school are the summons and once we choose not to use them, there's little incentive not to go the conjuration route instead.

The beast revenant stream might offer avenues for some interesting RP, since at first glance it's not so apparently evil as the other streams (flaunting it in front of druids can still result in injuries).

If you want to focus on necromancer spells and not summon, try a hemomancer with conjuration and necro focus and pick spells accordingly.

Thing is, a lot of the Blood Arcana spells also have the evil descriptor which makes them at least as sinister as straight up undead animation. It's just that the surface RP culture has not caught up to this yet.

Nah animating, will always be worse. You have to remember, even druid have qauls with animation.

Should point out that Druids issue with the Undead is not about how evil it is or isn't. Druids don't care about good or evil, just natural and unnatural, and Undead are most certainly not natural.

[solar separation]

I think this is a lovely overall idea.
That's, that's it.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

It's not good to judge spell schools in a vacuum - most spellcaster builds can focus in at least two or more, so there's a wider context.

Necromancy and Conjuration are probably the two most wholesome spell schools atm., offering a wide array of good spells and summons. Issue with necromancy is that many of its spells carry an RP stigma (which is OK).

Even a non-evil necromancer who chooses not to use the necro spells with the evil descriptor can still get mileage out of their necro focus comparable to, say divination or enchantment.
Thing is that one of the greatest benefits of the necro school are the summons and once we choose not to use them, there's little incentive not to go the conjuration route instead.

The beast revenant stream might offer avenues for some interesting RP, since at first glance it's not so apparently evil as the other streams (flaunting it in front of druids can still result in injuries).

Thing is, a lot of the Blood Arcana spells also have the evil descriptor which makes them at least as sinister as straight up undead animation. It's just that the surface RP culture has not caught up to this yet.

Nah animating, will always be worse. You have to remember, even druid have qauls with animation.

Should point out that Druids issue with the Undead is not about how evil it is or isn't. Druids don't care about good or evil, just natural and unnatural, and Undead are most certainly not natural.

I am aware, its still an evil beyond evil IMO. The way fey are chaotic, almost an alien alignment. Undead have their own special category. And being unnatural is tabooish/wrong for many lawful neutral deities even if it is 'not more evil'. So it will always be a stronger taboo than some other evil descriptive spells.