MEGATHREAD - DWEOMERCRAFTING REWORK ON PGCC

[MRFTW]

Removing hard 5% now is too late. Plenty of hard 5'd Lantanese Rings / Rings of Hiding floating around already, the horse has already bolted in that regard.

[Coolguy McMagic]

Removing hard 5% now is too late. Plenty of hard 5'd Lantanese Rings / Rings of Hiding floating around already, the horse has already bolted in that regard.

Those rings will be made significantly more powerful under the new system than they were as hard 5s.

[Diegovog]

Throwing some random ideas.

I noticed that in the basin you can test a bunch and then click the [X] button to remove a dweomer and try different runes before applying and that's so good. Even better that you can still go back to the basin and work further on the same item without the pressure of finalizing it in one go.
I was wondering... What if sorcerers and ench spec wizards got a cookie to modify already applied stuff to items and be refunded their cost to play around dweomer even more?
Say... I put a shadow choker into the basin and I don't want the strength on it, I remove, get refunded 8 points and am able to change it into something else. Would it be too op? Too much freedom?
Perhaps being able to change only basin'ed items? So if you regret adding spellcraft you can swap to lore and be happy about it?

[RedGiant]

I just want to weigh in, as many have, for some sort of continuance of the hard 5%. I think what many in the player base are asking for in this is the chance, however slim, to be able to create mechanically unique items.

What I just said is loaded, obviously, but here is what I mean. Recipes are open to everyone and, in the end, just require the right combination of skill, resources, class, race, etc.

Theoretically, 5%s are open to everyone as well, but these requires time, gold, patience, and geometrically scaling luck (.05->.0025->.000125->00000626, etc.)

IN full disclosure, on all my character since 2008, I probably have made 3 to 5 hard 5% items, and certainly no doubles or triples. So I am arguing for something that I have lacked the patience and geometrically scaling luck to pursue. But I do not begrudge those that have and I like the option being on the table.

Even though it's very cool, when you tell of your legendary sword that, as it turns out, is just a profaned decapitator, people tune out real quick.

On the contrary, when you tell of your legendary sword that is a runeless keened, masterly damask scimitar with +4 positive and +1d4 negative, players magically respond appropriately.

In short, I think we need some rewards for the long-game playstyle and I think we desperately want the ability to create mechanically unique items to stay in player hands. If there is some super egregious combination, such as with saves, simply code that out, but let us have our 'improbabilities" and "legendary items", because the game is simply less magical without them.

[jubisloviu]

It appears the disciple's wraps is unable to be enchanted.

I dont know if this behaviour is intended, but if it is, it's quite a shame as monks dont have much else in choice to wear, and they struggle to fit all they need on their gear.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

It appears the disciple's wraps is unable to be enchanted.

I dont know if this behaviour is intended, but if it is, it's quite a shame as monks dont have much else in choice to wear, and they struggle to fit all they need on their gear.

this is a bug. see the bug megathread for another example of this happening

we discovered that there are some items that were given incorrect variables. as part of the update we'll have to go back and fix all of these so that they can be enchanted again. it would be helpful if we can track down items like this similarly and have them in a nice neat list.

[Vylarah]

Would there perhaps be any potential to add (a probably defined list of predetermined) VFX to the list of possible enchants for weapons, so that people can make weapons look more unique? For an appropriate cost, of course.

[Sincra]

Throwing some random ideas.

I noticed that in the basin you can test a bunch and then click the [X] button to remove a dweomer and try different runes before applying and that's so good. Even better that you can still go back to the basin and work further on the same item without the pressure of finalizing it in one go.
I was wondering... What if sorcerers and ench spec wizards got a cookie to modify already applied stuff to items and be refunded their cost to play around dweomer even more?
Say... I put a shadow choker into the basin and I don't want the strength on it, I remove, get refunded 8 points and am able to change it into something else. Would it be too op? Too much freedom?
Perhaps being able to change only basin'ed items? So if you regret adding spellcraft you can swap to lore and be happy about it?

If we do something like this it will be in limited form, such as once ever per item, potentially with large cost or component involved.

I just want to weigh in, as many have, for some sort of continuance of the hard 5%. I think what many in the player base are asking for in this is the chance, however slim, to be able to create mechanically unique items.

(...)

In short, I think we need some rewards for the long-game playstyle and I think we desperately want the ability to create mechanically unique items to stay in player hands. If there is some super egregious combination, such as with saves, simply code that out, but let us have our 'improbabilities" and "legendary items", because the game is simply less magical without them.

