Uh... Elementalist?

[Winkin Blinkin and Jerry]

So, Elementalist. Yes, I am going to open up this can of worms. Not too long ago both hemomancers and elementalists caught a nerf. According to the recently released numbers it's obvious that the class isn't popular, somewhat behind weavemasters ironically.

So! I have not played an elementalist since before the most recent nerf and so am not really in a position to make definitive statements, and I'd be interested in anyone who is more versed in the class than I am to offer their opinions on why elementalist just isn't that enjoyable.

There are three primary points which I noticed about elementalist: their signature spell/spell list, focus regeneration, and the class feature elemental overcharge. I'm going to try my best not to compare elementalist to other classes, but well, it might slip in here and there if it seems pertinent.

Signature spell Elemental Annihilation. Neat in concept, a spell that hits harder with a better damage type the more focus you have available, and from my experience power levels wise it seemed reasonable. However, any almost any situation difficult pve or pvp, you have like… three casts of it in a combat situation factoring in buffs, before it's effectiveness drops off drastically. For me, this just really impacted the effectiveness of the spell, considering as soon as I start getting 75ish% of focus, it's way more effective to utilize different spells.

Focus regeneration, good lord the focus regeneration. Now, I never had too much difficulties keeping my focus up while playing elementalist. For the most part it was like any other summoner except I could throw out a couple of spells decent leveled spells per group, and still have juice left for the boss. Now that epic summons got yeeted for invoker though? (Yes, I know they still get like a six minute monolithic elemental but that's going to be of limited effectiveness) It just feels like to me invoker does not have the kit to manage that playstyle, hemomancer? Totally, even with the nerfs can at least be viable imo with their selection of spells and abilities. However, I can't speak much on this point, only that it feels bad that elementalists, can't summon… a monolithic elemental as good as John Doe cleric/wizard/sorc/shaman/druid/favored soul.

Elemental Overcharge, I really do like this ability and the concept behind it. I always forgot to use it, and when I did inevitably did so at the wrong time and ended up roasting myself to a crisp. Regardless, I think some kind of extra customization would be neat, it sorta feels like a mechanic which got chucked in as an afterthought to make up for elementalist's poor focus management. However, in most cases you'd be better off just to burn focus and not your health if you're in a tough fight/pvp. Which, is really what the ability is geared towards in my opinion with a ten minute cooldown. This is just spit balling on my part, but I'd almost rather it be a toggled ability, which would allow you to swap back and forth between using health and focus.

Overall I love the concept of elementalist but it feels very underwhelming, with the cookies it does get not feeling impactful, and the cookies that are absent makes for a painful pill to swallow. However, I'd be interested to hear from the folks who are playing elementalist now or recently, and who have more current pve/pvp experience than myself. Sorry for the long post guys, thanks.

TLDR:
Elementalist isn't being played much/feels weak. I mentioned three factors which from my somewhat outdated experience with elementalist, I felt like were lacking/could use some work including: Elemental Annihilation, focus regeneration, and elemental overcharge.

[CptJonas]

I just started playing Ele on guldorand start (Currently around level 18).
I am having funn...but....First for your points:

Elemental Annihilation → I think thats kinda point of that spell. Its opener, first round nuke, not something which you should spam.

focus regeneration → Even tho I am using quite few high slot spells for my level (They cost me around 3+ per cast) its fine with rests (which is so nice for once to be allways sleepy on caster)....But issue with that is that moust of your buffs are not in your class. Which means you either dont use rest to recover focus (you play it like martial → starting adventure with as high rest as posible) to not need to rebuf, or you are resting to recover but with each rest you need to put up quite a cost on all your wand/potion buffs. You need consumables as noncaster but rest nearly as ofter as full caster → which goes super into money waiste.
I wouldnt mind, and I personaly dunno why they dont have it, to have atleast basic buffs like animal spell. They would stil cost focus, but then atleast you could decide if you want to start with around 70 focus after rest and be bufed with basic buffs, or spend your coins and have more rest.

elemental overcharge → I like your idea with toggle on...but to be honest that wouldnt fit elementalists fantasy much. Thats more like blood sorcery/hemomancy. I like it as ou sh**t button when I find in middle of fight and run out of focus, but what I wouldnt mind would be if it was for longer durration for such long CD. We are limited by our health anyways so...
I would understand such short duration on such CD if it was completely free casting, but its not.

