Slaves Bidding On Surface Property

[Waldo52]

Slaves can't bid on surface property. I started a thread many months back to clarify this issue, because my character is a slave and was able to bid on a Sencliff Shop.

This whole system seems really murky. Any time you're "allowed" to do something in game but not allowed to do it according to the rules as written, real players will ask themselves what's going on. Had I not started that thread, I may have found myself with a shop and chewed out by a DM for it.

My feedback is this: A slave should be able to attempt to bid on any property anywhere. If the rules forbid it, the slave should be told that the property is not available to slaves.

We should not have to ask ourselves: "I'm a pirate too, so I can bid in Sencliff, right?" or "Is Dis an exception to this rule?". We should be able to interact with the game rather than DMs and forums to advance our plot arcs.

[Ad Astra]

It is a rule. Slaves are confined to slave specific housing, of which there is limited, and they look like housing for a slave alright.

[Kuma]

It is a rule. Slaves are confined to slave specific housing, of which there is limited, and they look like housing for a slave alright.

Their point is that the server mechanics should reflect this rule. Some quarters can mechanically only be interacted with by slaves- the reverse is not, currently, true, resulting in confusion where people have to hunt down obscure wiki pages or forum threads to even know they're breaking a rule or not.

[Ad Astra]

It is a rule. Slaves are confined to slave specific housing, of which there is limited, and they look like housing for a slave alright.

Their point is that the server mechanics should reflect this rule. Some quarters can mechanically only be interacted with by slaves- the reverse is not, currently, true, resulting in confusion where people have to hunt down obscure wiki pages or forum threads to even know they're breaking a rule or not.

"Those with Slave Collars cannot own quarters, except a few designated places for slaves as indicated IG or a room inside their master's guildhouse. They are allowed to own shops in the underdark, or own a vault in place of a quarter. Slaves can not own property on the Surface."

From the slavery page. Is that really something you consider obscure?

Also, non slaves definitely shouldn't be able to buy the literal three quarters available to slaves. Absolutely not.

[Cybren]

Whenever possible, if you can't do something narratively, you should not be able to do something mechanically.

(Also whenever possible, information absolutely critically needed to properly play your character should given to you clearly and immediately within the module, and not on the wiki)

[BlinkDelight]

Most servers I have played on just like Arelith tells you to read the wiki and locate the forums so you’re familiar with all rules and expectations. It is a requirement, I quote from the Arelith home page: "It is expected that all players will be familiar with the rules upon joining."

Now it’s okay to forget some of the rules now and then, and come back to the wiki to recheck them. That’s what it’s there for, and when in doubt you can always ask the -badge ama people in game instead of posting on the forums. Bugs do happen now and then that requires second thought, but so long as you play in good faith you should be able to explain any situation or misunderstanding.

[The GrumpyCat]

Only a guess, but I think the fact that slaves can still mechanically buy none-slave property is because people can be made slaves in game. Perhaps adding that code would make it so that buildings belonging to pcs as they were enslaved would automatically release. And whilst that may be understandable, it'd also be a bit harsh if done quickly. (Of course, even pcs made slaves shouldn't be owning none-slave property, but as a rule we do allow a little grace period to release first)

That said, the above may well be incorrect, and I personaly am not against adding a mechanical preventative. May take a while to happen though.

[Cybren]

Most servers I have played on just like Arelith tells you to read the wiki and locate the forums so you’re familiar with all rules and expectations. It is a requirement, I quote from the Arelith home page: "It is expected that all players will be familiar with the rules upon joining."

Now it’s okay to forget some of the rules now and then, and come back to the wiki to recheck them. That’s what it’s there for, and when in doubt you can always ask the -badge ama people in game instead of posting on the forums. Bugs do happen now and then that requires second thought, but so long as you play in good faith you should be able to explain any situation or misunderstanding.

Most servers do not have near 20 years of accumulated rules and rulings kept in varying states of accuracy across wiki pages, forum/discord posts, and a website that for some reason enumerates 5 rules as large blocks of text that contain other, seemingly entirely unrelated rules within them.

[The GrumpyCat]

The five rules are the main rules you should be paying attention to though.

If you follow those rules, and understand the spirit of them, then you shouldn't go too far wrong.

If you're seriously infringing on one of the main rules? Then you're probably going to be in more trouble than if you break one of the smaller rulings because we know that not everyone has time or energy to go through every single one.

Maybe the team will one day look at making it so that slaves can only own quarters that are slave quarters? That's not a bad idea. Though I think more specific slave quarters will need to be added/or vaults should be counted too. But for now that's not the case. Maybe eventually someone will get around to that change, I think that would be nice.

But keep in mind too

Whenever possible, if you can't do something narratively, you should not be able to do something mechanically.

POSSIBLE.
Whenever Possible.

Sometimes things arn't possible, or sometimes they just arn't feasable. Yes, they can be done, but it'd take just too much time.

Some things that are possible now, weren't possible ten years ago.

This is something to keep in mind.

