MEGATHREAD - DWEOMERCRAFTING REWORK ON PGCC

[In Sorrow We Trust]

I'm confused. You show me a screenshot without any t3 stuff.

I agree with you that it doesnt narrow the gap between the rich and the poor/new as I said, I dont think that's the focus of the update at all.

been watching the market for t3 runes completely empty out since the update was announced, used to go to a few shops that had plenty of t3 tailored runes and most of them are gone

[Curve]

I've had the same experience of zero t3 runes for sale. This could be people holding onto them for when the new system is released (bummer for anyone who wants to gear a character now) or it could be the same thing as artifacts, where you would never see quality ones being sold in shops because the players/characters who are most able to obtain them don't need the gold from the sale and therefore can just hang onto them or give them to friends.

We could be walking into a world where it was less annoying and expensive to gear 5% items than to gear top end 'new' items. I hope that is not the situation, but it is defiantly a possibility worth considering for the contributors and DEVs who are creating and okaying this system.  

[Shadowy Reality]

Maybe we could finally consider using lower tier runes to craft higher tier ones? This way dweomercraft wouldn't be so dependant on T3 drops themselves. And as a nice side-effect it would increase the price for t1-t2 mats to the point where finding a t1 blueleaf after a 2 hour dungeon might not make you cry.

Changing how runic mats drop would also go a long way. You should always get something when you are off the timer. And when running a runic dungeon with a group everyone should get a shot at runics, rather than it being one chance and putting everyone on the timer if something drops.

[Amateur Hour]

We could be walking into a world where it was less annoying and expensive to gear 5% items than to gear top end 'new' items. I hope that is not the situation, but it is defiantly a possibility worth considering for the contributors and DEVs who are creating and okaying this system.  

From what VERY few t3 runes I have seen for sale lately, it looks like we're heading for a future where fully kitting out characters is going to cost somewhere between 8 and 10 million unless T3 runes become significantly easier to obtain.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

i will say that the team is aware of the rarity issue, especially of t2 and t3, we're just looking at options to address it.

[Yvesza]

I'm so relieved to hear that, I've already seen people massively increasing the prices of runes (Literally tripling the prices in the span of a few days.) This was all days after the new system was pushed to the PGCC .

[Peacelily]

i will say that the team is aware of the rarity issue, especially of t2 and t3, we're just looking at options to address it.

One thing I very much do think is happening is people are buying them to prepare to resell. This is something that happens fairly often, and it's just another way that established PCs have legs up on new ones. Would staff be able to look into whether that's happening, and consider quiet words, since if it's being done, it's being done based on meta knowledge?

[A1RMAN]

i will say that the team is aware of the rarity issue, especially of t2 and t3, we're just looking at options to address it.

One thing I very much do think is happening is people are buying them to prepare to resell. This is something that happens fairly often, and it's just another way that established PCs have legs up on new ones. Would staff be able to look into whether that's happening, and consider quiet words, since if it's being done, it's being done based on meta knowledge?

It's also might be because people are preparing to make some new gear for themselves, because they expect for prices to go up.

As for T2 runes, it's normal for them to get more expensive, since they were ridiculously underpriced and nobody needed them. How much was the T2 rune when everyone was using addy plate and helmet? Around 200k? I don't remember exactly.

[AstralUniverse]

It makes absolutely no sense to start hoarding t3 runes now that their stock is only going down. The conclusions some of you reach about how much gearing is going to cost, and that people must be hoarding runes rn like crazy... I just dont see why.

[Peacelily]

That would be easy to check. If someone has one or two bladed ones, sure. Those with 5+? Those are not for themselves.

[AstralUniverse]

That would be easy to check. If someone has one or two bladed ones, sure. Those with 5+? Those are not for themselves.

No need to check if it's not a problem. hard 5s are already disabled and these runes who are supposedly hoarded in storage will just worth less later.

[PowerWord Rage]

That would be easy to check. If someone has one or two bladed ones, sure. Those with 5+? Those are not for themselves.

No need to check if it's not a problem. hard 5s are already disabled and these runes who are supposedly hoarded in storage will just worth less later.