---

And now to mine point.

You are basicaly forced to be Pure or with dip for skills.
Which is fine for regular casters but for them it makes sense. They case a lot about their CL bcs that means duration for their buff spells and how hard is to dispel those.
But for ele...you dont care for your CL asside maybe spell rezist.

As bonus they cant take any normal casters and they are stripped from all multiclassing options which would give them any synergy (paladin,BG, etc). That would make sense in my mind bcs you dont want infi caster with huge saves/AC bcs of PVP (But in that case I dont understand why warlocks have that save buf option).

So in the end you are basicly forced into either to go full and get our only epic level feature and be ducked on skills or take class which gives ya nothing then those skills.

If this class is supposed to be played nearly pure like it would be nice if we got any bonuses from going over level 20 aside from lvl 28 feature which is super QOL (even tho it comes at super high price) and duration buff on elemental overcharge, it might feel better justified to strip us from best multiclass options and going deep into it.

Right now you literaly get nothing. nearly nothing from charisma and nearly nothing from going over level 20. You kinda might as well go with old warlock/TF to go full CON and take EDR. Even our focus cost reduction stops at level 20.

Personaly sice ele is basicaly full of Evo spells which are moustly reflex saves (Which kinda suck, but is super thematic) it wouldnt be bad to have scaling bonus DC based on level and HARD cha, and make it work with elemental overcharge/reduce its CD → something like
lvl23 - CHA 20+ → +1 DC (doubled while in active elemental overcharge) → elemental overcharge CD reduction by 1m
lvl26 - CHA 22+ → +1 DC (doubled while in active elemental overcharge)→ elemental overcharge CD reduction by 1m
lvl29 - CHA 24+ → +1 DC (doubled while in active elemental overcharge)→ elemental overcharge CD reduction by 3m + while active EO get huge bonus to discipline and concentration (its soft so it wouldnt help that much but still thematic and usable against NPC if tnothing else )

→ Sorry.....This ended once again in sugestion teritory...even tho its like that with lost of feedback...

[BlinkDelight]

As someone who plays Elementalist regularly, and deeply enjoys the class I'll pitch in my thoughts on the topic.

My first character on the server was a True Flame Sorcerer. There was nothing more then I enjoyed then unlimited fireballs, and to this day that remains true for me. The Elementalist is exactly that, a True Flame Sorcerer however buffed (except now focus costs and lower saves as no Dark Blessing or Divine Grace.)

I do play my Elementalist unusually: I completely ignore abilities such as Elemental Overcharge, as well as Elemental Annihilation. I find that if you try to build around them, then you will ultimately have a weaker character. Since Dark Blessing and Divine Grace are prohibited, Cha serves as nothing more then improving Spell DCs. But with unlimited spells all being damage based; Spell Saves are not necessary. Especially when you primarily use Magic Missile spells. My Elementalists are always Dex based, and always Air Pathed. The Air Path is undoubtedly the strongest and most fun out of the four. Adding classes like Earthkin Defender and Specialist you have around 70 AC, and all primary skills such as Use Magic Device, Tumble, and Epic Skill Focus: Lore for ninth level scrolls (which are still useful for things like Timestop and Mordenkainen's Disjunction.)

Overall, the Elementalist is very strong and fun to play. But, it is both difficult to learn and level correctly. It does annoy me I cannot use their unique abilities such as Elemental Overcharge, and Elemental Annihilation as both are highly flavored but results in a weaker and more confusing playstyle. People do not play the Elementalist because it is a complicated class and they try to make these abilities work instead of ignoring them like me.

[CptJonas]

As someone who plays Elementalist regularly, and deeply enjoys the class I'll pitch in my thoughts on the topic.

My first character on the server was a True Flame Sorcerer. There was nothing more then I enjoyed then unlimited fireballs, and to this day that remains true for me. The Elementalist is exactly that, a True Flame Sorcerer however buffed (except now focus costs and lower saves as no Dark Blessing or Divine Grace.)

