HARBINGER FEEDBACK

[Shadowy Reality]

I still fully believe this class should be d10.

It isn't really a caster, the spells are either flavour or support. None of the other martial classes with similar spells have d8, they are all d10. See Paladin, Ranger, old Hexblade. The new iteration does not really gain AC vs old Hexblade, the loss of those 60 HP will hurt.

[Whosdis]

Not sure what the hubbub is about with the numbers.

The innate hex gives the equivalent of half of Acedia and half of Hallucination. If you throw in the actual Hex of Hallucination, you get +2 AC and +2 AB and your opponent recieves -3 AC and -3 AB. So they have a functional -5 to hit you and you have a functional +4 to hit them. For Hexblade, those numbers are at -4 each on a 27/3 Hexblade.

If I throw in a cookie cutter Hexblade Bonus Damage
+1 enhancement bonus
+3 pos energy
+3 neg energy
+10 Magic (but no +5 vampiric regen)
That's 17 damage every hit

For
2d4 damage, or 2d6 with improved hex, which is
7.5 average damage

Looks worse right?
But you're dealing 4d4 damage every round that's slowly nipping away at them no matter what, so that's 8 damage a round
Oh and you have the atrocity strike. If that lands that's another 6 average damage.

Red Scythe? Presuming the 2d6=7 average damage, the bonus die could be as low as 6 extra damage, or as high as 108 extra bleeding damage. If it's affected by hemorrhage (bleed vulnerability), it could reach even more silly numbers. Let's go by an 5x5=40 extra damage.

Essentially compared to a 27/3 Hexblade, they're functionally getting +1 AB and +1 AC. Their average hit is the same as it was before Curse of Sacrifice, but now they're hitting for pseudo-smites every 18 seconds and they put dots on their opponents, and they're vampirically regenerating 6 points the whole time, going by Crimson Countess. 26 SR is nice because it lets you put on a different helmet. The massive crits aren't a big deal but it does mean the overall damage is slightly better, just in a way that's hard to factor. (So if we presume average of (7 + 40)/3=15 average damage per round ...

Throw in the Dark Claim, so that's 15+8=23 average damage per round against an average of 9.5 per hit loss. (keep in mind massive criticals)

You have less health (mitigated with mortality undone), but you have more AC and a wad of vampiric regeneration. That's in addition to the other stuff they're getting in their kits, as well as the generally more useful spellbook.

And that's with the presumption of only 2 rumors of war (hallucination and improved weapon hex). The real beauty of it is that it's hexblade without the damage being built into feats: There's actual room for variety here.

[AstralUniverse]

We cant even test any caster focused HB with this spellbook. Hard to give feedback on the main build architype of the class. I can say that 21 hb 4 fighter 5 wm mundane build is alright but that's about it.

didn't that specific build just lose divine synergy? iirc it was moved to harbinger 23 with divine patronage

You're right, I dont actually know for sure if it's alright. I tested it when it was omega bonkers. I do believe it's now 'alright' and possibly an angle for 8 cha harbinger. cant quite remember what scales with cha when you're not a div build and dont use spellbook so maybe I'm wrong here but my main point was simply that anything to do with casting-focused build cannot be properly tested and releasing the class in it's state is a questionable decision because when it goes live, overrides hexblade and gets it's advertised spellbook it will be a whole new beast to test.

[Quidix]

Consolidating my points of feedback:

(1) Herald of the Grave appears bugged and does not appear as an option in the feat list

(2) On the Herald of the Grave curse empowerment - could it also add Curse Song Charges? It would be a considerable quality of life, as otherwise one has very limited uses each day (even with extra music)

(3) I agree with others that d8 is harsh for a melee character, it would be nice to bring it back to d10, or to give Toughness for free at level 14 or something to partially make up for it

(4) It's odd that Dark Blessing is received so late (26) for something the class previously for for free at the early levels - could we consider (i) adding a 'Lesser Dark Blessing' at level 15 which gave half of charisma to saves, or (ii) 'round up' the class synergies to allow more flexibility (for example, 3 ranger with Eternal hunter would contribute 2 instead if 1)

(5) What is the curse save for warlock summons for Hex of Rune-breaker? (this limitation makes it quite a lot less attractive)

(6) A lot of power is unlocked at level 21 and 24 - it would be nice to have some more bonus beyond that?

