State of the Arcane Tower

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Hragli
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State of the Arcane Tower

Post by Hragli » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:30 am

The storyline with the Presiding Archmage election has been really awesome, and it has only barely got off its feet. I have to give major kudos to DM Titania for working on this, and whoever else that I might not realize. And, there is of course a huge possibility that I should just stay tuned and see what's in store. But I've had this on my mind, and while everything is in flux storywise, it seems like a choice time to give my personal feedback and experience regarding the Arcane Tower developer side.

You may read this and think that I'm asking for the Tower had the ability to exclude people. After all, that's what most threads about the Arcane Tower I've lurked on tend to be about: of a time most don't have firsthand of when someone acted exclusively, resulting in the Tower getting gelded.

Yet, Arelith at its best is about player leadership and action driving the world. Now, abuse of that can very easily harm a story or a community. But I think part of the beauty of Arelith is that there is the ethos of stopping and recognizing that allowing player driven world comes with a potential set of consequences, and saying that it IS manageable to maintain high degrees of player agency and maintain inclusivity which is necessary for any community to grow and sustain. To say that the Tower is somehow the exception to this is to limit the roleplay in a way that other communities do not deal with, creating a static pocket of the world that is by its nature less appealing to deal with.

And besides, the rest of the server seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

The grove recently got beautiful main guild house quarters, and PVP around use of the portal in my experience is a real thing. Temples are starting to become occupied by players, opening the door to the establishments of groups that can excommunicate/exclude. A counterpart arcanum (an amazing group that goes out of the way to be inclusive) has - for all I can tell - an impenetrable hidden fortress, exclusive by design! Though on a different scale, settlements by their very nature are exclusive and have abundant and often used mechanics to support that. I'm saying these things are potentially exclusive, but the fact is that this possibility of abuse is a consequence of player agency - there's nothing meaningfully unique about that fact in any case.

Now, that's not me saying that the Tower isn't awesome. I obviously think it is! It is one of those amazing places in game that you can see player history. You can see the glory days of wise Sincra Talos, of Hound, and the rest. You see reference to the history everywhere. But it feels like something vestigial, from the lack of any guild hall, to the broken quarters, to the fiat in-game that seems very insinuative of "this is not a player community, don't try to make this into a player community." You feel like you're Homer, looking around at the ruins. It is all very neat, but the legend wears thin when you realize that the whole thing feels like it was put into timeout, maybe for good.

To problems of moderating and encouraging desired behaviour, consider an alternative solution: if there is desired activity in the Tower (e.g., necromancers allowed, political neutrality, no monstrous races, free passage to the portal) make Thoramind's Codex include meaningful guidelines, like Guldorand's charter, that are vague enough to leave room for player leadership. What do you gain and what do you lose? From my perspective, you give an enduring community in the Tower the tools that most every other community has, and you retain every ability to reign back issues that you had in the first place. What a deal!

Thanks for reading!


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DM Monkey
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Re: State of the Arcane Tower

Post by DM Monkey » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:47 am

Definitely stay tuned!

Try harder! Help set a good example of roleplay for the server culture.


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Choofed
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Re: State of the Arcane Tower

Post by Choofed » Mon Oct 23, 2023 7:35 pm

The issue with the Tower at current is that it's been semi-decapitated from leadership or self organisation for a long time. While some people have claimed to be this or that depending on the quarter they own this has been a flawed system where someone can claim their legitimacy by winning a quarter lottery. And this has never been particularly satisfactory.

The reality is that the Tower repersents the "go to" for any high level magical RP that fits the arcane sphere. By placing leadership around a quarter lottery for important extra-national infrastructure it's resulted in a lot of cases of cliqueing. By making people have to be beholden to the leader, to be 'let in' you must buddy up. There is no incentive for them to come to you, their position is assured.

I think the solution personally to making the Tower more legitimate, and empowered, is to remove it's leadership from just quarter lottery and place it back into player agency. Then it can be trusted with power, it's not a group of a few unmovable actors lording over it, there is more dynamics.

So I'd personally propose the following:

  • Make the Arcane Tower have elections for it's overseer, with it's electorate being ellible arcane spellcasters from across the isle and no one else

By doing this it puts the imputus on anyone who takes leadership to appease as many people as possible, by being as inclusive and also doing and organising things. It doesn't become closed off groups, and since it's a international election they can't just be an extension of one nation's 'core group' claiming domain over it. Leadership of the tower would be respected as having a mandate supplied by the votes of a boat load of people from across the isle, and mayhaps giving them minor control over the happenings around the tower. It's voice would matter.

Make the Tower a pseudo-settlement with no citizenships and an elected leader who has to include people. End quarter lottery deciding position as has historically happened.


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RedGiant
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Re: State of the Arcane Tower

Post by RedGiant » Mon Oct 23, 2023 10:40 pm

As a player who has played extensively in both the Arcane Tower (in exclusive and non-exclusive times) and the Boreal Keep, all I can say is that exclusion sucks and it is absolutely real. Even now, try going against the grain in the Boreal Keep and your wardstone will cease functioning in 5 seconds.