Finally the team that works on changes is a team of volunteers, who graciously put in their own time and energy into something they're passionate about. Maybe this thread will persuade a member of the Devs to make this change (if Irongron approves, I think he would?) and if so grand! Or maybe they're too busy with other projects, or with real life. And if that's so? Well that's the way it is.

[Cybren]

I do not think you will convince me that the rule section of the FAQ is either well written or coherently organized.

Rule 2 establishes that pvp must be interactively roleplayed. Rule 3 establishes that you can only steal from someone once per 24 hours. Is stealing a type of PvP? idk, you would think. What does the wiki say? Well it says the thief needs to obey... the Be Nice Rule! That's rule 4. Let's open it. Oh, it's the no cybersex rule. What do they think I want to steal, exactly?

[Drogo Gyslain]

I think this squarely juts up with the saying "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

This goes hand in hand with what grumpy said about the challenges of implementing a sweeping mechanical change.

It's easier to handle these situations as they come with DM reports and making appropriate comments to staff as situations arise. Trying to impliment large scale changes to the code is ultimately a waste of developer time for the infrequency that it happens.

Though cybren is right, the rules on the topic aren't exactly clear and need to be centralized where all the adjustments and rule changes are clearly laid out and not have to dig through 10 years of forums, 2 websites and discord messages to arrive as a fully informed conclusion.

[Cybren]

Yeah, to be clear, I am not saying "this is wrong and you're wrong for doing it this way", but I was just explaining why I think Ad Astra seemed to be missing the intended point of both the OP and Kuma. I understand that making mechanical changes to those kinds of systems is difficult and complex but that does not mean there is not an issue here.

[great balls of fire]

If it's a rule that states a slave isn't supposed to own property on the surface or non-slave quarters, then that should be implemented mechanically. Or, a warning put on the sign at the bid that warns the slave its against the rules.

I don't get the hostility with "its in the rules you should just know." There are over 2,000 consistent players here, and even more unique accounts registered. Not every single one of those people is going to know to check for forums, or discord, or a wiki. I even checked the IG journal; it doesn't say anything about there being specific rules for slavery, or reference any kind of slavery page to find more information. That someone should just "get it" is not fair to the hundreds of people who might not have the same familiarity with the server culture.

Just make the quarters not-biddable by slaves, put a warning, or, at the very minimum, add a tab to the journal that explains the slavery system and the rules to it.

[BlinkDelight]

I don't get the hostility with "its in the rules you should just know." There are over 2,000 consistent players here, and even more unique accounts registered. Not every single one of those people is going to know to check for forums, or discord, or a wiki. I even checked the IG journal; it doesn't say anything about there being specific rules for slavery, or reference any kind of slavery page to find more information. That someone should just "get it" is not fair to the hundreds of people who might not have the same familiarity with the server culture.

I'm sorry I don't see any hostility nor any explicit fact that someone says "its in the rules you should just know." or anyone here saying that they should just "get it" My post certainly said it was alright not to be aware of all the rules, and so was DM The GrumpyCat's post:

The five rules are the main rules you should be paying attention to though.

If you follow those rules, and understand the spirit of them, then you shouldn't go too far wrong.

Also I think you should give the players on this server a bit more credit. I rarely find people who ever need my help with badge ama, though I still always welcome their questions. If hundreds of people are playing on this server everyday then I imagine they are aware of the basic edict and standards. As expected with any other MMO that requires you to sign a legal agreement or click the I understand with a rule policy change (and no one ever bothers to read those anyways.) They play like it never happens and they include thousands and tens of thousands with even less communication from the developers and design team. I'm thankful that our DM's and volunteers are so transparent which all their changes and updates even going out of their way to ask us for their feedback and setup the appropriate forums for our understanding and long-term enjoyment. It's not "perfect" but nothing really is.

I genuinely don't see the serious concern over the fact a slave character can do something out of bounds with his mechanical limitations. It might simply be a limitation of the human race option just like how gnolls and other monster races can't ride horses and lose out on the entire cavalier class due to their "polymorphed" monster models. It doesn't effect the hundreds or thousands of our characters' gameplay, and slave characters are already a special minority on the server that most people don't play or even wish were removed entirely. One slave's exploit being able to buy a shop on the surface is not a serious issue of the server and can simply be fixed with a simple yes/no question as what was done here by the OP. Its simply considered an exploit and will be hopefully fixed in time mechanically or we might even see the removal of slave characters.

[The GrumpyCat]

Or, a warning put on the sign at the bid that warns the slave its against the rules.

This is the warning you get when you take the collar.

I'll admit though I'm not sure what the warning is for when creating a slave.

Also like - and I know I'm taking a risk when I say this - we do make allowances for this sort of thing?