With Hard 5% gone and T3 runes being the must-sought after for end game gearing, the price can only possibly go up and not down.
Inflation is real.

On a side note, if every piece of T3 rune is going to cost a million coin or close to, it makes hoarding coins from burning them in the basin to, as a resource to hire goons to equip them IC etc. The age of merchants are approaching....

Edit :
On the matter of gold sink, i think that having T3 runes being priced high is actually a double-edged sword for even rich players.

The fact remains that the this new dweomercraft update will make T3 runes becoming a 100% required item isn't wrong because i am one of the player that used to do 5% hard enchant on 5skills + 1ability + 1 unisave followed by the hard enchant which makes T3 Runes redundant unless i'm gearing for crafted / looted equips.

Hence, with T3 Runes becoming 100% required and probable (Most of us think the same) price increase, It actually devalues the weight of gold coins. Therefore, players that used to hoard 50 million or even 100 millions actually became poorer with this update.

For example, the 11 equipment slots, including shield and if we estimate a single rune to be close to 1 million, it will effectively result in a player with 50 million, only able to fully geared 4 or 5 players compared to the current situation.
Gearing a new character from bottom to their brim through roleplay will need to be extremely careful with decision now...you wouldn't want to invest wrongly when the cost is so high.

Ironically, this update devalues the weight of Gold Coins but it actually makes Gold Coins carries more -weight- than it ever did from how i perceive it.

[AstralUniverse]

You estimate that runes will be worth 1 mil, and I estimate that runes have already been worth more than that in the past couple of months. Players were just slow to react (and it's also kinda meta-gaming to suddenly double the price of all the runes in your shop for some cosmic reasons) and all the runes were sold and used. I am not under the impression that rich folks are keeping mountains of runes in their storage, because the smart thing to do would be to hard 5 items and rune them asap in the past few months, so I dont think there are piles of hoarded t3 runes by anyone. If you had a t3 rune right before hard 5s were disabled that rune was probably worth even 2 mil or more. That's why I dont see the logic in hoarding runes until hard 5s were disabled. Now, after they were disabled, I can see the logic in starting to hoard them again, but it means you didnt use all your runes to hard 5 items asap before the update and that means less legacy runic hard 5s floating around. Hence, their value only goes down from here even if not by much, and I do not think rich folk have hoarded them like crazy in recent times, and were actually incentivized by the situation to get rid of all of them for absurd amounts of coin, unlike before, and probably after too. I recall when runes were first introduced they they were easily worth 3mil on some of them, god-save on basin wasnt guaranteed so hard5 items were also worth millions, and even with all that, the game didnt feel much different over all.

About gold sinks and how much it will cost to gear a character? You're right that the demand for runes will not drop greatly because now everyone needs a t3 to make items, but it will still drop, not rise. This is of course speculation. We'll see. 1 mil for rune, in a system where time consumption is no longer a factor (unlike difficult hard 5 attempts with +2 skill x5 within them), doesnt sound that horrible to me on paper.

[svet]

Before all, I would like to state I am in favor of the new system as it is definitely not fun slaving away at a basin, but then again slaving away at repetitive dungeons is not exactly great either.

1 mil for rune, in a system where time consumption is no longer a factor (unlike difficult hard 5 attempts with +2 skill x5 within them), doesnt sound that horrible to me on paper.

The rework sure does remove the time consumption when it comes to godsaving items that are later turned into hard 5%, but having to make use of a so expensive rune several times on top of a significant fee to get bearable saves/the skills you need on some builds, does this not make time consumption and RNG a factor again?

Time consumption:

• Acquiring a ridiculous amount of gold.
• Visiting runics constantly.

The RNG:

• Hoping you get the type of rune you need from the chest as well as hoping it was not empty in the first place.
• Hoping you get an innately runed item with the right properties that has a T3 rune from a lieutenant NPC.

Personally, I hope by the time the rework is out, rarity of runes and pricing of the enchantments will be also adjusted to bring us closer to how much hard 5% used to cost prior to the introduction of this idea (250-350k).

[Shadowy Reality]

T3 runes were definitely not worth over 1 million the past months.

