This is not a good decision IMO

[The First Vicar]

https://i.imgur.com/zTV9ETD.png

This is more punishing than anything, for a grind system that is ALREADY punishing enough. (As in, nothing good hardly drops anyways)

Like at this point, I should just play a rogue with 120 lockpick and qb into people's house and steal everything. WAY more easy to do that run 10000 runics and get no decent mats.

I feel as if this is one of many issues that the community as a whole is not deciding on together. Mostly, just the higher ups. Which is great, when it's not restrictive and feeling punishing.

I understand the cooldown system was in place, but make it a specific chest (ID) that gets reset, not a party or characters. That's punishing to the players, for no real apparent reason other than the few that circle grind a dungeon. Do this for the circle grinders who sit below mourn's top level and wait for the boss respawn, don't do this to the groups that meet on the weekend to run runics and have fun with their friends for a few hours a week, and hardly get on because of life constraints.

TLDR: Personally, I dislike the runic cooling system that is currently in place. It should be redone with punishments for those that abuse the system in the first place, and rewards/non-punishment for those that do not.

Thoughts?

[Nobs]

I solo places for runic / ady ore for the gains.

When i party with people it just for the rp as the gains are so low its funy.

[The First Vicar]

Definetly, I do too.

But I like running runics with my friends too, which I assume is how most people do them and one of the main reasons why Arelith is a multiplayer game.

[Paint]

Realistically, I'd prefer the runic system get some sort of rework that didn't require these kinds of shenanigans in the first place. I get that the whole point of this is to prevent people from grinding runics too quickly, but people who solo grind runics are going to keep doing that anyways.

Really, all the system does right now is disappoint people who unwittingly invited someone who was solo-grinding runics to their party.

[Curve]

It is a clear exploit and should be treated that way. Anyone doing this knows it is wrong too.

Beyond that there is something that I don't like about the way people interact with the runic system. It feels very greedy on an ooc level, gamey in a way that messes with my immersion and shows a mmo mentality. I can't really say it's a wrong way to play, just makes me want to take a shower.

[PowerWord Rage]

An age old topic that has several threads going on why Party dungeoning is punishing for players.
Players that partied for dungeons lately including myself, do it for RP reasons and enjoy the immersion rather than collecting gold.

And i've come to accept this situation which usually results in having my toon go on solo farming for 1-2 hours daily apart just for collecting gold.

Edit :

On Parties and Runic Shrines

Dropping from your party to loot a shrine is against the rules and considered an exploit. Players found engaging in this behavior may have the items gained deleted from their character.

This rule was already in effect since many years ago and this reminder is probably for newer players ( less than 2 years )

[Wrips]

I think a second, longer cooldown could be added, with duration of say, two or three days, that allows someone in your party to loot the chest even if you are on the runic cooldown. It sucks to meet a character you don't see often, invite them to a dungeon and they get nothing from it because you are on cooldown.

[Xerah]

People don't need to be running runics multiple times a day (they don't need to do it every day, but that's beside the point)

-Make it a 19h cooldown (using 19h since it's the same number as the writ system)
-A person can open an already opened chest and get runic loot (then trigger the cooldown)
-If you open a chest when on cooldown, you get high-tier loot (non runic loot rolls, with gems and addy potentially available)--this would still follow the normal chest rules, 1 loot spawn per chest

Yes, people will yoink people to these chests, so some workaround is needed for that, but overall this is a much healthier system. People can team up or go solo--doesn't matter. People won't feel ripped off by the timer getting triggered by someone else or being in a party. People won't have to go do their own solo runs and then join up with people on weekends. People can go to a bunch of dungeons and get extra loot, or maybe it stops a lot of the loot grind sending more people to do some RP.

There are probably some negatives to this idea, but it's important to understand how a system is getting used (regardless of the designer's intent of how the system is to be used) and redesign it in a way that is fair to both the player and the game world. I don't think we have that right now.

[AstralUniverse]

party-shared coooldown on runics is one of the most not thought out, lazy, terrible solution to a real problem that does need some solution. Not going to say what the solution is because I dont know, but I'm pretty sure dis-incentivizing people to party is not the best answer.