Its not like we'd spot a slave owning a normal quarter and go:
'MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA the FOOOOOOOL! MWAHAHAHAHA oooh now they shall SUFFFFFFFFEEERRRR... BWAHAHAH! WE SHALL RIP! THEIR! QUARTER! FROM! THEM! We shall DESTROY their character! bbwwahahahahahahah! We shall BAN them! BAN THEM FOREVER! AHAHAHAHAH THEIR TEARS OF SUFFERING WILL BE OUR WATER!'

What we in fact tend to do (so long as we don't see lots of previous offences of this sort is)

'Haya, sorry mate. Noticed that you owned a quarter, but your pc is a slave. You can own a slave quarter, or a vault, or a quarter in a guildhouse, if your owner owns that, but not any other quarter. Please release that quarter asap.'

I mean, again I'm not neccesarly arguing against having a mechanical change to it. It seems a good idea and all. But like, you know, it's not a big deal honestly?

[DM Monkey]

TLDR:

• Slaves shouldn't own property which isn't a slave quarter, vault or internal quarter of a guildhouse owned by their master.
• There are warnings when you become a slave.
• If a DM finds a slave character owning property that they shouldn't, they'll give the player a chance to collect their things and then release it in a reasonable amount of time.
• Get free, then you can own whatever again!

[BlinkDelight]

I'll admit though I'm not sure what the warning is for when creating a slave.

I just so happened to check earlier, there is no warning in the character creation start area like how outcasts get an expectation surface warning when they click on the doors.

[Amateur Hour]

I'll admit though I'm not sure what the warning is for when creating a slave.

I just so happened to check earlier, there is no warning in the character creation start area like how outcasts get an expectation surface warning when they click on the doors.

I feel like this pop-up warning capability is horribly underutilized in general, to be honest. Giving slaves the warning that slavery has significant restrictions mechanically/RP-wise and freedom is not easy to get is only one great application of it (I'd love to see a version of the Definitive Drow Policy on there for drow, for example, but that's a topic for a whole 'nother thread).

[PowerWord Rage]

I've never played a slave before but I felt that slaves are weird.
I'll admit that i'm not a great RPer but subconsciously, I keep having the nagging feeling they are just -weird-

Whenever i see a slave PC, the thing that comes into my mind, isn't 'suffering or unfortunate stories that befell upon them' but simply, these are "slaves that live a good life, has autonomy over their own fate and may even be richer WITH having access to such riches more than their master perhaps or 50% of the player base, not withstanding equipping the best equipments and a level 30 (hence a legendary character in PNP)."

It's just my own personal thought in this matter of course. I have no interest in slaves RP or the so called chainbreaking because this subconscious thought is pretty jarring enough to break any form of immersion for me.

[Joe46]

A way I use to make my head work around aves is think the following

"These aren't your average slaves, these are warrior slaves, thralls. They are the best quality you can get your hands on and so, are valued as property."

If you want the truly horrid experience of being a slave, you'd be an NPC farming spores all day or doing some menial task. These are NPCs you can find all around Andunor and (at least in lore) constitute the majority of slaves in the city. PC slaves are luxuries, expensive property not to be wasted easily.

Also, I just refuse to think we're all level 30, everyone points out we "actually aren't 30 in lore" so I just tag along with that.

[PowerWord Rage]

A way I use to make my head work around aves is think the following

"These aren't your average slaves, these are warrior slaves, thralls. They are the best quality you can get your hands on and so, are valued as property."

If you want the truly horrid experience of being a slave, you'd be an NPC farming spores all day or doing some menial task. These are NPCs you can find all around Andunor and (at least in lore) constitute the majority of slaves in the city. PC slaves are luxuries, expensive property not to be wasted easily.

Also, I just refuse to think we're all level 30, everyone points out we "actually aren't 30 in lore" so I just tag along with that.

When a certain fact becomes too jarring, it's almost impossible to hypnotize yourself since subconsciously, we do not believe that we're actually fools. So, to believe that these slaves would not be a level 30 or rather, there is -no- level 30 slaves are impossible. Additionally, these level 30s are probably about half of the slaves' population.

The thing about level 30 is, they're legendary character who achieves almost demigod-like abilities. Such entity if enslaved can only be crippled or with their powers sealed / partially sealed in order to control them which the best method would be, to make sure that they falls under the mortal realm (Pre-epic).
We've prisoner mechanic now and in fact, these level 30 belongs more towards prisoners rather than slaves.
We've commoner class and i do not understand why Slaves get to retain legendary powers despite the fact that they -should- be controlled.

I can understand that these are pretty harsh method for existing slave PCs but i believe that years ago, when the server wasn't too populated, slaves are controlled rather well. Yet now, with the benefits of slavery ( mechanical benefit ), it becomes obsolete.
I even hope that Slaves are only possible to be created via character creation and locked by the same Skaljard mechanic of level 19 until released. If you play Slave PC to promote your story and enjoy the RP dynamics, we should make it more real.

But anyway, these are just my personal opinion.

[Kuma]

"itd be better if the in game interactions for quarter signs reflected server rules"

[...]

"here is a spirited discussion on the entire ecosystem of slavery"

Never change, Arelith forums.