[Shadowy Reality]

Not sure what the hubbub is about with the numbers.

I have an earlier post with numbers, they seem to lose 1 AB and are AC neutral vs old pure Hexblade from what I mathed before, if I am wrong please do correct me.

They have lost 60 HP (it is actually only 20 if you take Mortality Undone as it gives Epic Toughness I and II) but went down from 18% DI to 10% DI, which is a considerable decrease.

Right now I am struggling to find something in which Harbingers excel compared to similar classes or even old Hexblades. Hexblade was alright, not not amazing. I have played an EDR Hexblade to 30, the character has done some PvP, it is a DPS race almost everytime, only HP, DI and DR keep you from dying too fast.

Spellsword is just spellsword, they are really good. Also d8, slightly less AB (but still really high), more AC, pretty good spellbook.
Paladins are d10, similar AB, innate access to damage and AC and dispel on hit, they are really strong too.
Rangers are d10, similar AB, similar or higher damage output, access to stealth and an animal companion that if left unchecked actually is a threat, if mixed with WM can just eat someone before they can react.

The damage over time means very little since PvP is really fast paced and usually ends in less than 10 rounds. DCs are too low for them to matter, and more often than not immunities still apply.

[AstralUniverse]

We cant even test any caster focused HB with this spellbook. Hard to give feedback on the main build architype of the class. I can say that 21 hb 4 fighter 5 wm mundane build is alright but that's about it.

didn't that specific build just lose divine synergy? iirc it was moved to harbinger 23 with divine patronage

Actually, I did some more tests, and now you can do 21 hb 4 cot 5 wm or 22 hb 3 cot 5 wm and still get divine synergy. It also means you get 1 more ac from access to the Cot full plate, rather than being relegated to addy plate as a Fighter. Over all, not a terrible nerf here on it's own. Losing weapon spec is a pretty big deal but harbinger doesnt exactly lack damage as a class, especially with divine might.

[For My Next Trick]

So. I'm going to ask this for clarities sake before it releases.

This class has -so much text- and a lot of it isn't clear or is sort of hard to cut through.

I think it's very bloated in that regard right now.

There is also just some weird choices that, while I get you're going for theme? Please just tell us what the feat does without creating something brand new.

If we're getting a familiar? Please just call it that.

If we're getting mobility? Please just call it that.

Things like this make it so much harder for people who aren't necessarily familiar with building (And even many who are) to know what is going on.

This class is genuinely very fun, and thematic. I love that about it. But please, clarity needs to exist above all of that. Thanks!

[AstralUniverse]

If we're getting mobility? Please just call it that.

So that must be why I couldnt select Mobility at some point and thought it's some bug that it cannot be selected on harbinger level. What is it called in the class page please?

[Deth Punkrock]

If we're getting mobility? Please just call it that.

So that must be why I couldnt select Mobility at some point and thought it's some bug that it cannot be selected on harbinger level. What is it called in the class page please?

its called elusive shadow on the wiki and doesnt appear in the google doc, ingame its just called mobility and you get it at 13th level

[AstralUniverse]

HUH! . . .

Why thank you sir.

Back to the lab.

Also, this is the messiest class release progress we've ever had. Just sayin'. Or maybe it just feels that way because of how abilities/progressions are written in the class page. A lvl 7th ability (familiar) is granted on level 7, yet it is listed somewhere at the bottom of the page after all of the abilities and class feats, yet above the chart that includes spell progression. I dont know maybe it's just me but I feel like it's easy to miss stuff that way. Other classes are written in chronological order. Not to mention the lack of spellcasting up to date with the class design.

[Shadowy Reality]

So I went to PGCC and played a bit with Harbingers. I have mostly changed my opinion and think they are probably fine. I do have a few key notes. These were mostly taken from a 2-h EDR build's perspective, as that is what my Hexblade on live is, so I was looking at how that would look after the update.