I do play my Elementalist unusually: I completely ignore abilities such as Elemental Overcharge, as well as Elemental Annihilation. I find that if you try to build around them, then you will ultimately have a weaker character. Since Dark Blessing and Divine Grace are prohibited, Cha serves as nothing more then improving Spell DCs. But with unlimited spells all being damage based; Spell Saves are not necessary. Especially when you primarily use Magic Missile spells. My Elementalists are always Dex based, and always Air Pathed. The Air Path is undoubtedly the strongest and most fun out of the four. Adding classes like Earthkin Defender and Specialist you have around 70 AC, and all primary skills such as Use Magic Device, Tumble, and Epic Skill Focus: Lore for ninth level scrolls (which are still useful for things like Timestop and Mordenkainen's Disjunction.)

Overall, the Elementalist is very strong and fun to play. But, it is both difficult to learn and level correctly. It does annoy me I cannot use their unique abilities such as Elemental Overcharge, and Elemental Annihilation as both are highly flavored but results in a weaker and more confusing playstyle. People do not play the Elementalist because it is a complicated class and they try to make these abilities work instead of ignoring them like me.

I completely know where are coming from, thats why I mentioned that " You kinda might as well go with old warlock/TF to go full CON and take EDR. "...that was me remembering on that old playstyle....
Aka to hell with cha, lets just spam IGMS...

But that whole idea was and still is just people working with their build around flawed design/weakness of class. Elementalist same as TF previously literaly scream Evocation, fireballs, Icebergs, lightning, etc....But in the end as you yourself mentioned it is not its strongest suit....bcs aside from option to spam multiple of them they are still using one of the weakest spells, and not bufing them in any way...Which is shame....once again sacrifice whole class concept and all those cool spells for → Lets again pick all spells with no saves and spam them....

[CptJonas]

Just quick note...
No hate on ya Blink. We all enjoy different playstyle. I just found it shame how every infi caster ends up as what it "used to be" → eg same or similar issues, smae unfulfiled concept.

• Update on Ele → elemental overcharge → I would realy like if wild surge was removed from it. I love it in general...like surges....but issue is that with ele if you get transform/polymorph surge or such you loose all your active spellslots (it gets bugged out and you cant cast until you rest) which makes it super risky and nearly unusable...

[Winkin Blinkin and Jerry]

As someone who plays Elementalist regularly, and deeply enjoys the class I'll pitch in my thoughts on the topic.

My first character on the server was a True Flame Sorcerer. There was nothing more then I enjoyed then unlimited fireballs, and to this day that remains true for me. The Elementalist is exactly that, a True Flame Sorcerer however buffed (except now focus costs and lower saves as no Dark Blessing or Divine Grace.)

I do play my Elementalist unusually: I completely ignore abilities such as Elemental Overcharge, as well as Elemental Annihilation. I find that if you try to build around them, then you will ultimately have a weaker character. Since Dark Blessing and Divine Grace are prohibited, Cha serves as nothing more then improving Spell DCs. But with unlimited spells all being damage based; Spell Saves are not necessary. Especially when you primarily use Magic Missile spells. My Elementalists are always Dex based, and always Air Pathed. The Air Path is undoubtedly the strongest and most fun out of the four. Adding classes like Earthkin Defender and Specialist you have around 70 AC, and all primary skills such as Use Magic Device, Tumble, and Epic Skill Focus: Lore for ninth level scrolls (which are still useful for things like Timestop and Mordenkainen's Disjunction.)

Overall, the Elementalist is very strong and fun to play. But, it is both difficult to learn and level correctly. It does annoy me I cannot use their unique abilities such as Elemental Overcharge, and Elemental Annihilation as both are highly flavored but results in a weaker and more confusing playstyle. People do not play the Elementalist because it is a complicated class and they try to make these abilities work instead of ignoring them like me.

Ironically old true flame was my first character as well, and I honestly enjoyed playing it more than current elementalist, unpopular opinion as elementalist is far and away a better option, but that's just me. Regarding your other points, while elementalist certainly can be built so it's strong, it feels.... idk bad? That you the only way you can make on function well is by explicitly ignoring the class unique abilities, and pretty much much having to avoid the spells matching your elemental focus. After all, every lightning/air themed spell or almost all is based around a reflex save. But regardless, you made some good points that will certainly cause me to experiment some more with build types.