In short, if you are asking for faction control of something so central to the Isle as the Arcane Tower, I would rethink this.

Could there be several competing guild houses within the Tower? Maybe! This almost seemed like the design of the current tower, but it pulled up just short of this.

Could making it some sort of settlement work? Also maybe, but this would come at the cost of significant independence and likely make it just a slightly bigger exclusive club.

I'm not sure any of this is strictly necessary. What you are essentially asking for is "more control over the tower". It is really nice to have some habitable venues that aren't actually under player control (i.e. guildhouses and settlements) and the Tower was one of the more meaningful areas that scratched this itch, being bound together by professional concerns more than politics.

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Choofed
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Re: State of the Arcane Tower

Post by Choofed » Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:38 am

RedGiant wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 10:40 pm

As a player who has played extensively in both the Arcane Tower (in exclusive and non-exclusive times) and the Boreal Keep, all I can say is that exclusion sucks and it is absolutely real. Even now, try going against the grain in the Boreal Keep and your wardstone will cease functioning in 5 seconds.

In short, if you are asking for faction control of something so central to the Isle as the Arcane Tower, I would rethink this.

Could there be several competing guild houses within the Tower? Maybe! This almost seemed like the design of the current tower, but it pulled up just short of this.

Could making it some sort of settlement work? Also maybe, but this would come at the cost of significant independence and likely make it just a slightly bigger exclusive club.

I'm not sure any of this is strictly necessary. What you are essentially asking for is "more control over the tower". It is really nice to have some habitable venues that aren't actually under player control (i.e. guildhouses and settlements) and the Tower was one of the more meaningful areas that scratched this itch, being bound together by professional concerns more than politics.

The guild house lottery as it stands has meant that small sub-factions have controlled it already.

I don't think it should be a settlement with citizenships. All mages should get a vote, it should not require citizenship to vote just a relevant commitment to an arcane class. By giving it the expectation that it's instead a 'Professor' or 'Dean' title or something as leader.

As it stands, no one in the tower has the mandate to perform any policing of the tower's policies. We've had characters there who claim they can ban people because they own certain quarters, kick people out, and so on. But the truth was, they couldn't.

The tower atleast having the rights of a university to police it's self seems fair in my mind - and by allowing anyone who could be a potential stakeholder to partake would mean people who still have commitment in other nations while occasionally dipping on the academic side.

Having a charter or Thoramind's guidelines are meaningless if there is no one's no one there to enforce them. Requesting DM intervention every time will just be a strain on the team, especially in he-said she-saids. Putting a safe zone with a central RP hub such as it would be a terrible idea, so instead we should have a means to give someone the mandate to defend the tower & maintain order.

Have all arcanists, no matter where they're a citizen, elect their dean. Simple.


great balls of fire
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Re: State of the Arcane Tower

Post by great balls of fire » Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:18 am

I've written at great length privately regarding my thoughts on the Tower. That being said, I'm pretty hopeful that the current DM event will address the issues of enforcing the Tower Policy and handling the tedium of day to day bigg faction administration. The only outstanding concern I have is ending up with the same situation we have now, which is that an NPC heads the Tower and future PCs who were not present for the event will be unable to become wardens, tower mages, and so will be limited in how they can participate with tower related admin, schemes, etc.

In my ideal world, the Tower would be like the Radiant Heart. Mages could sign up with an NPC to join the Tower, giving them a token of identification saying they're part of the Tower, and letting them buy quarters. This would answer the most immediate and common question Tower RP gets, which is, "who do I talk to to join?" while also ensuring there's no gate keeping as to who can participate. If nothing else, I really hope this gets implemented.

I'd also add some cool fun writ system, except it's all fun cool thematic 'exams' players can do to increase from apprentice to journeyman to master, which can either be done alone, or other Mage PCs can be involved. We did a really cool "panel" recently where some tower mages reviewed the magical progress of someone who had signed on to be an apprentice, which was mostly an interview of their magic RP and a tiny bit practical exam as to what they can do. It was extremely cool and really fun, so it'd be cool if that kind of RP could continue for people who opt-in while also allowing an avenue for characters to do their own "independent studies" to advance as they like.

I'd let pcs of "master" rank run for a seat on the [mage council] which essentially functions as the Tower's janitor. These janitors are the people who handle housekeeping, like handling minor disputes, enforcing the codex, whatever it is, being Tower reps for politics. They'd be overseen by [npc mage council] so the DMs can still intervene on any problematic behavior or application of codex through IC or OOC avenues, but largely let the players do it themselves. To prevent "vote swarming," I'd make it so journeymen and up can participate in the vote. **An extremely important part of being a Tower janitor is that they don't get to be exclusive, they must abide by the existing Tower codex. So long as the codex is written such that no one can be arbitarially, I feel like it'll prevent any "club house" issues. As someone whose played in the Tower for a long time, both recently and in the past, and in Boreal Keep, it's pretty easy to do whatever you want and RP in Tower zones. I don't think it's 'great' that players can ignore each other, they should be encouraged to acknowledge each other and co-exist in the same space. Running into your wizard rival should be exciting, not avoided.