Cursed Razor is the worst of the paths, and I think it is by a large margin.
The effects on atrocities are worse, Dark Seraph's either daze or stun, which is huge. Crimson Counts have extra damage on melee. By comparison, a slow, a teleport and entangle is not amazing.
They also have the worse killing claimed creature effect. 11/+6 DR (Crimson) and +2AB (Dark Serapth) are far better than +2AC.
They also have the worse weapon hex. Crimson and Dark Seraph have 1d6/2d4/2d6 and Cursed Razor has 1d4+1d4/1d6+1d6/1d8+1d8. Assuming 5/- resistances, Crimson and Dark Seraph are looking at 2.5 on average, and Cursed Razor at 0. If you look at ranges, Crimson and Dark Seraph are looking at 0-7 damage and Cursed Razor 0-3 + 0-3. It is plain worse. Their Dark claim increases vulnerability to their types but I don't think this is great, other Dark claims have better effects. Cold is also a bad type as a lot of subraces and spell provide immunity or DI against cold. Entropy and Bleed are harder to come by.

The Killing a claimed creature with any Atrocity ability mechanic is clunky.
These are big bonus which are really hard to get. In PvE they are fine, you will be able to eventually get them every 2 turns. But for PvP these will likely not be there. A way to get around this is to summon creature 1, Dark claim and use atrocity on them to get the bonus instantly, then you only have 26 seconds until you can claim your PvP target, which I think we can all agree is just a silly way to circumvent mechanics. Going to PvP without 11/+6 DR or without the extra +2 AB is absolutely huge.
I don't have a suggestion on how to make it less clunky, maybe reduce the bonus but make it easier to attain.

Blood Homunculus and Black Blade of Disaster
One is a bit too weak, the other is a tad too strong.
Blood Homunculus AB is just way too low, at level 30 Harbinger I was looking at 33 AB, it did have a lot of HP and immunities, so maybe this is currently more of a PvE sponge? In PvP it can just be ignored.
Black Blade of Disaster (with the Improved Weapon Hex had +45 AB (which may be on the higher side), dealing 2d6 + 34 (15-20x2).
The blade still has the on-hit save or die, this should absolutely be removed.
The blade is entirely immune to physical or elemental damage (did not try magical). I assume mords just removes it. This makes the interaction very binary, it either has an amazing staying power, or just none at all.

I am still not over Mortality Undone nerfing their DI from Hexblade from 18% down to 10%. I would ask if this could be bumped to older values for Harbingers with a hard CON of 19 (basically the EDR builds, or maybe for 2H builds as these are missing the 10% Piercing DI from using a shield too). These will never be mechanically optimal. Right now you are better running sword and shield, going higher on Strength for more AB, specially with easier access to Divine Might and Divine Shield due to Divine Patronage.

Edit: the Blade of Disaster AB is actually +40, the character sheet is lying for some reason. I would say it should probably gain 3 AB and lose the on-hit kill.

[Dreams]

Where's the most up to date information on Harbinger? It seems like most of the documents are off, tool tips in game are wrong.

Is this considered balanced now? Or is it just out there so we can see what happens when people rush them to 30 and start messing around?

[kinginyellow]

Two things about Blood Count so far:

Using your atrocity strike does: Your Melee Damage First, then the Bleed Damage from the missing health %, then for some reason 2 times your on-hit damage. If the target dies from the last 2 sources of damage, it doesn't count as killing an enemy with your atrocity and you don't reap the benefits from doing it.

[Quidix]

Hexblade currently qualify as a War Priest class - is the plan to now allow Harbinger to qualify instead?

On another note, should Harbinger Synergies (e.g. rogue + lurker in darkness) be affecting any Rumours of War? If so, it would be helpful to document the interactions.

[kinginyellow]

I'm fine with most of these nerfs, the only one that I think is slightly uncalled for is the skill point nerf.

Since Gruesome Technique was removed you no longer need intimidate. With the skill points reduction after that it means that you essentially lose 1 additional skill on top of it.

This won't stop people from going for the must-have skills, it just means everyone will go for the must-have skills.

On a human with at least 14 Int (which is required for improved knockdown, a staple of acedia hexblade) you're getting 7 skill points per level. Just enough for Concentration, Discipline, Heal, Lore and after a bard dip at 27 Tumble, UMD and Spellcraft.