[Amnesy]

Please keep the constructive feedback flowing, there is an Elementalist patch in the pipeline but I can't promise it will land soon, as there is another sizeable chunk (unrelated to invokers) that I want to release beforehand.

[AskRyze]

Having gone through the process of leveling two elementalists to full -

1. I have only pressed Overcharge enough times to know that the juice isn't worth the squeeze. You don't have the hitpoints to use it effectively and you run into a problem where if you use it as a panic button it makes you die faster.

2. You eventually run into the problem where you can't cast enough spells to meaningfully contribute to content at or above a certain level. If you're casting like the game expects you to, especially in epic dungeons, you run out of focus well before your enemies run out of HP.

3. Elementalist has a lot of spells that are effectively the same spell with a pallate swap. It lacks the spells to keep itself alive and it has none of the sustainability that Hemomancer used to have to allow it to live out its class fantasy throughout a whole dungeon, which results in it being overlooked for classes like Warlock, Spellsword, or Cleric variants that can do the thing they are designed for all/most of the day instead of running out of gas three to five packs into the dungeon with fifteen left before clear.

[Winkin Blinkin and Jerry]

I suppose if I were to summarize most of my opinions, elementalist feels to me like

1. Their class spells/abilities don't feel effective/useful, this includes to an extent the bonus spell effects from the elemental paths, since air and water spells are... underwhelming to say the least.

2. Elementalist really suffer when it comes to their spell list, especially in consistent damage spells and defensive spells. Maybe this was just my experience, but the number of spells hemo has in both pve/pvp such as darkbolt, redbolt, or hells inferno, all are dependable damage spells with basically unavoidable damage types. All of which do not have an increased focus cost (I think). By contrast elementalist has.... scorching ray, fire/ice wall, missile storm, and ice storm. All of which are prohibited by increased focus cost. friendly fire, or a short range. Additionally, even in the spells which do require fortitude saving throws, e.g. reliable if reduced damage, elementalist's primarily elemental damage types suffer in pve, especially epic content, when compared to the negative, entropy, or bleeding damage types boasted by hemo.

As for defensive spells, elementalist has basically nothing. Greater Stoneskin, spell mantel... Uh-huh, it doesn't make it fell any better when Greater Stone Skin is also a sixth level spell I think? Competing with options like IGMS, acid sheath, greater dispel, etc.
Overall, I don't think elementalist has a great spell selection overall, falling into the same problem as basic sorcs/wizards when it comes to offensive spell selection. However, elementalist also loses access to most of the strong spells that balance sorc and wizard out to some extent such as mords or gate.

[Paint]

Elementalist would be fine to play if it had powerful, reliable summon options that lasted long enough to be meaningful. Before the spellcraft update, it was pretty scary, but after the spellcraft update, it became a lot more anemic. It can still put out a lot of damage, but hemomancer outpaces it, in my opinion, and has a more interesting and flavorful toolkit to work with.

I think that g.dispel is underrated, even if it's not mords, though. It does a job. Esp. when you can cast it as much as you want.

If the intent of the true-flame replacement was to make a couple of versatile and flavorful magical nuking classes, I think that's been failed, though. When Hemomancer and Elementalist lost their reliable summon options, their population fell off sharply. They don't have the sustainability to offset their damage. Or, in the reverse, the damage to offset their lack of sustainability. This is felt a lot more harshly on Elementalist than Hemomancer, in my opinion, as Hemomancer has more ways to heal built into its offense.

I don't think the solution is giving them summons, though. I'm exhausted with the solution for casters who can't fight being, 'well they have powerful summons so just use those.' I don't think an entire category of classes should all play the same way with cosmetic differences.

Do you?

In my opinion, Elementalist needs more damage on its spells or spells that more reliably apply status effects and/or temporary penalties in order to be worth playing. If giving either of those two things is too risky, then it needs more sustain, mostly in the form of more HP, and reliable ways to recover that HP.