Not happening.
5% is detrimental in it's design headspace for allowing inbalance, inequality and a lack of ceiling to power vs time.
If there are to be rewards for long term play it should be coming from outside the core of gearing.

Would there perhaps be any potential to add (a probably defined list of predetermined) VFX to the list of possible enchants for weapons, so that people can make weapons look more unique? For an appropriate cost, of course.

Not in the initial release.
If it is to be added it will come in future additions but it is something already considered likely.

[Edens_Fall]

Is the ability to add Damage Immunity 5% going to be brought over to the new system?

[PowerWord Rage]

Is the ability to add Damage Immunity 5% going to be brought over to the new system?

I hope not. It would be a nightmare if the 11 slots are all able to be enchanted with damage immunity regardless if it's simply bludgeoning, piercing or slashing separately.

[Svrtr]

Is the ability to add Damage Immunity 5% going to be brought over to the new system?

I hope not. It would be a nightmare if the 11 slots are all able to be enchanted with damage immunity regardless if it's simply bludgeoning, piercing or slashing separately.

I believe they are referring to non physical immunities which already are enchantable in the current system, where as physical are not

[Edens_Fall]

Correct! The 5% Immunity against Fire, Acid, Positive Energy etc.

[Coolguy McMagic]

Just wanted to point out that the rework will be nerf to ashwood ranged weapons (the good ones). Under the current system, you get to put one property on them from the innate rune and then another from a T3 carpentry rune for a total of two extra properties.
Under the new system, you only get the 8 points from the innate rune, so you can't get another two stats from them.

[A1RMAN]

Make sure to take a look at:

+2 Specific saves costing 0 points
DI and DR vs energy type costing 0 points

Improved Saving Throws vs Fear, Death costing a ton of points

EDIT:

AC bonus vs Alignment (and other groups) might need a price lowering as well. Currently at 3 points per 1 AC.

[Quidix]

I love the concept and UI of this change – it’s very exciting and thank you for the immense effort.

I have a few concerns, which I hope can be considered:

1. Crafted items which could previously be 5% and then runed for +2 stats provide a big
Problem: An Enchanted Fine Silk Shirt could previously be 5% and then Runed, adding +2 stats. Under the new system, it only gains 6 points when runed, which is not enough for a single stat. Similarly for Sargeant’s Cloak. This creates a big advantage for legacy crafted items (+4 stats with these two examples alone).
Solution: Add Runic to these items, and allow the ability to add a Rune after that.

2. Removal of the server’s main goldsink
Problem: Runes will be in huge demand, the server’s main gold sink is gone.
Solution: Add an NPC which can add runes onto items, for a fixed gold price (say 550k for master, 150k for greater, 40k for lesser).

3. Four stat items
Problem: Previously, one could enchant +2 skill, +1 specific save, +1 ability, +1 ability => 5% it for another +1 ability => apply a master rune for +1 ability (that is, +4 stats). Removing the option has build implications and provides an immense grandfathering advantage to old characters.
Solution: Reduce stat cost to 7 (down from 8) to keep things equal.

4. Runes and +1 ability
Problem: Runes are most commonly used to add +1 ability, under the new system they grant 6 points, which is not enough for +1 ability (8 points)
Solution: Increase runes to +7 points, combined with earlier suggestion to reduce stat cost to 7 points.

5. Grandfathering pick-and-choose
Problem: Grandfathered characters can use all the old powerful hard 5%s, and then also use the new system in the niche cases where it benefits them (e.g. rings). So, they become even more powerful.
Solution: Put large restrictions on grandfathered items, making it so you can only equip ‘new’ items if you have no old items equipped. I hope other grandfathering restrictions are also considered.

[A1RMAN]

2. Removal of the server’s main goldsink
Problem: Runes will be in huge demand, the server’s main gold sink is gone.

Solution: Add an NPC which can add runes onto items, for a fixed gold price (say 550k for master, 150k for greater, 40k for lesser).

The gold sink is a good question. But if the runes will be in high demand, this will naturally increase their price. The runes costing more, will, in part, help with the gold sink question.

Limiting the prices with NPC mechanics will drop the market price of the runes, which will make things even worse.

3. Four stat items
Problem: Previously, one could enchant +2 skill, +1 specific save, +1 ability, +1 ability => 5% it for another +1 ability => apply a master rune for +1 ability (that is, +4 stats).