[Algol]

Making the cool down personal is a better solution IMO. It at least reduces the reduced loot you get by playing with other people a bit.

[Rubricae]

People can go to a bunch of dungeons and get extra loot, or maybe it stops a lot of the loot grind sending more people to do some RP.

I don't think you can reasonably FIAT that outcome with this, especially not at this stage.

[DM Monkey]

This isn't a new decision or anything. It's been wrong for a long time, just like any other exploit people do to try and get around the way systems work.

What could be very constructive here are opinions on how the loot system around runic chests/shrines should work from different perspectives.

[Coolguy McMagic]

There's a bunch of suggestions on how to alleviate the problem with runic demand on the other thread, but I'm just posting them here, too, in order of my personal preference.

1.) By far the easiest would be to instance runic chests, so each member in the party gets their own shot at a rune. This may need a special interface. There would also need to be a limit to the amount of people that can check it (like 5 or 6) to prevent people ganging up in double-digit numbers. No change to the runic timer would be needed. Not only would this greatly reduce the problem of grouping being discouraged, it would also increase runic supply and thus lower the current exorbitant prices. This would be the most elegant solution in my opinion.

2.) Let special NPCs sell runes. That might be a bit boring, but if the cost is appropriate, at least that way there would be a cap to how much a rune could ever be worth it. It would also make running runic dungeons less of a necessity, opening up the doors to other content and reducing congestion in those dungeons.

3.) Make the runic timer character-specific. This would change fairly little, as you could just switch out who opens the chest within a group and pass on the loot to whoever wants/needs/deserves/whatever the rune. It would, however, encourage grouping while leaving solo grinding the same as it is now, so I would consider it an improvement over nothing.

4.) Make runes combinable into higher rune tiers. That would make finding t1 materials feel less bad, but would also increase their price, further punishing poorly optimized characters that can't easily gather runes. I'd also hate having to hoard all these different tiers of materials in my storage/inventory. I don't like that solution very much for those reasons.

[Amateur Hour]

Making the cool down personal is a better solution IMO. It at least reduces the reduced loot you get by playing with other people a bit.

I agree with this. It actively incentivizes doing content with other people because even if you aren't eligible, other people with you (if they exist) might be. And it may even be a good idea to have the individual cooldown be longer if the idea is to encourage people to do content together (vs. roleplaying in settlements or other RP hubs). I don't know what the cooldown is, though, so depending on that answer it might not be necessary.

Beyond that there is something that I don't like about the way people interact with the runic system. It feels very greedy on an ooc level, gamey in a way that messes with my immersion and shows a mmo mentality. I can't really say it's a wrong way to play, just makes me want to take a shower.

It can certainly be greedy on an in-character level, but I would disagree that it's messy or shows an MMO mentality. How many adventure stories begin with "there's a set of caves I've heard about in the mountains that's guarded by a [insert appropriately-scary monster here]. I bet it's guarding a HOARD of treasure. If we kill it, the treasure is ours"? Getting wealthy is a perfectly reasonable in-character motivation. "I wanna be the very best like no one ever was" is a perfectly reasonable in-character motivation, arguably the classic character motivation. And it's strict truth that if you wanna be the very best like no one ever was, you're going to need runes.

[somecritter]

I would advocate for a reworking of the system to better incentivize group PvE activities. The existing system, coupled with the reminder of this rule, essentially deincentivizes going on adventures together. Does it always have to be about the hoard at the end? No, of course not but we are being dishonest if we act as if it does not play an important part of it.

Making the cool down personal is a better solution IMO. It at least reduces the reduced loot you get by playing with other people a bit.

I don't know how quick this would be to implement, but maybe it could be a temporary solution until a potential rework? Much like we disabled hard 5 prior to the implementation of a new system we could possibly do something similar here.

[AstralUniverse]

This isn't a new decision or anything. It's been wrong for a long time, just like any other exploit people do to try and get around the way systems work.

What could be very constructive here are opinions on how the loot system around runic chests/shrines should work from different perspectives.