[Winkin Blinkin and Jerry]

Elementalist would be fine to play if it had powerful, reliable summon options that lasted long enough to be meaningful. Before the spellcraft update, it was pretty scary, but after the spellcraft update, it became a lot more anemic. It can still put out a lot of damage, but hemomancer outpaces it, in my opinion, and has a more interesting and flavorful toolkit to work with.

I think that g.dispel is underrated, even if it's not mords, though. It does a job. Esp. when you can cast it as much as you want.

If the intent of the true-flame replacement was to make a couple of versatile and flavorful magical nuking classes, I think that's been failed, though. When Hemomancer and Elementalist lost their reliable summon options, their population fell off sharply. They don't have the sustainability to offset their damage. Or, in the reverse, the damage to offset their lack of sustainability. This is felt a lot more harshly on Elementalist than Hemomancer, in my opinion, as Hemomancer has more ways to heal built into its offense.

I don't think the solution is giving them summons, though. I'm exhausted with the solution for casters who can't fight being, 'well they have powerful summons so just use those.' I don't think an entire category of classes should all play the same way with cosmetic differences.

Do you?

In my opinion, Elementalist needs more damage on its spells or spells that more reliably apply status effects and/or temporary penalties in order to be worth playing. If giving either of those two things is too risky, then it needs more sustain, mostly in the form of more HP, and reliable ways to recover that HP.

Summons feel a little lazy imo when they get used as a balancer for casters so much, and elementalist is no different. If a unique summoning mechanic were to be added I think it would be cool, some kind of short-term elemental associated with the selected element, repeatable to cast, but limited duration/cost, maybe even it could be absorbed on a cooldown to regain focus? Either way, I feel like just adding reskinned summons feels bad, even if it would bring them back on par with other casters for pve purposes. I can't really comment on pvp considering it's been several months since I had a pvp encounter on an elementalist, but it did feel strong in group fights.

[BlinkDelight]

My only suggestions to improve Elemental Overcharge and Paths would be a stacking increase of DC's for Evocation spells. For example:

Level: 15+ (req Hard Charisma 18+): +1 (DC)
Level: 18+ (req Hard Charisma 18+): +1 (DC)
Level: 21+ (req Hard Charisma 22+): +1 (DC)
Level: 24+ (req Hard Charisma 22+): +1 (DC)
Level: 27+ (req Hard Charisma 24+): +1 (DC)
Level: 30 (req Hard Charisma 24+): +3 (DC)

For a max total DC bonus of +8.

This would heavily incentivize focusing into CHA and actively using this ability as part of your rotation instead of ignoring it completely. Since most characters on the server already have high Reflex Saves in addition to readily accessible Evasion and Improved Evasion it would balance this class fairly.

My second suggestion would be for Paths. At level 10, increase the DC's of your Path elemental spells by 1, and again at 20th level. For a maximum bonus of +10 from both this change and from the updated Elemental Overcharge.

Using Meteor Swarm with ESF: Evocation, Max Cha, and the updated Elemental Overcharge with new Fire Path ((assuming Meteor Swarm is made a Fire Path spell) would be a DC 53. Not at all hard for a DEX based character to avoid. But high enough to effect epic level monsters and other players. Keep in mind, spell resistance and creature resistances are still factors but you would finally start using a variety of usually weaker spells instead of just Missile Storms.

[RedGiant]

I was originally going to do a general invoker feedback thread, but here we go.

As others have noted, I think Invokers currently suffer from an identity crises. I think there was a fear of making them too powerful, but they have pulled up short when compared to most of the other casting classes. I also /think/ the intent of Invoker was, like True Flame, to make a primarily offensive caster.

So here are some of the problems as I see them.

• Components: Supposedly gets Eschew Components at 14, but doesn't really get it until level 28. Incidentally, this is why you see so many pure builds, because on an pure offensive caster, who will be casting more than any other type of caster, who wants to deal with this? [Easy remedy here would be to actually give them full eschew earlier. I would recommend the three tiers of shedding components simply follow the path levels, culminating at 20.]

• Summons: See above. Elementalist really only functions well with a summons. [There are several remedies to this, from giving them path-related summons locked to their element to foregoing this entirely for other suggestions on this list.]

• Armor: They have the light armor feat, but cannot make use of it outside the sub-par custom invoker armors. [Here I recommend dropping the lvl 6 Silent Spell perk and just giving them ASF -20% or something, so they have genuine light armor options.]