Now you can make 4 stats easily and 4 stat +1 specific save after you find the right loot item.

4. Runes and +1 ability
Problem: Runes are most commonly used to add +1 ability, under the new system they grant 6 points, which is not enough for +1 ability (8 points)
Solution: Increase runes to +7 points, combined with earlier suggestion to reduce stat cost to 7 points.

This change would actually make the grandfathered items OP, because it will allow adding another Ability to a 5% item that didn't had a rune on it. THAT would be a mistake and affect the balance.

5. Grandfathering pick-and-choose
Problem: Grandfathered characters can use all the old powerful hard 5%s, and then also use the new system in the niche cases where it benefits them (e.g. rings). So, they become even more powerful.
Solution: Put large restrictions on grandfathered items, making it so you can only equip ‘new’ items if you have no old items equipped. I hope other grandfathering restrictions are also considered.

I agree that some items like Fine Silk Shirt could use a 8-point rune (make a list?). But overall the value of grandfathered items in this regard is highly overrated. Although there are probably a few neat items that people were able to design through years, most of the gear just cannot effectively be made better and, most importantly, cannot possibly make the characters stronger.

The thing with 5% gear is that it was always planned to cover all the important stats character needs. People already have maxed +12 abilities, most important skills and saves on their gear. Let's look at the standard 5% belt:

2 ability
uni saves
5 skills

You can throw a MW rune on top for 6 points. What are you going to add? Cannot add ability, cannot add more saves. Skills? 5 skills probably covered everything that makes difference for your character. Some people will find some important skill to add, but most people will add utility things like Sail, Open Lock, Disable Trap. It doesn't make the character any stronger.

And this is the thing with the majority of 5% items - there is nothing to add with 6 points. I went through my characters and planned out what I can do. In the beginning I was like: "Now we're talking! I am going to bump my skills through the roof." But the result didn't show much room for improvement. A couple of specific saves here and there and some some semi-useful or niche skill enchantments I can add. It doesn't make and significant difference for PvE or PvP, because, again, everything important is already covered. Cannot add Discipline to an item twice.

The new system provides quick and easy access to 3-stat items. 3 abi, 3 skills, 2 spec saves is easy to make. And the jewelery is now stronger. I will have to drop some 5% items now, because the easy access to 3-stat allows me to make some better items.

Also, speaking of 5% items, it should be mentioned what people are actually losing with the new system. All the effort put into Rings of Hiding, Lanten rings, Belts of Seeing and a ton of other stuff just goes out of the window. These items will now will be made stronger and will be cheap and easy to make. I remember spending a million gold on Rings of Insight without success. And now you will just go and make it in 5 minutes for 35k.

So, if someone put a tremendous effort into making some double 5% item, maybe they should just be given a right to have that. I don't have a single item like that, since the single 5% process brought enough frustration already. Can't imagine what they've come through to make a double. Personally, I don't care if they have 1 more ability on some item. I just don't want good people to quit out of frustration.

[Curve]

Having full WIS to a WMs gear on top of STR/CON/Uni/skills is +6 will or the equivalent of a pre and epic feat.

Having full STR on a rogues gear on top of DEX/CON/Uni/skills is the equivalent of pre and epic specialization.

These items can (and 100% will) be moved around social groups.

If the argument is that it is unfair to people who invested time why not let old versions of classes be grandfathered? Those people spent time too.

We nerf all kinds of problematic things out of the server, what is different about items? Why should any number of builds have to suck it up for the betterment of the server and yet we allow items that unbalance things continue to exists in a manner than will benefit only a few?

My suggestion would be to make these items non-transferable. If we are worried about angering people, allow them to keep their items but disallow those items from being passed to the next generation of their social groups characters.

That being a half measure that does not address the characters hanging around that are more powerful than current characters can achieve, but at least it is something.

((If this feedback should be in a different place, or is inappropriate please delete or I can post it elsewhere.))

[Curve]

I also like Quidix’s idea about an NPC that applies runes to gear for a cost. This serves two purposes, artificially capping vendor prices for runes and allows everyone to access the same gear without relying on the whims of other players.

[98lbs of sad carryweight]

People are using "gold sink" wrong.

Gold sink = makes money poof from the total pool.
Games need that because we create money out of nothing by hitting infinite spawning mobs.
Buying runes off other players just moves it in a circle, that is not a sink.