I don't know what I'd do to accommodate wardens in this. I've always thought the Tower was criminally under utilized for it's potential to be an isle-wide resource for containing magic problems in Spellhold, but I'm not sure how I'd set it up to ensure fair play while also being cool.

That's all. Looking forward to how the event unfolds :)


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Marsi
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Re: State of the Arcane Tower

Post by Marsi » Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:48 am

Hragli wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:30 am

Yet, Arelith at its best is about player leadership and action driving the world.
[...]
the fiat in-game that seems very insinuative of "this is not a player community, don't try to make this into a player community." You feel like you're Homer, looking around at the ruins. It is all very neat, but the legend wears thin when you realize that the whole thing feels like it was put into timeout, maybe for good.

There is a valid critique to be made of settlement systems. I remember it being vogue in the 2010s to yearn for non-governable settlements. Now we have many of them, and it seems like a failed experiment to me. There is a clear preference for governable areas.

People play Arelith for the intrigue and politics. Maybe not directly, but everything is downstream of what goes on in or between governable locations. Very rarely do I see our static locations vibrate hard enough to generate heat unless there has been a concerted group effort to that exact end (often generating bad blood and proving costly OOC in the long run).

I think it was necessary for the Tower to be made like it is today. "Guildhouse kingdoms" seemed to work ok in a time before Discord had solved the communication and the logistics constraints of "forever management". Now it is too easy for an unimpeachable voice chat junta to get the property once and never let it go.

I'm glad that the Tower is getting some love. I'm sure a better solution will be effected. I do really like the idea of "subfactions that must cohabitate", but that's probably overkill for the Tower. As much as I don't like NPC/writ factions, it makes sense for the Tower, which is more like a professional association than a true faction.

My real problem with the Tower has always been - what is it? What do we want out of it? Fantasy Hogwarts? It's always been a bit bland to me. Even in some of the golden eras you talk about OP, there has always been a feeling to me of lack of purpose besides DM event Avengers HQ and weird/slightly-meta faux-university scholarship of game mechanics.

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Xerah
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Re: State of the Arcane Tower

Post by Xerah » Tue Oct 24, 2023 4:30 am

As someone who’s had a character in leadership in both places, I’m surprised anyone would choose the current arcane tower setup Vs the boreal keep setup.

Yes, I know you can do it all from a small room but despite a few good mage guilds in the arcane tower over the past 3-4 years, it’s still been nothing like the boreal keep (or the old tower) in terms of roleplay impact.

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great balls of fire
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Re: State of the Arcane Tower

Post by great balls of fire » Tue Oct 24, 2023 5:44 am

Marsi wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:48 am

[....]

My real problem with the Tower has always been - what is it? What do we want out of it? Fantasy Hogwarts? It's always been a bit bland to me. Even in some of the golden eras you talk about OP, there has always been a feeling to me of lack of purpose besides DM event Avengers HQ and weird/slightly-meta faux-university scholarship of game mechanics.

I think this, specifically this, is the crux of the Arcane Tower Problem. It's trying to be many different things without committing to any of them, in all counts. The area design is confused with the many things it's trying to be, the application of NPC rule with PC use of the areas, the PC relationship with the Tower as both an area and an institution. There's just no direction, and because of that, everything else is a mess.

What I'm hoping this event does is give the Tower a direction, a 'theme' that it stands for. The Erudite has Evil Mad Wizard club going for it, so I think it'll really help if the Tower also finds some kind of creative direction for it to be a nice set piece for players to work with. Again, if I was god, I would design the Tower to be radically accessible magical knowledge with emphasis on responsible use and creativity, with accoutrements for warlocks, necromancers, bard colleges, etc, all tempered by Spellhold, converted into not-a-jail but a Mystran Containment Vault for "dangerous" artifacts (NOT people). I think it'd make a nice counter to Evil Mad Wizard club that's got a cool theme of being more private with their knowledge to be radically public. Again, that's just what I'd do if this was burger king and I could have it my way.

There's really no 'right' answer when it comes to how to set up the Tower mechanically given how big the server is now. In the good old days, we had a lot less players. But now there's hundreds. It's ideally better to let players manage the work of faction leadership, but then that risks exclusive clubs. Mechanical systems means there's absolutely no oversight or accountability for these players, but is very open to anyone. I suspect the co-existing sub-faction thing could work really well given that players are willing to leave their settlement/secret mage circle RP to work in the Tower, but that's going to be hard to coax. Players want to feel like they belong in a space and have some kind of autonomy and agency in that space, and that's hard to make possible in an organic and inclusive way that's also open to dynamic change that happens in role play.


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