• Consecutive Casting Penalties: As consummate offensive casters, sometimes you want to hit them with the same thing. Sometimes, only one of your spells works. Designers might think this boring to pound them with the same spell, but so is getting hit with the same sword. What this has forced me to do is simply cue the best spells in a row. Now instead of pressing 1, 1, 1, I press 1-2, 1-2, 1-2. This is just annoying. [Recommend ditching consecutive cast penalties altogether.]

• Increased Focus Penalties: See above, but many worthwhile spells have penalties of +5.0 focus. This is insanely high. If you happen to need one twice in a row, God help you. [Here I recommend ditching them altogether or at least drastically lowering them.]

• Focus: Some of the changes to focus helped, but mine is still always out, especially before level 20. [Several combinations of remedies here are possible based on other action items from the list. E.g. If you give them a summons, this is probably fine. If you take away casting penalties, same.]

• Signature Ability: Many have said it, but Elemental Overcharge is a raw deal that almost no one uses. This ability turns you into a bleeding target with the further 'perk' of potentially catastrophic self-sabotage (i.e. casting damage, -5AC, wild surge). Elementalists are supposed to be able to draw power from their surroundings, yet Hemomancers do this far better with Red Harvest. Red Harvest regains focus and damages the Invoker's enemies, potentially also striking them with fear. That's 3 good things versus the Elementalist's 3 bad. [Here I would recommend a rework of the signature ability to either grant limited infini-casting on the current timer applied only to elemental-based spells (e.g. fireball, wall of ice, etc.) - OR- rework it into a damage burst-effect that also recover focus. This I would envision as a path-based frost nova that radiates from the caster, damages his/her surrounding, pulls in the focus, and cycles on a Red Harvest-like cool down.]

• Familiars: These seem a hallmark of arcane classes, why don't Invokers get them? [Recommend giving Invokers Familiars, maybe custom-skinned, invoker-only familiars?]

If you made it this far, you are a beast.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

I actually quite like elementalist so far. It is the first caster I have made that isn't purely support. The few points I do find difficult though I'll list

The build feels very squishy. I'm sure the goal is kill it before it gets to you but the ac is pretty low. Now take that with a grain of salt, I am not good at building casters and tend to wreck good ones with some non-powerful choices.

The spells I really enjoy slinging at higher lvls tend to injure companions. So, it's a trick for me to hold the summon back, use the AoE spell then send it in and hope I can get it to take all the attention and focus or that I can kill things with no more than a second blast. Otherwise, they are on me and again, low ish ac squishy, I can get in trouble fast. It's either that or I'm killing my summon while fighting them, not to mention if I actually travel with anyone. People don't like it when you nuke them.

Final thing, they are listed on the wiki to get Auto quicken II at I think its lvl 15? On the PGCC when deciding the build layout I got it but in actual game I haven't. Not sure if this is a bug or was a change that didn't get documented. Not that its overly important but its a feature that could be nice that is not gone.

[AllPizzasArePersonal]

Focus Management: Elementalists run out of focus very quickly and do not have a way to manage their focus, other than by just not casting. A dynamic where a caster needs to conserve their strength for "when they need it" very much pigeon holes them into needing to be summon bots to have a consistent threat during PVE. And that's a really unfun dynamic.

I think Elemental Overcharge was designed in part to assist with focus management, but because it's also heavily tied into a burst window button, it doesn't end up panning out that way.

My suggestion here would be to not try and make them summon reliant but instead give them a way to recover the majority of their focus between encounters (either through some kind of draining game similar to hemomancers or through a simpler mechanic where they can draw focus while not in combat - e.g., gathering strength from their surroundings). There are plenty of ranged, high damage blasters that don't need to conserve resources between encounters.

The paths are kind of bland: They just end up being passive stat boosts. And that's sad to see, although I do think it's hard to have something mechanically interesting as a path that doesn't also end up ballooning the class. When I see something like your level 5 feat giving you a perk at level 23 (Fire 1) , it just seems like a missed opportunity.

I guess I'd like to see these eventually get an overhaul so they were an actual choice.

[Kenji]

Something's being cooked, hang on tight.