[AstralUniverse]

People are using "gold sink" wrong.

Gold sink = makes money poof from the total pool.
Games need that because we create money out of nothing by hitting infinite spawning mobs.
Buying runes off other players just moves it in a circle, that is not a sink.

Gold never leaving the system is already an issue and has always been, and the difference between with and without hard 5s is miniscule. Every faction that exists active and makes coin adventuring and crafting for more than a couple of years will swim in so much coin they're able to hard 5 a full gear set for every new member and really barely feel it. The reason hard 5s werent more common is mostly the time consuming part in the associated god-save system, not gold.

[Diegovog]

Best money sinks have been the castles and areas for settlements/districts to bid on

And speaking on gold, if this crafting update was supposed to help equalize and bridge the super rich and the new characters, why is so expensive (130k) to make one item which won't even be as good as some of the 5% out there?
Also, won't most people be buying runes from the super rich who already hoarded dozens and dozens of runes?

[98lbs of sad carryweight]

People are using "gold sink" wrong.

Gold sink = makes money poof from the total pool.
Games need that because we create money out of nothing by hitting infinite spawning mobs.
Buying runes off other players just moves it in a circle, that is not a sink.

Gold never leaving the system is already an issue and has always been, and the difference between with and without hard 5s is miniscule. Every faction that exists active and makes coin adventuring and crafting for more than a couple of years will swim in so much coin they're able to hard 5 a full gear set for every new member and really barely feel it. The reason hard 5s werent more common is mostly the time consuming part in the associated god-save system, not gold.

I dont disagree, I just saw people lable trading gold with other players as a gold sink. That is not a gold sink. Hard 5s were a minor gold sink, because it removed an amount of money.
Trading runes with other players is not a gold sink since the money is still there.

[AstralUniverse]

Best money sinks have been the castles and areas for settlements/districts to bid on

And speaking on gold, if this crafting update was supposed to help equalize and bridge the super rich and the new characters, why is so expensive (130k) to make one item which won't even be as good as some of the 5% out there?
Also, won't most people be buying runes from the super rich who already hoarded dozens and dozens of runes?

1. while the best money sink is indeed castles and generally stuff that entire faction needs to bid on for millions, it is still miniscule and the influx of gold into the system is orders of magnitude higher. I think the majorly vast majority of the gold leaving the system is by characters who roll without handing off all their millions to anyone, which is a way to say that we dont have any real gold sink at all, except an accidental one that does more work than all of the intentional ones combined.

2. Yeah I join your question as well. High end craftables are usually awful unless you need some +6 skill for a benchmark, or ac items, and weapons.

3. I'm not under the impression that super rich folk have hoarded dozens and dozens of runes, simply because... why? Runes arent that rare, or expensive. They've been extremely rare and expensive since the announcement of the removal of hard 5s. Runes havent been that super rare and hoard-worthy before that, and they wont be for very long after that, so I'm pretty sure no one is hoarding dozens and dozens of them because putting them in a shop for whatever price seems right at a time is just more profitable and hard 5s were already better than most t3 induced items with the exception of 4-stat gear that very few builds plan to have. So the answer is yes, those people will go by all the rich people like junkies "ya got more of them runes?", and all those runes are likely long gone and sold and used asap before the hard 5s were removed.

Overall, I think the main point of this update has nothing to do with gold sinks or with equalizing any gaps between the rich and the new/poor. I think this is about removing this atrocious time consuming part of:
getting god-save > proceeding to hard 5 > afking by an altar > moving to another server > repeat.
Because it simply does not incentivize any RP and actually rewards a player for investing their time into single player activities. Also gambling in a pg-13 setting, even tho it's fake money, has always been sort of an elephant in the room. That's my two cents.

[Diegovog]

1. I'm not under the impression that super rich folk have hoarded dozens and dozens of runes, simply because... why? Runes arent that rare, or expensive.

And yes, t3 runic material is insanely expensive now and people who hoarded them are at a huge advantage. These runic changes will not help gap the new players and the super rich. It will simply put a limit on how much the super rich can get and then the new players will have to spend way more gold to have an end-game set of gear. I would like to see a reduction on costs to dweomer all the way to 32 points from 130k to 100k and increase chances of t2/t3 runes from runic shrines.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm confused. You show me a screenshot without any t3 stuff.

I agree with you that it doesnt narrow the gap between the rich and the poor/new as I said, I dont think that's the focus of the update at all.