Some T3 runes were useful because they allowed enchanting on items that are not trivial to get. Like masterly damask weapons, or doing a soft 5% on some crafted item and then applying a T3 rune. They could also be useful if you did some stranger items such as +skill +skill +skill +specific save +specific save +stat then T3 rune into another +stat.

With that said, hard 5%s had typically been cheaper and better than plained T3 runed items for most items. If you are going for 5 skills, uni saves and two stats a T3 rune will do nothing for you. In fact, if you went down to 3 skills, uni saves and 2 stats your item would on average cost somewhere around 200k, which is far below any T3 rune and the end result could not be replicated with T3 runes.

[A1RMAN]

We'll see. 1 mil for rune, in a system where time consumption is no longer a factor (unlike difficult hard 5 attempts with +2 skill x5 within them), doesnt sound that horrible to me on paper.

I don't think T3 runes (probably only really theurglass and djinn) costing 1 million is a problem as well. It's where they should be. It's much easier to make gold now than it was before. Sailing, commoners, appraisers made the big difference. Back in the day I used to grind Sibayad tombs and thought I am cool, because I make 50k a run.

You can understand people being worried, but it would really help if they would just understand that they will be able to equip their new characters with very good gear by using only T2 runes. The best rune will only give you 2 more enchanting points. It is not crucial for the absolute majority of the server.

I really recommend everyone who is too worried, to grab a cup a tea, relax and do some gear planning for their character using only T2 runes, aka 30 points to spend per custom item. You will get the kind of stuff that people were craving and going for 5% before.

Oh, you've made one of the rare builds that require 32 point gear? Don't worry. You'll make your 30-point gear first, and then gradually upgrade your stuff. And don't forget that people will stop throwing away the generic loot runic items. You can use them as well.

And after you'll do that, you will start to hoard gold. You will have millions without much of anything to spend it on. Ironically, buying an expensive rune and gifting it to someone will be one of the few options.

[AstralUniverse]

Personally, I hope by the time the rework is out, rarity of runes and pricing of the enchantments will be also adjusted to bring us closer to how much hard 5% used to cost prior to the introduction of this idea (250-350k).

If you're hoping to see entire complete items with t3 runes costing players 250k-300k gold when the dust settles let me tell you that's not going to happen because wtf are we supposed to do with all of our gold after we make a full set at about 1/3 or 1/4 of the previous costs of what was hard 5 + rune. That just doesnt sound healthy for the server at all. I do hope that we'll be able to make items with t2 runes for about that much tho.

[Diegovog]

Maybe we could finally consider using lower tier runes to craft higher tier ones? This way dweomercraft wouldn't be so dependant on T3 drops themselves. And as a nice side-effect it would increase the price for t1-t2 mats to the point where finding a t1 blueleaf after a 2 hour dungeon might not make you cry.

This, please.

[Aradin]

Maybe we could finally consider using lower tier runes to craft higher tier ones? This way dweomercraft wouldn't be so dependant on T3 drops themselves. And as a nice side-effect it would increase the price for t1-t2 mats to the point where finding a t1 blueleaf after a 2 hour dungeon might not make you cry.

This, please.

100%, though I feel like it would make more thematic sense to have the upscaling be on the materials themselves rather than the finished runes. A completed rune feels like a "done" item, you know? But the T3 runic materials are often detailed in their descriptions as being the same as their matching T1 materials, just a bigger amount/more concentrated/etc. So something like (just pulling example conversation rates out of thin air here):

• Five T1 runic materials to make one T2 runic material of the same type.

• Three T2 runic materials to make one T3 runic material of the same type.

Then you'd just craft your runes as normal. It would take 15 T1 materials and a lot of crafting points to make a masterwork rune, but you'd never need to find a single T2 or T3 material to do so. A brutal conversion rate, but it would still make every T1 material you find worth holding onto so you can eventually use it to make better runes. I'm sure some more number-minded person than me could figure out the right conversion rate for such a thing.

[AstralUniverse]

It would be a horrible idea before, but in the new system, upgrading rune materials would not break the game because any item can take any rune once regardless of the item's number of properties, and regardless of the rune's grade, the difference is then that the item is limited to 28 or 30 points instead of 32 for masterwork runes if I understand it correctly. I'm in favor of that too.