Party shared cooldown has been wrong for long time, if that's what you mean, I agree.

I still think individual cooldowns would be much better. The cooldown could be raised or lowered if needed, so players cannot just circle rune dungeons all day. If every character can pull loot once per 24 irl hours, or even 48 irl hours, I'm pretty sure everyone will just roam in parties and not pull a lot of runes over all. I cannot say for sure what the cooldown duration should be and it's definitely a trial and error thing, but it can be done, and it would eventually be tuned to keep rune as rare as they need to be, while also incentivizing people to party instead of solo.

[xanrael]

What could be very constructive here are opinions on how the loot system around runic chests/shrines should work from different perspectives.

You could use the existing writ system for this. Get a quest from a runic writ giver. Kill a boss/perform an action and it updates one of the objectives on your writ. After a certain amount of completed objectives you can turn it in for a random rune. The writ has a cooldown.

[Xerah]

What could be very constructive here are opinions on how the loot system around runic chests/shrines should work from different perspectives.

You could use the existing writ system for this. Get a quest from a runic writ giver. Kill a boss/perform an action and it updates one of the objectives on your writ. After a certain amount of completed objectives you can turn it in for a random rune. The writ has a cooldown.

There’s not going to be a better suggestion than this. Just need an “advanced” system that only is attainable at level X that can only hold 1 writ.

The drop rates can be adjusted (and other higher quality items could be added, ie addy, gems, etc). Could also have a check from previous completion time stamp and change the drop rate based on that (ie someone doing it once a week gets a slightly better chance at nicer stuff than someone every day).

[MRFTW]

What could be very constructive here are opinions on how the loot system around runic chests/shrines should work from different perspectives.

You could use the existing writ system for this. Get a quest from a runic writ giver. Kill a boss/perform an action and it updates one of the objectives on your writ. After a certain amount of completed objectives you can turn it in for a random rune. The writ has a cooldown.

There’s not going to be a better suggestion than this. Just need an “advanced” system that only is attainable at level X that can only hold 1 writ.

The drop rates can be adjusted (and other higher quality items could be added, ie addy, gems, etc). Could also have a check from previous completion time stamp and change the drop rate based on that (ie someone doing it once a week gets a slightly better chance at nicer stuff than someone every day).

The only thing I could think to make this brilliant suggestion even better is if it awarded points to exchange for high end items of your choice rather than being at the mercy of RNG.

That way we could know we're guaranteed an upgrade in X writs. Prices could be adjusted to suit balance and gearing speed requirements.

Thain does this for ultra endgame items and it's stood the test of time there.

[Android Sufferer]

Loot has always been the biggest detriment to party party, even outside of runes. Which doesn't help create a nice rp environment, you shouldn't be punished by not soloing.

Personally I'm not a fan of the writ suggestion because it doesn't fix the party play detriment, and giving assured loot removes the excitement of getting something good.

What I'd love to see would be an increase in loot gained if you're in a party, up to a limit of course.

1:1 increase would probably be too much for regular mobs and chests as things do get faster with more people (usually), but an extra .5 per party member would help. E.g A party of 3 would give double loot. A party of 5 would give triple.

Search could also be changed to up that multiplier.

For runic chests 1:1 should be fine. Though I'd also make this information very transparent, so the entire party knows who contributed to the roll. Of course splitting it is up to players.

E.g on chest open you have a message that says:

Player x: Euk Clay
Player y: Not Eligible (Time Left)
Player z: Gnomish Magnetic Armour

It would also be nice if runic chests had decaying loot tables, so if you did do a few high end dungeons you would be rewarded still. For example, as a loose outline:

Tier 1: 24h Cooldown, best loot top tier runes
Tier 2: 12h Cooldown: best loot mid tier runes
Tier 3: 6h Cooldown: Best loot low tier runes and clay
Tier 4: 1h Cooldown: Gold and misc magical items.