This is still achievable on a 18 str 18 cha chassis if you're going for divine synergy.

So it doesn't affect your combat effectiveness at all unless you dumped INT. It just means you won't take any skills to interact with the settlement system or for QoL.

This also means that most Harbinger builds are going to be on a human chassis or they'll need 16 base int. If you were playing a non-human harbinger, my heart goes out to you.

[Shadowy Reality]

Humans are king, as per usual. A skill nerf is pretty big and will limit builds.

The nerfs make my scratch my head. On one hand we have summon nerfs that ask us to wait 10 weeks so we can gather feedback and see how they play out. And now we have nerfs only a few days after release.
What have harbingers been compared to that they were deemed to over the top?

I have a Hexblade I used a Major award waiting for the migration. Is there a possibility of stat changes along with the -setclass? I had a 2H EDR Hexblade, that basically needed big AB, big HP, and big DI, all of which went down with Harbinger. It was already barely viable as Hexblade and now it is just worse.

[Wrips]

I think the latest patch didn't really address the glaring issues of the class and instead simply aimed at weakening melee capacity. Atrocity DC is still high, overall, with CHA based Cursed Razor builds hitting DC 50 Curse Storms and Atrocities...

Cursed Armaments: No longer provide Epic Prowess.

Significantly affects epic feat disposition, further dropping AB in most cases. Divine Harbinger with a dip has now 46! AB, with any buff being captive to the generosity of the circunstances (like many Harbinger abilities).

Hex of Rust - Debuff to AC is capped at -2.
Hex of Hallucination - Debuff to AB is capped at -2.

Invites a dip but you are punished for dipping an umd/tumble class by losing a weapon enhancement bonus and a class feat, unlike Paladin who gets all their abilities before level 28 and +3CL.

Hex of Black Diamond - Blurr and Displacement spells are not removed.

Not necessarily a bad change but it feels extremely situational for a class feat.

Hex of Oath-breaker - no longer provides bonuses to Harbinger. Damage lowered to 5d6.

Again, extremely situational and it can just be reapplied again.

In general, the nerf to their melee capacity makes little sense, while Atrocity and Ability DCs are over the top. Some abilities are extremely situational (Death Knell) that is difficult to take in consideration when analyzing the general framework of the class. Except for the aforementioned over the top DCs, the class feels somewhat clunky, with little and expensive (losing the +5 weapon, and a class feat PLUS selecting one of the patronages for the decent dips - basically, sacrificing two class feats for the right to dip on umd/tumble; like, really, who is going to dip divine champion??) dip synergy.

[Bazelgeuse]

I have a Hexblade I used a Major award waiting for the migration. Is there a possibility of stat changes along with the -setclass? I had a 2H EDR Hexblade, that basically needed big AB, big HP, and big DI, all of which went down with Harbinger. It was already barely viable as Hexblade and now it is just worse.

If the character is below level 10? you can delete them and get the Major award back.

[AlonelyBard]

I very much like the idea of the class, but I feel like it's currently pidgeon-holed into being an "evil" class, which is annoying as we already have a Charisma-based Evil Martial class in Blackguard.
Hexblade was a super interesting idea and worked fairly well, and when I saw what a harbinger could do and how one could roleplay their abilities it seemed to screamed "Justicar" to me, someone who will vanquish evil by whatever means necessary. However, the abilities, descriptions and flavor text, while well written, definitely seems to be wanting the players to lean more on the evil side of thing rather than Neutral.
With the first wave of nerfs coming out, I can similarly say that I'm dissapointed at the reduction of the class's more martial leaning. Giving out Epic Prowess for free is very good, and my build specifically is not ruined by having to take it as a feat, but I've seen multiple characters get dropped now thanks to the skillpoint reduction. 4+int is by no means terrible, it's about average for heavy martials like Fighter,DC,Weaponmaster. However, it does feel like there's getting less and less support for builds to be able to pick skills more freely. Often-times, especially on non-humans, I find that I'm dissapointed in builds due to it's lack of further interaction with the world. Not being able to get sail, open/disable, even the settlement skills like intimidate and leadership. We've seen massive changes through the years to the disguise system, but it feels hard to invest in it for any build that isn't specifically a bard who already gets a large portion of their disguise from perform. We've done so much to make skills more interesting mechanically and in roleplay, but it feels like only a very very select few builds can capitalize on these changes anymore.