[Diegovog]

Maybe we could finally consider using lower tier runes to craft higher tier ones? This way dweomercraft wouldn't be so dependant on T3 drops themselves. And as a nice side-effect it would increase the price for t1-t2 mats to the point where finding a t1 blueleaf after a 2 hour dungeon might not make you cry.

This, please.

100%, though I feel like it would make more thematic sense to have the upscaling be on the materials themselves rather than the finished runes. A completed rune feels like a "done" item, you know? But the T3 runic materials are often detailed in their descriptions as being the same as their matching T1 materials, just a bigger amount/more concentrated/etc. So something like (just pulling example conversation rates out of thin air here):

• Five T1 runic materials to make one T2 runic material of the same type.

• Three T2 runic materials to make one T3 runic material of the same type.

Then you'd just craft your runes as normal. It would take 45 T1 materials and a lot of crafting points to make a masterwork rune, but you'd never need to find a single T2 or T3 material to do so. A brutal conversion rate, but it would still make every T1 material you find worth holding onto so you can eventually use it to make better runes. I'm sure some more number-minded person than me could figure out the right conversion rate for such a thing.

This is reasonable. 15 T1 seems to match some prices on T3. If you consider each T1 worth about 23k, then it would cost about 350k for a T3.
I think it would still make T2 expensive, but considering T2 is only 2pts away from T3 it's ok. Also some T2 like theurglass is used in spheres of gravity, so they are pretty worth it.

[Curve]

A side effect of making it so lesser runic materials build up to better ones is that people will be unable to find those lesser runes for sale because everyone will be gathering them to make higher end runes.

[Diegovog]

A side effect of making it so lesser runic materials build up to better ones is that people will be unable to find those lesser runes for sale because everyone will be gathering them to make higher end runes.

Even if that would happen (which clearly wouldn't as there would be a much higher availability than their own personal need), it would help frustrated people who only run into lesser runes and happen to have to share it between those in the party. Reduces frustration, increases potential to it and breaks down costs into smaller pieces so people can buy smaller parts of a whole without needing huge chunks of gold.

[PowerWord Rage]

Maybe we could finally consider using lower tier runes to craft higher tier ones? This way dweomercraft wouldn't be so dependant on T3 drops themselves. And as a nice side-effect it would increase the price for t1-t2 mats to the point where finding a t1 blueleaf after a 2 hour dungeon might not make you cry.

This, please.

100%, though I feel like it would make more thematic sense to have the upscaling be on the materials themselves rather than the finished runes. A completed rune feels like a "done" item, you know? But the T3 runic materials are often detailed in their descriptions as being the same as their matching T1 materials, just a bigger amount/more concentrated/etc. So something like (just pulling example conversation rates out of thin air here):

• Five T1 runic materials to make one T2 runic material of the same type.

• Three T2 runic materials to make one T3 runic material of the same type.

Then you'd just craft your runes as normal. It would take 15 T1 materials and a lot of crafting points to make a masterwork rune, but you'd never need to find a single T2 or T3 material to do so. A brutal conversion rate, but it would still make every T1 material you find worth holding onto so you can eventually use it to make better runes. I'm sure some more number-minded person than me could figure out the right conversion rate for such a thing.

This is actually a positive suggestion as many will agree.
The only downside to this is that it will further increase the price for all runic materials.
Especially true for the lesser ones.
Those that used to worth 10 - 15k might just see a major price increase.

The market is going to follow this model which i believe that everyone will agree.
A Single T3 Rune will not cost more than Three T2 Rune
A Single T2 Rune will not cost more than Five T1 Rune
Hence...T1 Rune which rest at the bottom of the pyramid will see a major price increase compared to those that rest on top.

End of the day, T3 Rune will have it's price fixed at high price with no means of controlling because it's price increase is not only from their scarcity but also because their price affects what the lesser rune would cost and because lesser rune price is high, T3 rune will not be low. A vicious cycle, i say.

[Xerah]

I think the suggestion of an NPC would help a lot to control prices. You can get it cheaper if you have your own but the fixed price sets a cap and actually removes gold from the economy (which doesn’t happen right now)