You'd always use the highest tier you have off cooldown for your roll, so you could do 4 trips with decreasing returns. Maybe with a 30 minute lockout after opening a chest to discourage certain bad behaviour. EDIT: Or even better, a complete 24h lockout on that particular runic chest, so you couldn't camp one dungeon.

This should encourage party play, without discouraging solo play (which is important as well!)

[Xerah]

Personally I'm not a fan of the writ suggestion because it doesn't fix the party play detriment, and giving assured loot removes the excitement of getting something good.

It does fix the party play detriment because everyone can take the same writ (they are repeatable, of course, maybe once per week or something which would help spread out the players away from just the quickest/easier ones). You could solo instead if you wanted, but party with others for RP and quickness. I'm not sure how it doesn't solve this issue.

There are different types of gamers, some who love the excitement of RNG and some who hate the disappointment of RNG. I designed that Thain system that was mentioned because I hate RNG's disappointment (note there is still other important loot that is RNG based there). But I don't think the higher ups would go for that here.

Regardless if it's in a chest at the end or back with an NPC, you're still rolling for the end loot and get excitement for getting something good.

[Cthuletta]

I love the idea of a weekly writ that can provide an RNG of some high-tier rune or other material!
It'd relieve a lot of the congestion in dungeons and also inspire more partying up together since everyone gets a piece instead of rolling for a single bit of loot.

[Android Sufferer]

It does fix the party play detriment because everyone can take the same writ (they are repeatable, of course, maybe once per week or something which would help spread out the players away from just the quickest/easier ones). You could solo instead if you wanted, but party with others for RP and quickness. I'm not sure how it doesn't solve this issue.

Runes aren't the only negative of party play, and as per the exploit they probably haven't been a negative of it!

I can understand that not everyone enjoys random loot, but randomness is inherent in dnd and the entire arelith loot/resource structure so I'd assume that most people would enjoy that or some semblance of it. I'm certainly not a fan of getting rubbish, but it makes getting something good a lot better.

That said, who knows what most people enjoy!

[The First Vicar]

What could be very constructive here are opinions on how the loot system around runic chests/shrines should work from different perspectives.

You could use the existing writ system for this. Get a quest from a runic writ giver. Kill a boss/perform an action and it updates one of the objectives on your writ. After a certain amount of completed objectives you can turn it in for a random rune. The writ has a cooldown.

Yeah this idea is pretty solid, and mechanically incorporated Into the system via writs. Personally I try to do all dungeons or most of them once a week with friends as that's all we have time for due to life constraints. Having a shot once a week to recieve a random (higher tier) rune would be great instead of suffering for weeks/months grinding just to get a lesser quality rune that I don't need. Reward could still be percentage base chance, so the system doesn't get flooded with masterworks but a reasonable amount.

Example: upon turning writ in to npc you have a chance for runic mats as follows:

High tier: 15-20%
Mid tier: 35-40%
Low tier: : 45-50%

With a once a week timer (writ) it could deter grinding. Chests in boss areas will need to be redone to have runes removed or replaced with some other items (insert whatever item you like, be fun with it! Maybe even rare rp only items of legend) So that people will still get some kind of gold or cool item for doing the raid, even if it's not an active writ, or just add more gold, If that makes sense.

[MRFTW]

I can understand that not everyone enjoys random loot, but randomness is inherent in dnd and the entire arelith loot/resource structure so I'd assume that most people would enjoy that or some semblance of it. I'm certainly not a fan of getting rubbish, but it makes getting something good a lot better.

That said, who knows what most people enjoy!

I enjoy the RNG aspect too, but when you've got millions in the bank but need 2 masterwork runes and nothing else to finish your gear, the chances of getting what you actually want are frustratingly low.

There's plenty of RNG if that's your thing already, you could even force the hypothetical ultra writ to be a random location. You could make the spawns random, the max party size random, add random effects like AC/AB/Save maluses, disable summoning, anything. Making the rewards random is the worst place to put the RNG because it makes character progression random, which is anti-fun. Hard 5%ing gear was the same kind of anti fun.

After all, the main function of runes is to remove the RNG factor of dweomercrafting, so RNG can't be that fun when it comes to gear and hence character progression.