[Kythana]

On a human with at least 14 Int (which is required for improved knockdown, a staple of acedia hexblade) you're getting 7 skill points per level. Just enough for Concentration, Discipline, Heal, Lore and after a bard dip at 27 Tumble, UMD and Spellcraft.

...

So it doesn't affect your combat effectiveness at all unless you dumped INT. It just means you won't take any skills to interact with the settlement system or for QoL.

Disagree.

Assuming we're taking a bard dip as stated, the previous skill point allocation would allow for free access to hide + ms, which when put in the right hands, will greatly enhance the combat prowess of the build.

This is a class that can have:

• Extended Haste.
• Divine Synergy.
• Corner sneaking.
• Instant action breach + AC debuff.

This is already way too strong, and now you need to actually make a meaningful choice. Like dropping heal and pumping int to 16.

[Xerah]

For the people thinking about playing a newly released class:

There will be major changes, buffs, nerfs, etc. to newly released classes including Harbinger.

This should not surprise anyone. It's really strange that people are "dropping characters" as if this wasn't expected. If this is troubling to someone, I suggest waiting 6+ months (or longer) to try out the class as this is the nature of a newly added class.

[chris a gogo]

I always wait 6 months before trying any new class.
Unfortunately i do have a hexblade and as ive not even looked at the replacement i have no idea how to rebuild it as yet.

[Naghast]

I'm surprised at it's loss of skillpoints/level honestly.

Loss of gruesome does not surprise me. Neither does reduction to lifesteal. But the skillpoints...
Hm.

[Arctic]

I am currently playing a level 13 Harbinger (Dark Seraph path), and neither the wiki nor the release page reflects reality as I've yet to unlock 4th level spells.

Spell progression also feels weird. You have very few spell slots even with an 18 charisma, so you'll get spells known faster than you'll get spell slots. While the extra choice is nice in practice you might as well not know more spells as you'll use your spell slots on the most essential buffs.

There's an anti-synergy going on with the Atrocities and the passive bonuses for killing a claimed creature and the dark claim itself. The atrocities provide great damage as an opener against a fresh enemy and provides crowd control, making them easier to kill. Once you've used it the cooldown is rarely shorter than the time it takes to kill the enemy. Dark Claim is also on a pretty long cooldown, so my instinct is to keep it ready for an enemy I want to kill quickly.

So what usually happens is this: I open up with dark claim and an atrocity strike on an enemy. Atrocity strike goes on cooldown, and in this time the target dies. I try to open up with the whisper sometimes, but it's a full round action compared to the instant action of atrocity strike so depending on distance I usually don't use it.

How you have to play it to get the passive bonus reliably: Use dark claim, whittle down the hp until the target is badly wounded or near dead, then use atrocity strike to finish them off. This is unsatisfying because dead is a much better status effect than dazed or stunned, so that portion of the ability is a bit moot. Also, if you misjudge the dmg and hp the strike has left the target might still be alive, and you won't get the passive. At that point you might has well have opened with the ability and maybe applied the status effect. You might land a crit and kill the target before you get to apply the atrocity strike as well, it has happened with me but is not too likely.

My suggestion would be to change the passive benefits from killing a claimed creature with an ability to be applied by normal attacks as well.

[chris a gogo]

Post by Shadowy Reality » 09 Apr 2024 08:36

Humans are king, as per usual. A skill nerf is pretty big and will limit builds.

The nerfs make my scratch my head. On one hand we have summon nerfs that ask us to wait 10 weeks so we can gather feedback and see how they play out. And now we have nerfs only a few days after release.
What have harbingers been compared to that they were deemed to over the top?

I have a Hexblade I used a Major award waiting for the migration. Is there a possibility of stat changes along with the -setclass? I had a 2H EDR Hexblade, that basically needed big AB, big HP, and big DI, all of which went down with Harbinger. It was already barely viable as Hexblade and now it is just worse.

Ah good to know mine was also a 2H EDR build guess i'll just auto level it back up and roll then thanks for the heads up.